Is salvation conditional?

[JacksBratt]

After accepting God's sacrifice, his son Jesus the Christ. And from there acquiring salvation from sin and destruction/hell, is it on the condition that you remain faithful to Jesus?

No, salvation is totally unconditional. Unfortunately our human minds cannot wrap our heads around this simple fact.

It is love beyond our comprehension. We, as humans, always want someone to "pay" for their wrong doings, sins, mean actions etc. God, however, is God and tells us to come as we are, no prerequisites and no conditions.

We are saved and once saved always saved...

Think of it this way. If I receive salvation, by no action of my own. If I cannot physically, earthly, DO anything to achieve salvation. Then, how can I DO anything to lose it?

Earthly actions do not save you, earthly actions cannot remove the gift of salvation from your soul.

The only thing that would do that, and this will be impossible for the truly saved, is to take the mark of the beast OR blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

 

[Purpurin]

More or less.

Another related question. Do you think that assurance of salvation by grace can be understood by a believer as entitlement, or "licence to sin" because you are saved no matter what and you can never lose your salvation?

To be frank, I see it quite a bit in Christians who believe that way. They're careless about sin, if not outright sinful. They develop a corrupt, hypocritical, arrogant, self-righteous character. They have removed restrains, feeling that they are enjoying complete freedom to do virtually anything without serious repercussions. John 8:32-36, Galatians 5:13 Is any of this possible, you think, as the result of OSAS doctrine?

I do believe that there would be people/ christians that miss use this as a "license to sin" unfortunately there's nothing we can do but to help remind them.
To be honest when I see this, I don't think they're serious about following Christ...

In my opinion, when someone decided to follow Jesus and believe in Him, they should try their best to do what they're supposed to do (just like how kids would try their best to not disappoint their parent). To be more like Christ and spread the word of God to as many people as possible.
With saying that, nobody is perfect and there may be times where we would still sin (hopefully lesser and lesser as time goes by)

Personally, I believed and want to follow God because He first loved me. So I will love others and show them how God has loved me.
Hopefully with this, other people can see that God loves them too.

 

[Purpurin]

I don't know if I believe that....Im studying Dallas Willards work and not sure...

For consider salvation here and now....as when Jesus said his kingdom was at hand.......Many of us were brought up thinking that once you believed(the mental belief) that you were saved....But seeing that when salvation and eternal life is not just speaking in terms of what happens when you die but based as the quality of life lived...then....salvation takes on a whole new concept....saved or not saved from present day conflict..or sin in your life now...as the effects it has on ones relationship with God....sin seperates us...it is walking in him where we would find peace......so..if you sometimes have peace...and sometimes don't that would intail being saved over and over.....and if what experiece as peace now....then wouldn't you expect to have future peace?

Sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean by eternal life is based on quality of life lived.
My understanding is that sin separates us from God. The only way for us to be with God is by not having sin (which is impossible as we are sinners). Therefore, God send Jesus to die on the cross, and whoever believes in Him will receive eternal life (once we die on earth)

Like what you said, by walking in Him we will find peace. It doesn't mean that trouble and suffering will then be gone forever. We are still human, trials and suffering is still part of life.
There would always be time where suffering and trial comes around, when we are put in this situation, we need to trust in God and with that we will find peace. It doesn't mean that we are "saved" again as we're already saved when we believes in Him.

Did I get this right? I'm not too sure if this answer your question?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I don't know if I believe that....Im studying Dallas Willards work and not sure...

For consider salvation here and now....as when Jesus said his kingdom was at hand.......Many of us were brought up thinking that once you believed(the mental belief) that you were saved....But seeing that when salvation and eternal life is not just speaking in terms of what happens when you die but based as the quality of life lived...then....salvation takes on a whole new concept....saved or not saved from present day conflict..or sin in your life now...as the effects it has on ones relationship with God....sin seperates us...it is walking in him where we would find peace......so..if you sometimes have peace...and sometimes don't that would intail being saved over and over.....and if what experiece as peace now....then wouldn't you expect to have future peace?

The Kingdom of God is at hand because we (those who are saved by Christ's blood) have 'God with us', the indwelling Holy Spirit. God, right now.

