Judas was saved and then lost his salvation

[LoveofTruth]

I think you still need to show that Judas had the Spirit with him. God's Word says that one cannot serve to masters, they will love one and hate the other. So if Judas had the Spirit, he wouldn't have betrayed Christ.

when we talk of having the Spirit, you miss the tri unity of the Godhead. jesus said Judas and the 11 had the Spirit of the father in them, and all believers have the Spirit of Chris in them, but not all Ot saints had the Holy Ghost baptism. Again there is much confusion taught by some about these things and many scriptures needed to clarify this error they teach

 

[LoveofTruth]

I'm not going to go find them. You can list them out.

Peter said when asked by Jesus who do men say that i am, he said jesus was the Christ the Son of God.

We know that John tells us what this means and he says,

'15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God." ( 1 John 4:15 )

and

"5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him." ( 1 John 5:1)

and jesus said

"3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God....11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness." ( john 3:3,11
(notice that jesus said he speaks of things they have seen ( present tense)

and unless a person is born again they cannot see the kingdom, but Jesus said to the disciples

"13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." ( Matthew 13;13-16)

and Jesus said to another

Luke 19:9
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham."

and

Abraham had the seed Christ in him

"16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ....29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." ( Galatians 3)

"12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost," ( John 17:12)

Psalm 119:50
This is my comfort in my affliction: for thy word hath quickened me.

just a small sample of such things proving the new birth before the cross ( though not without it in time) and salvation before the cross.

 

[Winken]

Yes it does.

to show that Judas was a sheep sent to the lost sheep shatters the eternal security false doctrine.

understand me i truly believe the false doctrine taught by the eternal security teachers is dangerous and false and misrepresents the truth of God and strengthens the hands of sinners as the false prophets did in old days.

Too many Christians err, and do err greatly, when they combine the message of Jesus to the Hebrew Folk, calling them back to the Abrahamic Covenant. The amazing Promise of God, in that Covenant, was that He was on the brink of sending the Hebrew Messiah, and that He did so with the advent of Jesus on the earth in that day. National Israel turned Him down; some among the Jews, however, were baptized, accepting Jesus as the Promised Messiah and preparing to meet Him in that day. They will, of course, meet Him one day.

Following the Cross, Jesus called upon Saul (Apostle Paul) to take the message of Salvation by Grace through Faith to everyone, everywhere. This was not the Jewish Promised Messiah message; it was the Grace through Faith message.

Simply understand, in scripture, WHO the audience was, and the purpose of what Jesus was saying to them.

Simply understand, in scripture, WHO the audience has been since the Cross, and the purpose of God's message in Romans 10:8-13. Read Romans 8:1. There are sooooooooo many Holy Scriptures underlining the eternal security of the Believer. Read John 3:16-17, John 5:24, Ephesians 2:8-9. We are not saved or sustained by works. Salvation is the free GIFT of God through Jesus, our Lord.

Does that mean that we can confess Him and then go on about our sinful way? Of course not. A Spiritually-birthed, born-again Believer is delivered from the penalty of sin, and the continuous desire to engage in it. Yes, we falter. Yes, we have the penalty paid at the Cross for sin/sins. Yes, we have 1 John 1:9 when we falter. God is Gracious and Good. We can't deny Him. He sustains us, and that for eternity.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Too many Christians err, and do err greatly, when they combine the message of Jesus to the Hebrew Folk, calling them back to the Abrahamic Covenant. The amazing Promise of God, in that Covenant, was that He was on the brink of sending the Hebrew Messiah, and that He did so with the advent of Jesus on the earth in that day. National Israel turned Him down; some among the Jews, however, were baptized, accepting Jesus as the Promised Messiah and preparing to meet Him in that day. They will, of course, meet Him one day.

Following the Cross, Jesus called upon Saul (Apostle Paul) to take the message of Salvation by Grace through Faith to everyone, everywhere. This was not the Jewish Promised Messiah message; it was the Grace through Faith message.

Simply understand, in scripture, WHO the audience was, and the purpose of what Jesus was saying to them.

Simply understand, in scripture, WHO the audience has been since the Cross, and the purpose of God's message in Romans 10:8-13. Read Romans 8:1. There are sooooooooo many Holy Scriptures underlining the eternal security of the Believer. Read John 3:3, John 5:2, Ephesians 2:8-9. We are not saved or sustained by works. Salvation is the free GIFT of God through Jesus, our Lord.

Does that mean that we can confess Him and then go on about our sinful way? Of course not. A Spiritually-birthed, born-again Believer is delivered from the penalty of sin, and the continuous desire to engage in it. Yes, we falter. Yes, we have the penalty paid at the Cross for sin/sins. Yes, we have 1 John 1:9 when we falter. God is Gracious and Good. We can't deny Him. He sustains us, and that for eternity.

