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Christianity... and the fact of evolution

AV1611VET

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And where does the Bible say that one must believe in a literal six-day creation in order to be saved?
If you want to discuss soteriology, I'm not interested.

If you want to discuss the creation, that's my forte.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Given some of the comments I see from folks in this forum, I think some people will be very surprised by who they will find in heaven.

Yes, I suppose they would be. :rolleyes: Yet, I hope and pray for the best for everyone, really.
 
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Indent

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I think when it comes to evolution, it's not often viewed as the "ultimate" explanation.

That wouldn't be science talking.

There are people that do not think it necessitates a God in the picture. The thing to keep in mind about people like Richard Dawkins is that while he is an ardent "atheist" (I think he's more of an agnostic), he still permits room for the possibility, while very small, for something outside his worldview.

That space still exists. There are scientists that admit to being wrong, even after a career of believing in a particular scientific dogma, and it's something that is celebrated as courageous. We are constantly learning.

There is no such space for fundamentalist Christians. It's unyielding adherence to church doctrine and deadening confirmity.

The reason evolutionists are so combative is partially the fault of creationists. There are a number of scientific/evolution papers that mention creationists, even in passing, because evolution is so poorly understood in the public realm that profoundly unscientific ideas like "intelligent design", backed by unethical and questionable think tanks, such as Discovery Institute, are permitted to encroach on public policy and to be smuggled into science classrooms.

The problem with evolution is largely an American one, which should clue us on the some of the underlying problems here.

The fact is the Genesis narratives were written by an ancient Near Eastern people to their people, which is abundantly clear these people had an ancient worldview, which has been routinely ignored, but is undeniable to an honest person.

It's a known fact that ancient Near Eastern cultures used myths. These people were storytellers. The OT authors are part of that, like it or not.

It does not demote God, it means God comes down to where we are at. He speaks to us in our cultural and intellectual limitations.

The notion that God wanted to provide a journalistic account of material origins to a people thousands of years ago is ridiculous. This was a time where virtually all people believed in god(s), and the world was explained this way. It was not a matter of whether the gods created the world, were responsible for the functions and phenomena around this, it was a matter of which one to subscribe to.

We see a polemic message in the Genesis creation account that can be understood to demote other gods, such as one associated with the moon, for example. This is a message of God's abode and the relationship to the Israelites place.

Show me the evidence for the flaccid and contentious doctrine of inerrancy? Show me the evidence that apostle Paul was incapable of error. We have thousands of years of Christians getting it wrong.

I don't think Paul's theological statements depend on his science.

I hope it's not going to rest on the line from 2 Timothy, which would be spurious at best.

The belief in the literal understanding of the Genesis creation accounts do not rest on facts, but a hermeneutics choice made by Christian. It's speculation. It's an understanding based on cultural, and it's your culture that is tell you to ask certain questions of evolution.

There is, however, overwhelming evidence for evolution. The reason it's not satisfactory with Christian isn't because it isn't telling a clear message, it's that Christians don't want to hear it.

It's that simple.
 
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Archivist

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If you want to discuss soteriology, I'm not interested.

If you want to discuss the creation, that's my forte.

But you are the one who claimed that it was a salvation issue. I am simply asking you to offer evidence to support your claim per forum rules which require that when disagreeing with someone's position, "you should post evidence and supporting statements for your position." If you refuse to do that then withdraw your claim.
 
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KWCrazy

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And where does the Bible say that one must believe in a literal six-day creation in order to be saved?
It does not. It says that you have to be born again and put away worldly things.
Christ was a YEC. He believed and taught that the Scriptures were the inspired word of God. He spoke of Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Jonah, Noah, Lot and all the historical events of the Bible as just that; historical events. However the Bible warns about false teaching; about leading others astray by adding or deleting doctrine. Those who tell other Christians that their Bible is false are spreading false doctrine and will stand to account for it. Those who lead others away from the faith will pay for that sin. One cannot love the Lord with all your heart, mind and soul and yet not believe a single word He has given to man.
Things which are impossible are impossible. There are no degrees of impossible. As the six day creation is impossible; as the creation of all things in their maturity is impossible, so to is the resurrection of Christ impossible. How does one believe one and not the other? Certainly anyone who has ever seen death understands the impossibility of re-animating tissue after three days of decomposition, yet Jesus did just that for Lazarus when he lives so that others would know He would arise Himself on the third day. We know that the end will come just as it did for Noah's world, only not by flood. We know this because He TOLD us. It doesn't matter what science tells us. The creation bows to the whim of its Creator.
 
