Christianity... and the fact of evolution

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Allegories didn't actually happen.

Aesop's fable about the fox and the sour grapes . . . is it true or false?

 

[Armoured]

I'll let you look up the sources, but here are the facts.

Over 100 years of testing fruit flies.
They have mutated every gene every way they can.
Nothing resembling a new useful feature or anything
positive came of it. They mutated many to the point
of death or sterility or inability to live without help.
Those with useless extra wings or legs, etc., when
bred to normal flies, the offspring reverted to normal
within a few generations. DNA does not permit wild
changes, only adaptation.

No, you're the one making the claim, YOU provide the sources.

 

[pat34lee]

OK does this mean that as soon as a scientist makes a living cell from non living ingredients you will accept evolution?

Actually, when it is shown how much intelligent design is
necessary, will you accept that it took a creator to make us?
One who doesn't hide behind time, chance and nature.

 

[AV1611VET]

OK does this mean that as soon as a scientist makes a living cell from non living ingredients you will accept evolution?

It would demonstrate intelligent design -- and as I always say: Intelligent design can take a hike.

 

[pat34lee]

No, you're the one making the claim, YOU provide the sources.

http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/Encyclopedia/10mut10.htm

https://www.google.com/search?q=fru...i131k1j0i22i30k1j33i160k1j33i21k1.scl-q-ziQ6s

http://www.bing.com/search?q=fruit+...D276E648E475390134A1FA6A66800&FORM=QBLH&ghc=1

 

[pat34lee]

And where does the Bible say that one must believe in a literal six-day creation in order to be saved?

If God were a liar, would you trust him with your soul?

 

[Archivist]

If God were a liar, would you trust him with your soul?

I never said that God was a liar.

 

[Armoured]

http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/Encyclopedia/10mut10.htm

https://www.google.com/search?q=fru...i131k1j0i22i30k1j33i160k1j33i21k1.scl-q-ziQ6s

http://www.bing.com/search?q=fruit+...D276E648E475390134A1FA6A66800&FORM=QBLH&ghc=1

A Google search AND a Bing search? Goodness!

 

[pat34lee]

I never said that God was a liar.

I wouldn't imply that you did. If we can't trust his words
which are called truth and light and life, then he must be
a liar. Can anyone trust their souls to a liar? What if he
lied about salvation and eternal life?

If God didn't create the world in six days, did Moses really
lead the exodus from Egypt, did Noah build an ark, did
Elijah defeat 450 prophets of Baal, was Jesus born of a virgin,
did Peter walk on water??? It's a slippery slope. What is too
unbelievable to be true?

 

[pat34lee]

A Google search AND a Bing search? Goodness!

And a creationist article. Variety.

 

[Anguspure]

If God were a liar, would you trust him with your soul?

To accuse somebody of a lie because of our own lack of understanding and then loose ones life in response would be unfortunate.
Though he slay me, yet will I hope in him.

 

[Archivist]

I wouldn't imply that you did. If we can't trust his words
which are called truth and light and life, then he must be
a liar. Can anyone trust their souls to a liar? What if he
lied about salvation and eternal life?

If God didn't create the world in six days, did Moses really
lead the exodus from Egypt, did Noah build an ark, did
Elijah defeat 450 prophets of Baal, was Jesus born of a virgin,
did Peter walk on water??? It's a slippery slope. What is too
unbelievable to be true?

You do understand what an allegory is, don't you?

 

[Armoured]

I wouldn't imply that you did. If we can't trust his words
which are called truth and light and life, then he must be
a liar. Can anyone trust their souls to a liar? What if he
lied about salvation and eternal life?

If God didn't create the world in six days, did Moses really
lead the exodus from Egypt, did Noah build an ark, did
Elijah defeat 450 prophets of Baal, was Jesus born of a virgin,
did Peter walk on water??? It's a slippery slope. What is too
unbelievable to be true?

the stuff that there's observable objective evidence agaist that makes more sense taken as metaphor and allegory anyway is where I draw the line.