There are so many scriptures showing a believer can fall away and lose salvation, and so many warnings its ia amazing how any could miss them .

heres an interesting verse

2 Chronicles 15:2
And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The Lord is with you, while ye be with him; and ifye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you."

It shows that God does not leave us but we can forsake him, as clear as it gets.

and yes the Ot saints could be saved and born again and born again by the word of God.

They were called "saints" for a reason.

another good verse to consider for all believers is 1 Cor 6:9,10 and Galatians 5 about the same issue.

 

[Winken]

There are so many scriptures showing a believer can fall away and lose salvation, and so many warnings its ia amazing how any could miss them .

heres an interesting verse

2 Chronicles 15:2
And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The Lord is with you, while ye be with him; and ifye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you."

It shows that God does not leave us but we can forsake him, as clear as it gets.

and yes the Ot saints could be saved and born again and born again by the word of God.

They were called "saints" for a reason.

another good verse to consider for all believers is 1 Cor 6:9,10 and Galatians 5 about the same issue.

I'm surprised that you refer to those. 2 Chronicles 15:2 obviously addresses a Jewish audience in that day. In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Paul addresses an unsaved audience. In Galatians 5 Paul is addressing Jews. Context, context, context!!!

Past my bedtime. Be blessed in Him!

 

[ScottA]

all OT saints were saved and had the spirit of Chris in them, or else they were none of his. They were all born again and by the word of God.

Again, that is not the definition of "saved." You are confusing the "called" and "chosen" with "saved."

and yes to belong to the father and jesus and be a sheep of jesus means you are saved. jesus said his sheep hear his voice and he gives unto them eternal life. Judas was one of those sheep as clearly we see in matthew 10

Again, you are confusing "following" with "saved." "Following" after hearing His voice, is the beginning - not the end. "Saved" does not come until the "end." Matthew 24:13

i am convinced most of the eternal security groups that i speak with have not even considered matthew 10 about Judas the way it is presented here. or the angels that sinned and are headed for the lake of fire/

Matthew 10 refers to the lost of Israel (which includes Judas and the other apostles) - who are "the first" who are "last" (and "the dead in Christ") after the gentile believers (the born again of the spirit of God - after the coming of the Holy Spirit - whom are "the living" "in Christ") Matthew 20:16, 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 1 Thessalonians 4:15.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I'm surprised that you refer to those. 2 Chronicles 15:2 obviously addresses a Jewish audience in that day. In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Paul addresses an unsaved audience. In Galatians 5 Paul is addressing Jews. Context, context, context!!!

Past my bedtime. Be blessed in Him!

the verse in 2 Chronicles, shows that God is with men while they be with him. The fact of a man being a Jew is not this issue there.

1 Cor 6 and Galatians are speaking to believers and the warning is still the same. If a believers is overcome and becomes and idolater they are deceived if they think they will enter the kingdom of God. Whether they are jews or gentiles, which there was both and a mixed group, is not the issue. It is a saved person will be deceived if they are in unbelief and hardness of heart and sin.

and in hebrews three, speaking to believers ( whether they are jews or gentiles is not the issue there either) they are holy brethren in Christ and can depart from the living God through and evil heart of unbelief. It is not works that cause men to depart but unbelief brought on by the deceitfulness of sin and hardening of heart.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Again, that is not the definition of "saved." You are confusing the "called" and "chosen" with "saved."
Again, you are confusing "following" with "saved." "Following" after hearing His voice, is the beginning - not the end. "Saved" does not come until the "end." Matthew 24:13
Matthew 10 refers to the lost of Israel (which includes Judas and the other apostles) - who are "the first" who are "last" (and "the dead in Christ") after the gentile believers (the born again of the spirit of God - after the coming of the Holy Spirit - whom are "the living" "in Christ") Matthew 20:16, 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 1 Thessalonians 4:15.

enduring to the end is true to be finally saved. But we are saved now 1 Cor 15;1-5, by believing the gospel, and we are being saved and shall be saved as we overcome to the end. All by grace through faith as we abide in Christ and continue in the faith and make our calling and election sure .

Jesus said this day salvation is come to this house and he said none of the 11 apostles was lost ( before the cross) .

and that last part about the first and last is confusing, not sure what your trying to say there

 

[ScottA]

enduring to the end is true to be finally saved. But we are saved now 1 Cor 15;1-5, by believing the gospel, and we are being saved and shall be saved as we overcome to the end. All by grace through faith as we abide in Christ and continue in the faith and make our calling and election sure .