If our home is heaven, residing with Jesus Christ, in His perfect will, then when we are communing with Christ, doing His will as servants of our Savior, we have the Kingdom right now in a sense. We have God with us and we are doing His will on earth, as it is done in heaven. Part of the Lord's prayer.

Jesus said that if the earth were His home that His disciples would fight to keep Him from crucifixion. But since His home is heaven, they do not and we do not. We do not fight for the things of this world (carnal desires) as our home is in heaven (spiritual).

This is what I believe this verse is saying.

 

[ToBeLoved]

More or less.

I understand. No clear cut approach, no fixed how-to steps, but kind of "best effort" on the part of the believer, between them and God. Makes sense.

Yes, I understood well the idea of salvation once and forever. The Christians I know who had repeated experiences of "salvation" considered their last experience to be genuine and not the previous one(s), which were(was) not genuine due to lack of correct understanding of the gospel - or lack of trusting only the finished redemptive work of Jesus Christ on Calvary without adding own works as means of salvation. The "verification test" was whether or not they were doubting their salvation, which to them was a sign of no assurance. Assurance is guaranteed by the seal of the Holy Spirit, the non-removable pledge of eternal life, who constantly testifies to the spirit of the believer that he or she are God's child. 2 Corinthians 1:22, Romans 8:16.

Another related question. Do you think that assurance of salvation by grace can be understood by a believer as entitlement, or "licence to sin" because you are saved no matter what and you can never lose your salvation?

To be frank, I see it quite a bit in Christians who believe that way. They're careless about sin, if not outright sinful. They develop a corrupt, hypocritical, arrogant, self-righteous character. They have removed restrains, feeling that they are enjoying complete freedom to do virtually anything without serious repercussions. John 8:32-36, Galatians 5:13 Is any of this possible, you think, as the result of OSAS doctrine?

Let us not forget that there are rewards and crowns in heaven. Those who are choosing this careless, sinful practice are loosing out on God's plan and what kind of place Jesus is able to prepare for them. NO ONE is pulling a fast one on God. Our life and our deeds will be put to the test, by fire. What they did will matter as rewards and they will probably weep at their own loss, I'm sure.

See post #226

God's Word says our present suffering is nothing compared to the rewards that we will have and the glory in heaven.

 

[Hallstone]

That's absolutely great . Real changes in your lives, no, you think?

Religious financial agenda = Compromise, No Agenda = No Compromise. Simple Messianic Logic, but for me to have realized this, to me it is a miracle, and being a 61 year old Christian, I am just starting to understand what this means. And I see it as a Miraculous discovery, like some of the other truths that we have seen suppressed by the Orgs. It is for freedom that Christ set us free, but we must not make our freedom a smokescreen for selfish ambition, and worldliness.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Religious financial agenda = Compromise, No Agenda = No Compromise. Simple Messianic Logic, but for me to have realized this, to me it is a miracle, and being a 61 year old Christian, I am just starting to understand what this means. And I see it as a Miraculous discovery, like some of the other truths that we have seen suppressed by the Orgs. It is for freedom that Christ set us free, but we must not make our freedom a smokescreen for selfish ambition, and worldliness.

Man, it's so rare and refreshing to hear anything of this sort... Do you think that "ecclesia" Jesus was talking about is a Universal gathering, no matter where the individual members are located? John 4:23. As opposed to the idea of a locally organised body of believers. What do you think about the Pauline interpretation of church? Didn't they clearly think of it as an Org? Hierarchy, scheduled meetings with a fixed agenda, certain types of activities, finances, relations with other churches in the region etc. It was all quite carefully prescribed, wasn't it?

 

[Just_a_Joe]

I do believe that there would be people/ christians that miss use this as a "license to sin" unfortunately there's nothing we can do but to help remind them.
To be honest when I see this, I don't think they're serious about following Christ...