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AV1611VET

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But you are the one who claimed that it was a salvation issue. I am simply asking you to offer evidence to support your claim per forum rules which require that when disagreeing with someone's position, "you should post evidence and supporting statements for your position." If you refuse to do that then withdraw your claim.
Sorry ... I don't believe you're so naïve you don't know what I'm talking about.

Ever heard of original sin?

And if you don't think it's an issue, then why are you making an issue out of it?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I think when it comes to evolution, it's not often viewed as the "ultimate" explanation.

That wouldn't be science talking.

There are people that do not think it necessitates a God in the picture. The thing to keep in mind about people like Richard Dawkins is that while he is an ardent "atheist" (I think he's more of an agnostic), he still permits room for the possibility, while very small, for something outside his worldview.

That space still exists. There are scientists that admit to being wrong, even after a career of believing in a particular scientific dogma, and it's something that is celebrated as courageous. We are constantly learning.

There is no such space for fundamentalist Christians. It's unyielding adherence to church doctrine and deadening confirmity.

The reason evolutionists are so combative is partially the fault of creationists. There are a number of scientific/evolution papers that mention creationists, even in passing, because evolution is so poorly understood in the public realm that profoundly unscientific ideas like "intelligent design", backed by unethical and questionable think tanks, such as Discovery Institute, are permitted to encroach on public policy and to be smuggled into science classrooms.

The problem with evolution is largely an American one, which should clue us on the some of the underlying problems here.

The fact is the Genesis narratives were written by an ancient Near Eastern people to their people, which is abundantly clear these people had an ancient worldview, which has been routinely ignored, but is undeniable to an honest person.

It's a known fact that ancient Near Eastern cultures used myths. These people were storytellers. The OT authors are part of that, like it or not.

It does not demote God, it means God comes down to where we are at. He speaks to us in our cultural and intellectual limitations.

The notion that God wanted to provide a journalistic account of material origins to a people thousands of years ago is ridiculous. This was a time where virtually all people believed in god(s), and the world was explained this way. It was not a matter of whether the gods created the world, were responsible for the functions and phenomena around this, it was a matter of which one to subscribe to.

We see a polemic message in the Genesis creation account that can be understood to demote other gods, such as one associated with the moon, for example. This is a message of God's abode and the relationship to the Israelites place.

Show me the evidence for the flaccid and contentious doctrine of inerrancy? Show me the evidence that apostle Paul was incapable of error. We have thousands of years of Christians getting it wrong.

I don't think Paul's theological statements depend on his science.

I hope it's not going to rest on the line from 2 Timothy, which would be spurious at best.

The belief in the literal understanding of the Genesis creation accounts do not rest on facts, but a hermeneutics choice made by Christian. It's speculation. It's an understanding based on cultural, and it's your culture that is tell you to ask certain questions of evolution.

There is, however, overwhelming evidence for evolution. The reason it's not satisfactory with Christian isn't because it isn't telling a clear message, it's that Christians don't want to hear it.

It's that simple.

When I was a graduate student, I researched a paper which focused on this kind of thing (regarding evolution, specifically). And what I found back then was reflective of what you've nicely summarized here, Indent. The only thing I'd suggest is that since individual cognitive processes are so complex from individual to individual, and that what we "think" essentially emerges from what we've read/seen/heard, and what we conclude comes via our capacity and aptitude to evaluate ideas, we probably shouldn't have too high of an expectation of one another to "get it all right." But, it is sad that some Christians basically badger others to "get on the straight and narrow."

Peace
2PhiloVoid
 
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2PhiloVoid

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It does not. It says that you have to be born again and put away worldly things.
Christ was a YEC. He believed and taught that the Scriptures were the inspired word of God. He spoke of Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Jonah, Noah, Lot and all the historical events of the Bible as just that; historical events. However the Bible warns about false teaching; about leading others astray by adding or deleting doctrine. Those who tell other Christians that their Bible is false are spreading false doctrine and will stand to account for it. Those who lead others away from the faith will pay for that sin. One cannot love the Lord with all your heart, mind and soul and yet not believe a single word He has given to man.
Things which are impossible are impossible. There are no degrees of impossible. As the six day creation is impossible; as the creation of all things in their maturity is impossible, so to is the resurrection of Christ impossible. How does one believe one and not the other? Certainly anyone who has ever seen death understands the impossibility of re-animating tissue after three days of decomposition, yet Jesus did just that for Lazarus when he lives so that others would know He would arise Himself on the third day. We know that the end will come just as it did for Noah's world, only not by flood. We know this because He TOLD us. It doesn't matter what science tells us. The creation bows to the whim of its Creator.