Jesus said this day salvation is come to this house and he said none of the 11 apostles was lost ( before the cross) .

and that last part about the first and last is confusing, not sure what your trying to say there

In all kindness and love, I have to say that it is as if you are dancing on the apex of the timeless day of salvation - which all of scripture does not elaborate any more than to say "today" and "that day", and seeing your watch spinning wildly, you are attempting to put in order what has already been put in order...and doing poorly. If any of this is "confusing" to you...you should not be making claims of any kind.

Suffice to say, if we "were" both crucified and raised up with Christ - the order and timing of things, is not what it appears. Nevertheless, if you can receive it, I have laid it out for you in truth.

 

[Daryl Gleason]

Judas was once saved and then lost his salvation. This understanding defeats once and for all the false doctrine of eternal security or perseverance of the saints as it is taught by many.

I do like your chosen username and the line you've chosen below it.

It is my sincere hope that, if you do love Truth, you will have realized and internalized the truth that we should not think we know anything (1 Corinthians 8:2), and thus your spirit remains teachable.

Would you say that your spirit is teachable? To be fair, if you were to ask me the same question, I would say that I certainly hope so.

With due respect, I do feel that your understanding is not correct and that the verses you quote, along with others I will provide, do not in fact support your position.

Since you have organized your understanding point by point, I will address it in the same manner.

1. Judas once belonged to the Father and was given to Jesus. Jesus said this when he was speaking of the twelveapostles in John 17,

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;...” John 17:6


“Thine they were”, past tense, Judas was included in that.

Sorry, no. At the time Jesus spoke the words in John 17:6, Judas had already left to betray him (back in John 13:26-27).

Also, please complete the verse: "...and they have kept Your word."

Judas did not keep the Father's word.

2. Jesus called Judas one of “HIS” twelve disciples as we read;


“And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples”

Matthew 10:1

Notice first, that all twelves of the disciples were “HIS”. They all belonged to Jesus, and none of them belonged to the devil at this time. Matthew did not lie when he wrote this, Nor was Jesus ignorant of who were HIS apostles. They were all HIS, (Judas included).

Yes, Judas was one of Jesus's twelve disciples, but he was not one of the chosen. Jesus had already known from the beginning who was going to betray him -- and called Judas anyway to fulfill Scripture. John 6:64, John 17:12, and John 13:18.

3. Jesus gave all HIS twelve disciples power, Judas included,

“he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Matthew 10:1

Here we see that all twelve of the apostles, (Judas included), were given power. And this power included casting out devils. This shows that Judas was not a devil at this time, for Satan cannot cast out Satan, as Jesus told us. And Judas had power to heal as well.

This is true but not relevant. The sons of the Pharisees, some itinerant Jewish exorcists, and the seven sons of Sceva were also casting out evil spirits, and they were not saved. Matthew 12:27 and Acts 19:13-16.

4. Judas was an apostle,

“Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter,...and Judas Iscariot, ...” Matthew 10:2-4

An apostle is a sent one of God and a high calling. This is a gift from God to believers. Notice that all TWELVE were called apostles including Judas, not just the other eleven.

True but not relevant. What is relevant here is that Judas never believed in Jesus (and thus was never saved -- John 6:64 again).

The name of Jesus has power, and, as in point #3, even those who are not saved may use it. Doing miracles does not in any way indicate that one is saved. Matthew 7:22.

And you do know that there were/are false apostles, no? 2 Corinthians 11:13.

5. Judas was sent forth and ordained,


“These twelve Jesus sent forth,...”

Matthew 10:5

“And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,” Mark 3:14


Jesus sent all twelve of them forth to preach, Judas included. Jesus also equipped all of them to preach, Judas included. He “ORDAINED” them also, Judas included. To be ordained means that he recognized all of them and approved of them, Judas included.

True but not relevant. See #4.

6. Judas freely received and could cast out devils, heal the sick, cleanse lepers, raise the dead, so he could also freely give as well.

“And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.” Matthew 10:7,8

This shows that he was a partaker of this ministry, obtaining part of the ministry like the others. To obtain means he was able to minister.


“...concerning Judas ...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. “ Acts 1:17

To obtain part of the ministry you must minister, and the ministry Judas had was spoken of in Matthew 10 and Mark 3.

True but not relevant. See #4.

7. Jesus called Judas one of his sheep! THIS IS A BIG POINT!!

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying .... go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ...Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves...” Matthew 10:16

This was spoken to the twelve apostles, and Judas was one of the twelve sent as a sheep to the lost sheep. This shows that Judas was saved and had eternal life at this time, because he was a sheep of Jesus. And if he was lost, how could he help the lost sheep? Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and they know him.