In my opinion, when someone decided to follow Jesus and believe in Him, they should try their best to do what they're supposed to do (just like how kids would try their best to not disappoint their parent). To be more like Christ and spread the word of God to as many people as possible.
With saying that, nobody is perfect and there may be times where we would still sin (hopefully lesser and lesser as time goes by)

Personally, I believed and want to follow God because He first loved me. So I will love others and show them how God has loved me.
Hopefully with this, other people can see that God loves them too.

Pretty good. So you understand the potential danger of such mindset of "no accountability for anything". Isn't it awful? I see it all the time, and at a scale and depth more than what you seem to suggest.

Motivated out of love. Great. How is it expressed in practice? I've been in numerous types of churches. You know, they say big and loud words, their deeds are small and quiet. The only sect of Christianity that I was quite impressed by so far is the Jehovah Witnesses. Out of the ones I've been to. (See lots of problems with JW too). I talked to people in many-many denominations. Detailed, deep, highly engaged conversations. And observing the practices first-hand. Much of Christianity is as dead as a rock. Social club, rituals etc. Lots of talk, little walk.

Anyways, how exactly do you express your love to others? Saved or lost people. What's most important kind of love? How really active are you? How much compromise or conformity with the world do you allow, you think?

 

[corinth77777]

Sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean by eternal life is based on quality of life lived.
My understanding is that sin separates us from God. The only way for us to be with God is by not having sin (which is impossible as we are sinners). Therefore, God send Jesus to die on the cross, and whoever believes in Him will receive eternal life (once we die on earth)

Like what you said, by walking in Him we will find peace. It doesn't mean that trouble and suffering will then be gone forever. We are still human, trials and suffering is still part of life.
There would always be time where suffering and trial comes around, when we are put in this situation, we need to trust in God and with that we will find peace. It doesn't mean that we are "saved" again as we're already saved when we believes in Him.

Did I get this right? I'm not too sure if this answer your question?

It is sometimes in the middle of a storm we will find peace as we remain in him....

 

[ToBeLoved]

Pretty good. So you understand the potential danger of such mindset of "no accountability for anything". Isn't it awful? I see it all the time, and at a scale and depth more than what you seem to suggest.

Motivated out of love. Great. How is it expressed in practice? I've been in numerous types of churches. You know, they say big and loud words, their deeds are small and quiet. The only sect of Christianity that I was quite impressed by so far is the Jehovah Witnesses. Out of the ones I've been to. (See lots of problems with JW too). I talked to people in many-many denominations. Detailed, deep, highly engaged conversations. And observing the practices first-hand. Much of Christianity is as dead as a rock. Social club, rituals etc. Lots of talk, little walk.

Anyways, how exactly do you express your love to others? Saved or lost people. What's most important kind of love? How really active are you? How much compromise or conformity with the world do you allow, you think?

Why are you looking for God in others or God in churches?

You have a red phone, hotline to God 24/7 in prayer. Loving God is about God in US. We each of us are the church. As a collective, individuals.

Don't try to find God somewhere, Go get God and His gift of salvation. Then you become the Christian that you are trying so hard to find.

Don't go find it and continue to look for it, BECOME IT. "God in Us"

You are missing all His power and glory. Your seeking Him and He has been right there all along.

 

[stephen583]

We do not fight for the things of this world (carnal desires) as our home is in heaven (spiritual).

Actually that's not exactly historically accurate. In July 2015 during his visit to Bolivia, The President of Bolivia presented Pope Francis with a sculpture of a "Hammer and Sickle with a Cross superimposed over it" commemorating the 1991 RCC victory over the Soviet Union. (Source; Associated Press News Release).

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Actually that's not exactly historically accurate. In July 2015 during his visit to Bolivia, The President of Bolivia presented Pope Francis with a sculpture of a "Hammer and Sickle with a Cross superimposed over it" commemorating the 1991 RCC victory over the Soviet Union. (Source; Associated Press News Release).

This is so bizarre! Interesting, though.

Does that mean the RCC credits itself at least partially with the disintegration of the USSR and the fall of the communist ideology there?

 

[stephen583]

Does that mean the RCC credits itself at least partially with the disintegration of the USSR and the fall of the communist ideology there?

Absolutely. Reams have been written since the collapse of the Soviet Union crediting Pope John Paul (the Polish Pope), and the RCC with having played a pivotal (primary) role in the "Solidarity Movement" led by Lech Walesa in Poland.