Not to mention the myriad contradictions in "his word".

 

[AV1611VET]

You do understand what an allegory is, don't you?

Can you show me an allegory, parable, vision or other in the Bible that the Bible doesn't say it is such?

In every instance I know of, the Bible informs the reader that what he is reading is just that.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

If God were a liar, would you trust him with your soul?

Well, I guess God lied, then, because He said He'd send Elijah,...........................and He didn't. He sent someone else.

[Note to Ultra-literalists: Obviously, I'm being purposefully facetious with my statement above in order to get some of you to think. I know God can't and won't lie. ]

2PhiloVoid

 

[throughfiierytrial]

The trick here, KWC, is to realize that there wasn't much in the way of any alternative world-view for Jesus to consider, other than the Roman or Asian ones. Even Jesus didn't know everything about the future, and I'm surmising that the [pre-historic] past was generally unknown to Him too ... that is, while He was in human form for 30 some years. What's the chance, I wonder, that Jesus ever read Lucretius? Probably pretty low. So the only alternative to the Israelite worldview would have been mostly one from among several from the surrounding polytheistic cultures. Besides, Jesus was a carpenter and Old Testament scholar, not an archaeologist or paleontologist, and I don't perceive that He was prone to swim in Greek philosophy (other than in His adaptation of Hades).

So, sure. Jesus and His Apostles held to a Biblically tethered paradigm regarding the nature of the world. At the same time, I'm pretty sure that Jesus and Paul considered the implications of Deuteronomy 29:29 and Isaiah 48:6-8.

2PhiloVoid

Jesus was God-man while on earth, not just man and as God possess all knowledge...
John 3:35:
The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands.

John 8:57-58:
You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Prophecy...
Psalm 78:2-3:
I will open my mouth with a parable;
I will utter hidden things, things from of old—
things we have heard and known,
things our ancestors have told us.
fulfilled...
Matthew 13:34-35:
Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet:
“I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.”

John 16:29-30:
Then Jesus’ disciples said, “Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. 30 Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.”

 

[Indent]

Can you show me an allegory, parable, vision or other in the Bible that the Bible doesn't say it is such?

In every instance I know of, the Bible informs the reader that what he is reading is just that.

Genesis 1.

The Bible is a library of books, with numerous contributors, using various literary style/genre, spanning well over a millennium.

The Bible isn't a seamless piece that fell from the sky with an NIV sticker on it.

It takes some work to understand the Bible.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I don't think you're well-intended assumptions bear more than a modicum of veracity, but since this forum is primarily about evolution, I'm not going to get into lengthy discussion about the extent of Jesus' empowerment by the Holy Spirit.

I'll just say that I do think Jesus' abilities and knowledge, even though made much greater than would be possible for any other human being, still exhibited constraints that came from Jesus' having been fully human. If Jesus was some kind of empowered Superman, why would He have needed any protection at all by legions of angels? Something doesn't click with that. No, Jesus had greater but still limited knowledge, and He was vulnerable and subject even to death. But...isn't that why He emptied Himself and came down in the first place?

So, I'm going to go with the conclusion that Jesus didn't know much at all about Prehistory while in His human form during the first Advent. When He rose again from the dead and took up His full mantle as Creator/God, I'm sure that at that point, He knew everything about Prehistory (hidden from us), just as He did before He came down into our world as a Suffering Servant.

2PhiloVoid

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Jesus was God-man while on earth, not just man and as God possess all knowledge...
John 3:35:
The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands.

John 8:57-58:
You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Prophecy...
Psalm 78:2-3:
I will open my mouth with a parable;
I will utter hidden things, things from of old—
things we have heard and known,
things our ancestors have told us.
fulfilled...
Matthew 13:34-35:
Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet:
“I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world.”

John 16:29-30:
Then Jesus’ disciples said, “Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. 30 Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God.”

I didn't say that Jesus was "just" a man.

 

[KWCrazy]

Aesop's fable about the fox and the sour grapes . . . is it true or false?

False. Foxes are incapable of complex reasoning.