“ My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life” John 10:27,28

Judas heard his voice and followed him and was a sheep as Jesus said, and so he had eternal life at the beginning of his ministry. Only the biased reader would ignore this

No, he did not. in Matthew 10:16, Jesus told his apostles that they were being sent out as sheep in the midst of wolves, not that they were his sheep. This is a totally different context, with a totally different meaning.

What Jesus said was exactly true: they were indeed being sent out as sheep among wolves. This cannot in any way be construed to state or imply that they were his sheep. The English language does not support this (and I speak as an English teacher here).

8. Judas had the peace of God to give to others, this was spoken to the twelve, Judas included,

“...let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.” Matthew 10:13

Not necessarily. Jesus said to "...let your peace come upon it...", not the peace of God. You're making an assumption that Judas had the peace of God, but that is not what the verse says.

Judas did not have the peace of God, because he never believed in Jesus. John 6:64 again.

9. He also had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him, spoken to the twelve Judas included,

“For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.” Matthew 10:20

Sorry, no. Jesus was at this point speaking of the future of the apostles; none of what he described is documented as happening on this occasion of their being sent out.

Yes, the holy spirit would indeed be speaking through the apostles when these foretold events happened, but Judas was long dead by then.

10. Judas belonged to the household of Jesus, as we read here spoken to the twelve Judas included.

“them of his household?” Matthew 10:25

Judas never believed in Jesus, so he was never a member of his household. John 6:64 once again. Jesus was speaking of those who were in fact of his household.

11. Judas also was a familiar friend of Jesus once and was trusted by Jesus,

“ Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.” Psalms 41:9

Jesus told us that Psalm 41:9 was referring to Judas going against him,

“...but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.’ John 13:8

This proves that Judas was not always a devil or thief as some say. He was once trusted and a familiar friend of Jesus.

Jesus does not call devils familiar friends, and he does not trust them.

Sorry, no. This is human reasoning. I've already shown that Jesus foreknew who would betray him, so Judas's betrayal came as no surprise to him.

Now, did Jesus treat Judas as a trusted friend? Absolutely. This was all so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

12. He was blotted out of the book of life. In Acts 1 we read,

“concerning Judas...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.... For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.” Acts 1:16-20

The Psalm mentioned here, refers to Judas,

“Let their habitation be desolate... Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.” Psalms 69:25,28

He was once in the book of life with the righteous and then blotted out. So he was once saved and had eternal life then lost it.

Sorry, no. Acts 1:20 refers specifically to Psalms 69:25 and Psalms 109:8, and to those verses only. Psalms 69:28 is specifically not mentioned.

So, no, Judas's name was not blotted out of the book of the living. It was never there, as he never believed in Jesus.

13. He fell by transgression, showing that he was not always fallen. But rather that he fell at a certain point in time. And he fell by transgression, it was his own will and choice.

“That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell “ Acts 1:25

Judas was doomed to destruction to fulfill Scripture (John 17:12). It was by his act of transgression, foreknown by Jesus, that he fell. And there is nothing in Acts 1:25 that indicates he had any choice in the transgression; it simply states the act.

Also, please read the rest of the verse: "... that he might go to his own place" -- the place he had always been destined to go. This actually implies that there was no choice.

14. He betrayed Jesus at a certain point in time,

“Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.” “Matthew 26:48


To “betray”, means to once have the trust and to go against that trust, as Judas did. He could not have betrayed that trust if he was always a devil. Because Jesus doesn’t trust devils.

Near the end of Jesus ministry he said Judas was a devil, but this he spoke of Judas who should betray him, future tense. We read about this near the end of Jesus ministry in John 6:71. And “then Satan entered into him.” Luke 22:3, this , was at the end of Jesus ministry not at the beginning as we saw already.

So Judas fell away and lost his salvation.


so to sum up just some of the points

1. Judas Belonged to the Father before given to Jesus
2. Judas was a disciple of Jesus at the beginning
3. Judas was an apostle
4. Judas was a a sheep sent to the lost sheep
5. Judas was given power to cast out devils, raise the dead heal the sick ( and satan cannot cast put Satan as jesus said)
6. Judas had the peace of God to give
7. Judas was a familiar friend of Jesus whom he once trusted
8. Judas had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him when needed
9. Judas was written in the book of life once
10. Judas fell by transgression, and was blotted out

Of course he did. And Jesus originally accepted him knowing full well what he would do. How else would Scripture be fulfilled?


In conclusion, to speak frankly, every single point originally made has been shown to be either incorrect or irrelevant. You appear to be trying to make the verses you quoted fit what you desire to be true, but they cannot be made to do so.