Nor is it any coincidence Jorge Mario Bergoglio, Pope Francis, who was the first pope to be elected from a developing country (Argentina), became the face of the RCC movement to pass an International Accord on Climate Change in 2016.

Will the Paris Climate Change Accord be used to "Save the World" ? Or will the strong economic sanctions of the accord be used as a political weapon against Russia (where Stalinism is being resurrected) and Communist China where the RCC has historically been met with persecution ? Will the Paris Accord become the catalyst that ignites a Third World War and results in a nuclear holocaust that DESTROYS THE EARTH instead ?!

"For this cause God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should believe a LIE" (2 Thessalonians 2:11).

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Absolutely. Reams have been written since the collapse of the Soviet Union crediting Pope John Paul (the Polish Pope), and the RCC with having played a pivotal (primary) role in the "Velvet Revolution" and the "Solidarity Movement" led by Lech Walesa in Poland.

Nor is it any coincidence Jorge Mario Bergoglio, Pope Francis, who was the first pope to be elected from a developing country (Argentina), became the face of the RCC movement to pass an International Accord on Climate Change in 2016.

Will the Paris Climate Change Accord be used to "Save the World" ? Or will the strong economic sanctions of the accord be used as a political weapon against Russia (where Stalinism is being resurrected) and Communist China where the RCC has historically been met with persecution ? Will the Paris Accord become the catalyst that ignites a Third World War and results in a nuclear holocaust that DESTROYS THE EARTH instead ?!

"For this cause God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should believe a LIE" (2 Thessalonians 2:11).

Humm... Solidarnosc was in Poland. How did it topple the USSR? Maybe we talk about other, secretive influence of the RCC not open and thus known to public?

I think Jesus taught communism, not capitalism. Destroying and disrupting countries does not bring a victory of the cross. In Russia, the RCC faith did not spread as wildfire after 1991. So, the cross on top of the hammer and sickle symbolism isn't really convincing to me. Perhaps as wishful thinking only?

The USSR and the block of Warsaw Agreement countries could have been reformed without all the events that followed. Stalinism didn't bring nearly as many victims as Gorbachevism and Yeltsinism combined with mass demographic disasters of war, crime, disease, drug and alcohol abuse, emigration etc.

Same goes for China. It's quite stable as it is and prosperous. If you topple it, it's like opening Pandora's box. Wo zhi dao. I've lived and worked there. And in a few other places around the globe.

So it's all quite dubious to me. Good or bad?

Pope Francis - is he more a representative of the German party within the RCC, which historically rivals the Polish and Italian lobbies? All those power games, you know...

Those sanctions under the Paris Climate Change Accord will never bring about WW-III, I don't think... But the ongoing geopolitical tensions can. Some Greek Orthodox monastics prophesied decades ago about Syria as the starting trigger. Like there would be an unexpected attack from a major regional or global power not yet evident there, Syria's legal government will fall, and that will be the first domino piece to start the chain reaction of WW-III...

BTW I know many Catholics. Some of them have very, very deep faith. I respect them for that. They seem to be solid in their personality and are serious about God. My first ever visit to a Catholic Church was at Notre Dame de Paris many-many years ago... I was blown away, what beautiful and solemn mass it was...

 

[fhansen]

Great. This is great. Do you believe that salvation is a life long process? That the final judgement will decide your fate, based on your deeds?

\
I believe in God who desires to do a work of transforming me into a being who loves as He does. How well I've responded to this molding will be judged as per Matt 25:31-46, for example. I agree with the quote of John of the Cross, a 16th century believer: "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love".

 

[Just_a_Joe]

\
I believe in God who desires to do a work of transforming me into a being who loves as He does. How well I've responded to this molding will be judged as per Matt 25:31-46, for example. I agree with the quote of John of the Cross, a 16th century believer: "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love".

Nothing I can disagree with here.

Especially judged on love.

Beautiful. True.

 

[Purpurin]

Pretty good. So you understand the potential danger of such mindset of "no accountability for anything". Isn't it awful? I see it all the time, and at a scale and depth more than what you seem to suggest.