It is my hope that you will ask for the wisdom of God (James 1:5) and will deeply and prayerfully consider what I have submitted here before God with an open mind and heart.

In Christ,
Daryl

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

when a person enters into unbelief they open themselves to satan, and the actual betrayal, starts in the heart but is done when Judas actually betrayed Jesus. The issue is not the timing or when Satan entered into him. But the fact that he once had the trust of jesus and was a sheep and saved and then betrayed Jesus and had his name blotted out of the book of life and went to his own place and it was better he had not ben born.

There is nothing to suggest Judas entered unbelief. Even Satan and demons recognize that God is real and Christ is his son. Judas opened himself up to Satan by his wickedness, John 12:6 says he was embezzling money from the common fund. His weakness was clearly greed.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Judas was once saved and then lost his salvation. This understanding defeats once and for all the false doctrine of eternal security or perseverance of the saints as it is taught by many.

1. Judas once belonged to the Father and was given to Jesus. Jesus said this when he was speaking of the twelveapostles in John 17,

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;...” John 17:6


“Thine they were”, past tense, Judas was included in that.


2. Jesus called Judas one of “HIS” twelve disciples as we read;


“And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples”

Matthew 10:1

Notice first, that all twelves of the disciples were “HIS”. They all belonged to Jesus, and none of them belonged to the devil at this time. Matthew did not lie when he wrote this, Nor was Jesus ignorant of who were HIS apostles. They were all HIS, (Judas included).


3. Jesus gave all HIS twelve disciples power, Judas included,

“he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Matthew 10:1

Here we see that all twelve of the apostles, (Judas included), were given power. And this power included casting out devils. This shows that Judas was not a devil at this time, for Satan cannot cast out Satan, as Jesus told us. And Judas had power to heal as well.


4. Judas was an apostle,

“Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter,...and Judas Iscariot, ...” Matthew 10:2-4

An apostle is a sent one of God and a high calling. This is a gift from God to believers. Notice that all TWELVE were called apostles including Judas, not just the other eleven.


5. Judas was sent forth and ordained,


“These twelve Jesus sent forth,...”

Matthew 10:5

“And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,” Mark 3:14


Jesus sent all twelve of them forth to preach, Judas included. Jesus also equipped all of them to preach, Judas included. He “ORDAINED” them also, Judas included. To be ordained means that he recognized all of them and approved of them, Judas included.


6. Judas freely received and could cast out devils, heal the sick, cleanse lepers, raise the dead, so he could also freely give as well.

“And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.” Matthew 10:7,8

This shows that he was a partaker of this ministry, obtaining part of the ministry like the others. To obtain means he was able to minister.


“...concerning Judas ...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. “ Acts 1:17

To obtain part of the ministry you must minister, and the ministry Judas had was spoken of in Matthew 10 and Mark 3.


7. Jesus called Judas one of his sheep! THIS IS A BIG POINT!!

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying .... go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ...Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves...” Matthew 10:16

This was spoken to the twelve apostles, and Judas was one of the twelve sent as a sheep to the lost sheep. This shows that Judas was saved and had eternal life at this time, because he was a sheep of Jesus. And if he was lost, how could he help the lost sheep? Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and they know him.

“ My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life” John 10:27,28

Judas heard his voice and followed him and was a sheep as Jesus said, and so he had eternal life at the beginning of his ministry. Only the biased reader would ignore this


8. Judas had the peace of God to give to others, this was spoken to the twelve, Judas included,

“...let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.” Matthew 10:13


9. He also had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him, spoken to the twelve Judas included,

“For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.” Matthew 10:20

10. Judas belonged to the household of Jesus, as we read here spoken to the twelve Judas included.

“them of his household?” Matthew 10:25


11. Judas also was a familiar friend of Jesus once and was trusted by Jesus,

“ Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.” Psalms 41:9

Jesus told us that Psalm 41:9 was referring to Judas going against him,

“...but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.’ John 13:8

This proves that Judas was not always a devil or thief as some say. He was once trusted and a familiar friend of Jesus.

Jesus does not call devils familiar friends, and he does not trust them.


12. He was blotted out of the book of life. In Acts 1 we read,

“concerning Judas...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.... For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.” Acts 1:16-20

The Psalm mentioned here, refers to Judas,

“Let their habitation be desolate... Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.” Psalms 69:25,28

He was once in the book of life with the righteous and then blotted out. So he was once saved and had eternal life then lost it.


13. He fell by transgression, showing that he was not always fallen. But rather that he fell at a certain point in time. And he fell by transgression, it was his own will and choice.

“That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell “ Acts 1:25


14. He betrayed Jesus at a certain point in time,

“Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.” “Matthew 26:48


To “betray”, means to once have the trust and to go against that trust, as Judas did. He could not have betrayed that trust if he was always a devil. Because Jesus doesn’t trust devils.

Near the end of Jesus ministry he said Judas was a devil, but this he spoke of Judas who should betray him, future tense. We read about this near the end of Jesus ministry in John 6:71. And “then Satan entered into him.” Luke 22:3, this , was at the end of Jesus ministry not at the beginning as we saw already.

So Judas fell away and lost his salvation.


so to sum up just some of the points

1. Judas Belonged to the Father before given to Jesus
2. Judas was a disciple of Jesus at the beginning
3. Judas was an apostle
4. Judas was a a sheep sent to the lost sheep
5. Judas was given power to cast out devils, raise the dead heal the sick ( and satan cannot cast put Satan as jesus said)
6. Judas had the peace of God to give
7. Judas was a familiar friend of Jesus whom he once trusted
8. Judas had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him when needed
9. Judas was written in the book of life once
10. Judas fell by transgression, and was blotted out

I'm not sure we have the authority to answer this question. We can only know of our own salvation through Jesus. It's not our job to say who will and who won't go to heaven. It's our job to introduce people to Jesus.

 

[aiki]

I answered this before if you check. There is so much i can say about it. But all were born again and saved by the word of God in the new birth. even men like David said Gods word quickened him

Being born again, being saved, is something unique to the New Testament and is contingent upon the atoning work of Christ on the cross. There were some in the Old Testament upon whom God's Spirit rested, but they were not saved in the sense in which post-Calvary believers are saved until after Christ was resurrected. Judas betrayed Jesus and then killed himself before Jesus had atoned for sin on the cross and was resurrected. Judas, then, was never saved and could not, therefore, lose his salvation.

Selah.

 

[Radrook]

Judas seems to have been prophetically predestined for that role.
Doesn't the scripture say that Jesus knew from the start the one that would betray him?

John 13:11 ►
New International Version
For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

Part of this knowledge was prophetic and part perhaps because Judas demonstrated to be a thief from the start. When the woman anointed Jesus with expensive ointments he protested and argued that it should have been given as a contribution instead. The Apostle John tells us:

He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.” (John 12:6 NIV)


In any case, being the Son of God he was privy to knowledge others were not.

Judas Iscariot, who became the traitor, was personally prophesied, centuries before he was born, as well as to his face by the Messiah as his betrayal was in progress. The Messiah did so by quoting a prophet, so "that the scripture may be fulfilled."

"13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he. 13:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. 13:21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
13:22 Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake. 13:23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. 13:24 Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.
13:25 He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?
13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 13:27 And after the sop Satan entered into him.
Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. 13:28 Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. 13:29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. 13:30 He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night." (John 13:18-30 KJV)
http://www.keyway.ca/htm2015/20150101.htm

 

[Radrook]

I really don't know that we can say much for certain about Judas, given the conflicted & limited info presented in the Bible - let alone whether he was (ever) "saved." I don't find proof-texting very convincing.

I do wonder about Judas though. I think most Christians would agree he betrayed Jesus. I wonder if Judas wanted forgiveness? If Jesus could forgive Peter's denial, could he forgive Judas's betrayal? All I can say is that I believe God is merciful & can forgive whoever he wants. It's not for me to speculate on any one person.

It definitely is a problematic situation to unravel conclusively since so many conflicting ideas can be brought to bear on it. Once saved always saved, predestination, foreknowledge, Apostleship appointed by God. You name it-it is involved. Yikes!

 

[toLiJC]

Judas was once saved and then lost his salvation. This understanding defeats once and for all the false doctrine of eternal security or perseverance of the saints as it is taught by many.

1. Judas once belonged to the Father and was given to Jesus. Jesus said this when he was speaking of the twelveapostles in John 17,

“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me;...” John 17:6


“Thine they were”, past tense, Judas was included in that.


2. Jesus called Judas one of “HIS” twelve disciples as we read;


“And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples”

Matthew 10:1

Notice first, that all twelves of the disciples were “HIS”. They all belonged to Jesus, and none of them belonged to the devil at this time. Matthew did not lie when he wrote this, Nor was Jesus ignorant of who were HIS apostles. They were all HIS, (Judas included).


3. Jesus gave all HIS twelve disciples power, Judas included,

“he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Matthew 10:1

Here we see that all twelve of the apostles, (Judas included), were given power. And this power included casting out devils. This shows that Judas was not a devil at this time, for Satan cannot cast out Satan, as Jesus told us. And Judas had power to heal as well.


4. Judas was an apostle,

“Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter,...and Judas Iscariot, ...” Matthew 10:2-4

An apostle is a sent one of God and a high calling. This is a gift from God to believers. Notice that all TWELVE were called apostles including Judas, not just the other eleven.