Motivated out of love. Great. How is it expressed in practice? I've been in numerous types of churches. You know, they say big and loud words, their deeds are small and quiet. The only sect of Christianity that I was quite impressed by so far is the Jehovah Witnesses. Out of the ones I've been to. (See lots of problems with JW too). I talked to people in many-many denominations. Detailed, deep, highly engaged conversations. And observing the practices first-hand. Much of Christianity is as dead as a rock. Social club, rituals etc. Lots of talk, little walk.

Anyways, how exactly do you express your love to others? Saved or lost people. What's most important kind of love? How really active are you? How much compromise or conformity with the world do you allow, you think?

Joe, I think expressing love to others doesn't have to be in a grand way. Start small and continuously doing so.
Myself personally I don't go door to door telling people about Jesus..

I start small, from the people around me..
Treat others the way I want to be treated. Help out as much as I could at church (I'm in children ministry too, so teaching kids about God), help others that are not as fortunate ( either through physical means or through donations).

I also don't like to tell others about God with "come and follow me now" attitude.
I tell them what I know, and try to ask them to come along and see what church is like.
If they choose not to come, I'll try again some other time.. I want them to come along to church when they decided to do so, I think it's much more effective this way.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Joe, I think expressing love to others doesn't have to be in a grand way. Start small and continuously doing so.
Myself personally I don't go door to door telling people about Jesus..

I start small, from the people around me..
Treat others the way I want to be treated. Help out as much as I could at church (I'm in children ministry too, so teaching kids about God), help others that are not as fortunate ( either through physical means or through donations).

I also don't like to tell others about God with "come and follow me now" attitude.
I tell them what I know, and try to ask them to come along and see what church is like.
If they choose not to come, I'll try again some other time.. I want them to come along to church when they decided to do so, I think it's much more effective this way.

I didn't necessarily mean that actions are supposed to be grand. I implied obvious hypocrisy - not walking the talk. JW impressed me with an attempt to be honest to the Bible and to their faith, to be consistent in everything. Not that they don't fail anywhere or aren't being manipulated by the top management of their cult.

Thank you for sharing your story. I won't judge your love - any little bit counts.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Joe, I think expressing love to others doesn't have to be in a grand way. Start small and continuously doing so.
Myself personally I don't go door to door telling people about Jesus..

I start small, from the people around me..
Treat others the way I want to be treated. Help out as much as I could at church (I'm in children ministry too, so teaching kids about God), help others that are not as fortunate ( either through physical means or through donations).

I also don't like to tell others about God with "come and follow me now" attitude.
I tell them what I know, and try to ask them to come along and see what church is like.
If they choose not to come, I'll try again some other time.. I want them to come along to church when they decided to do so, I think it's much more effective this way.

And that is an especially good way to be. Because you show them in actions who you are as a Christian, not in words. Too many Christians talk the talk, but don't walk the walk.

I think like you that we need to be 'doer's and not just talkers. I like it.

 

[OzSpen]

You didn't add new information to what you had already said. So you are saying, the people who've never heard the gospel about Jesus are judged on the basis of the information they derive from observing the creation? Doesn't it effectively remove the need for the gospel? Not that the gospel is completely useless, but that there are basically two options. Coming to the Father through Jesus Christ, or coming to the Father through looking at the outside world and inferring the law built into it? So, either way, you receive complete information to be judged - "there is no excuse".

What about, say, a man by the name Asvathama, born and raised in Varanasi, India as a devout Hindu? He's never heard the proper gospel of Jesus Christ, but respected his parents, took care of siblings, helped the neighbours and otherwise led a pious life? He looked at creation, understood and obeyed the natural law.

Just,

Why don't you take a read of, Can People Who Have Never Heard of Jesus Be Saved? (Christian Post)?

Wycliffe Bible Translators tell us that there are approximately 1,800 languages in the world that do not have a Bible in those languages (source).

All people need the Gospel proclaimed. However, what do people do with the evidence of God in creation? They suppress the truth through their unrighteousness (Rom 1:16 ESV).

Oz