5. Judas was sent forth and ordained,


“These twelve Jesus sent forth,...”

Matthew 10:5

“And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,” Mark 3:14


Jesus sent all twelve of them forth to preach, Judas included. Jesus also equipped all of them to preach, Judas included. He “ORDAINED” them also, Judas included. To be ordained means that he recognized all of them and approved of them, Judas included.


6. Judas freely received and could cast out devils, heal the sick, cleanse lepers, raise the dead, so he could also freely give as well.

“And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.” Matthew 10:7,8

This shows that he was a partaker of this ministry, obtaining part of the ministry like the others. To obtain means he was able to minister.


“...concerning Judas ...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. “ Acts 1:17

To obtain part of the ministry you must minister, and the ministry Judas had was spoken of in Matthew 10 and Mark 3.


7. Jesus called Judas one of his sheep! THIS IS A BIG POINT!!

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying .... go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ...Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves...” Matthew 10:16

This was spoken to the twelve apostles, and Judas was one of the twelve sent as a sheep to the lost sheep. This shows that Judas was saved and had eternal life at this time, because he was a sheep of Jesus. And if he was lost, how could he help the lost sheep? Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and they know him.

“ My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life” John 10:27,28

Judas heard his voice and followed him and was a sheep as Jesus said, and so he had eternal life at the beginning of his ministry. Only the biased reader would ignore this


8. Judas had the peace of God to give to others, this was spoken to the twelve, Judas included,

“...let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.” Matthew 10:13


9. He also had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him, spoken to the twelve Judas included,

“For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.” Matthew 10:20

10. Judas belonged to the household of Jesus, as we read here spoken to the twelve Judas included.

“them of his household?” Matthew 10:25


11. Judas also was a familiar friend of Jesus once and was trusted by Jesus,

“ Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.” Psalms 41:9

Jesus told us that Psalm 41:9 was referring to Judas going against him,

“...but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.’ John 13:8

This proves that Judas was not always a devil or thief as some say. He was once trusted and a familiar friend of Jesus.

Jesus does not call devils familiar friends, and he does not trust them.


12. He was blotted out of the book of life. In Acts 1 we read,

“concerning Judas...For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.... For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.” Acts 1:16-20

The Psalm mentioned here, refers to Judas,

“Let their habitation be desolate... Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.” Psalms 69:25,28

He was once in the book of life with the righteous and then blotted out. So he was once saved and had eternal life then lost it.


13. He fell by transgression, showing that he was not always fallen. But rather that he fell at a certain point in time. And he fell by transgression, it was his own will and choice.

“That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell “ Acts 1:25


14. He betrayed Jesus at a certain point in time,

“Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.” “Matthew 26:48


To “betray”, means to once have the trust and to go against that trust, as Judas did. He could not have betrayed that trust if he was always a devil. Because Jesus doesn’t trust devils.

Near the end of Jesus ministry he said Judas was a devil, but this he spoke of Judas who should betray him, future tense. We read about this near the end of Jesus ministry in John 6:71. And “then Satan entered into him.” Luke 22:3, this , was at the end of Jesus ministry not at the beginning as we saw already.

So Judas fell away and lost his salvation.


so to sum up just some of the points

1. Judas Belonged to the Father before given to Jesus
2. Judas was a disciple of Jesus at the beginning
3. Judas was an apostle
4. Judas was a a sheep sent to the lost sheep
5. Judas was given power to cast out devils, raise the dead heal the sick ( and satan cannot cast put Satan as jesus said)
6. Judas had the peace of God to give
7. Judas was a familiar friend of Jesus whom he once trusted
8. Judas had the Spirit of the Father speaking in him when needed
9. Judas was written in the book of life once
10. Judas fell by transgression, and was blotted out

his soul has been saved, albeit posthumously, but unfortunately lost the chance to win a greater reward in heaven

Acts 1:18 "Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity;"

Blessings

 

[LoveofTruth]

"Saved" does not come until the "end." Matthew 24:13
Matthew 10 refers to the lost of Israel (which includes Judas and the other apostles) - who are "the first" who are "last" (and "the dead in Christ") after the gentile believers (the born again of the spirit of God - after the coming of the Holy Spirit - whom are "the living" "in Christ") Matthew 20:16, 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 1 Thessalonians 4:15.

you need to be corrected here my friend, and to examine scripture more closely.

In Matthew 10 Jesus says

"...go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel....16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves:" ( Matthew 10:6,16)

here you can see clearly that the apostles he sent were not lost sheep, but found saved sheep. This is so clear to the unbiased reader. The word "Lost" means to destroy fully to perish . The opposite of lost is found or saved. Saved meaning to be complete or made whole, to deliver, protect heal, preserve.

we see in scripture that we are saved, being saved and shall be saved as we overcome to the end by continual faith.

"15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain."(1 Corinthians 15:1,2 KJV)

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God"

Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel,..."

1 Timothy 2:15
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

Romans 5:9
"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

and

1 Samuel 2:1
And Hannah prayed, and said, My heart rejoiceth in the Lord, mine horn is exalted in the Lord: my mouth is enlarged over mine enemies; because I rejoice in thy salvation."

Psalm 18:46
The Lord liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.

Exodus 15:2
The Lord is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.

Isaiah 12:2
Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation."

Luke 19:9
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham."

"
John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life..." (present tense "Hath" before the cross)

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (hath, present tense, and "Is: passed from death to life, present tense.

You need to go back again and learn the first principles of the oracles of God and have need of milk not meat.

You also mention something about the first and the last and the dead in Christ. That expression the dead in Christ shall rise first as Paul spoke refers to all believers from Adam until Christ comes who have died in the faith and salvation in Christ. If any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of his. Abraham had the Spirit of Christ in him , the seed as all believers do Galatians 3.

 

[LoveofTruth]

his soul has been saved, albeit posthumously, but unfortunately lost the chance to win a greater reward in heaven

Acts 1:18 "Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity;"

Blessings

No I believe s scripture shows that he went to his own place and better for him that he was never born and he was blotted out of the book of the living ( or the book of life) and no longer written with the righteous, for only they are in that book. Psalms 69, also referred to in Acts 1 about Judas. Jesus said the 11 were not lost but Judas was lost in John 17

 

[LoveofTruth]

Judas seems to have been prophetically predestined for that role.
Doesn't the scripture say that Jesus knew from the start the one that would betray him?

John 13:11 ►
New International Version
For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

Part of this knowledge was prophetic and part perhaps because Judas demonstrated to be a thief from the start. When the woman anointed Jesus with expensive ointments he protested and argued that it should have been given as a contribution instead. The Apostle John tells us:

He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.” (John 12:6 NIV)


In any case, being the Son of God he was privy to knowledge others were not.

When prophecy is shown, it shows that God knows all things ahead of time, and we all agree on that, God is infinitely knowledgeable about all. But that does not mean that Judas was not once saved then lost it. God knew he would fall in time. In John the stories are after three years of ministry already and near the end of jesus death and resurrection. In mMatthew we see the beginning of Judas ministry.

If we think of Gods knowing he also knew that Lucifer would fall and do so much damage and end up in the lake of fire. Yes at one time Lucifer was perfect in all his was and a beautiful angelic being, a covering cherub. But God still made him perfect at the start and worked with him and he was perfect in ALL his ways, until iniquity was found in him.

So because God knew that Lucifer would fall does not mean that he wanted that and Lucifer still walked with God at one time and was in the Light. Therefore God could call Judas as a saint and saved man at the beginning and in whom Christ trusted and he was a familiar friend of jesus and then he betrayed that trust and love. The word betrayed means to go against the trust you once had. This can only happen if he once had that trust. "My familiar friend in whom I once trusted hath lifted up his heel against me"

 

[LoveofTruth]

Being born again, being saved, is something unique to the New Testament and is contingent upon the atoning work of Christ on the cross. There were some in the Old Testament upon whom God's Spirit rested, but they were not saved in the sense in which post-Calvary believers are saved until after Christ was resurrected. Judas betrayed Jesus and then killed himself before Jesus had atoned for sin on the cross and was resurrected. Judas, then, was never saved and could not, therefore, lose his salvation.

Selah.

No this is not true at all, and this is basic belief you must learn about, salvation has always been the same from the beginning. All are born again by the word of God David said "thy word hath quickened me", all believers are quicken by the word of God. The word is quick and powerful and this is the seed that is sown in the heart, which when a person receives it they are saved. Jesus said except a man be born again they cannot see the kingdom. But he told his disciples "your eyes see" but to those without ( without the kingdom) things are shown in parables, lest they should see and hear and be converted and healed.


1 Samuel 2:1
And Hannah prayed, and said, My heart rejoiceth in the Lord, mine horn is exalted in the Lord: my mouth is enlarged over mine enemies; because I rejoice in thy salvation."

Psalm 18:46
The Lord liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.

Exodus 15:2
The Lord is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.

Isaiah 12:2
Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord Jehovah is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation."

Luke 19:9
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham."

"
John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life..." (present tense "Hath" before the cross)

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (hath, present tense, and "Is: passed from death to life, present tense.