Where does Jesus mention Adam (or Eve) by name? :mmh:
I'm seeing some little reference given by Jesus that in the beginning "He made them male and female," but .... no direct mention of names. Hmmmm! Kind of strange.

I also find it slightly odd that Josephus seemed to think that Moses was being a bit philosophical when describing the creation and fall of Adam and Eve. Hmmmm! That's strange, too! :smarty:
 
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Archivist

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It does not. It says that you have to be born again and put away worldly things.
Christ was a YEC. He believed and taught that the Scriptures were the inspired word of God. He spoke of Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Jonah, Noah, Lot and all the historical events of the Bible as just that; historical events. However the Bible warns about false teaching; about leading others astray by adding or deleting doctrine. Those who tell other Christians that their Bible is false are spreading false doctrine and will stand to account for it. Those who lead others away from the faith will pay for that sin. One cannot love the Lord with all your heart, mind and soul and yet not believe a single word He has given to man.
Things which are impossible are impossible. There are no degrees of impossible. As the six day creation is impossible; as the creation of all things in their maturity is impossible, so to is the resurrection of Christ impossible. How does one believe one and not the other? Certainly anyone who has ever seen death understands the impossibility of re-animating tissue after three days of decomposition, yet Jesus did just that for Lazarus when he lives so that others would know He would arise Himself on the third day. We know that the end will come just as it did for Noah's world, only not by flood. We know this because He TOLD us. It doesn't matter what science tells us. The creation bows to the whim of its Creator.

And exactly how is believing that the Genesis account is an allegory "false teaching"? How is it "deleting doctrine"?

Yes, Jesus taught the various Genesis accounts as historical events. The people of the day believed tham to be so; how else could He have taught them. Yet we know that Jesus often used parables to teach. Was there an actual Good Samaritan? Was there an actual Prodigal Son? Does it take anything away from the teaching of Jesus if these are simply stories used for teaching?

You said "One cannot love the Lord with all your heart, mind and soul and yet not believe a single word He has given to man." Yet while Jesus told us "this is my body," "this is the New Testament in my blood," we have people on this thread who deny that Holy Communion is the body and blood of Christ.

No one has yet shown that believing that God used evolution to create the world has any relationship to belief that Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead.
 
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Archivist

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Sorry ... I don't believe you're so naïve you don't know what I'm talking about. Ever heard of original sin?

So belief in the Genesis creation stories is original sin? Care to explain that?

And if you don't think it's an issue, then why are you making an issue out of it?

You made the claim. I am simply askuing for you to prove what you said per forum rules.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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So you start with a ad hominum and then want to jump into a conversation.
. . . First explain how I am heretical from your theological point of view.

Simple. You reject evolution. And just for the record, you will note I did not start this "heretic" name calling, and I suggest it be dropped by all parties because it merely expresses the fact that we disagree.
 
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ChristsSoldier115

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You conveniently forgot the word "how." People agree that God created us, but they refuse to believe His word when He says HOW He created us. Jesus affirmed the stories in Genesis, including the fact that sin and death entered the world through Adam. Prior to that, there was no death. No death = no evolution. God creating Adam means he did not evolve. God created all the fish in the sea in a day; no evolution.

Anyone who believes that the Scriptures and evolution can both be true understands neither. God created man from the dust of the earth. He had no ancestor. Our common progenitor was Adam.
Why is allegorical truth less truth than literal truth?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Why is allegorical truth less truth than literal truth?

I'd say that it isn't. But, maybe we need a better word to describe the nature of some of the Biblical expressions and statements, because I think some Christians are bothered by the possible connotations of the term "allegory," and it may sound to them as if something that is allegorical is something that's just all made up and worthy of being tossed into the trash.

While I accept that some aspects of Scripture may be allegorical, I'd rather use the term "Prophetically Indirect." That way, we can affirm that we feel it's substantially spiritual, and from God, but yet understand that it could unfold in meaning in different ways in history and in the future from what we might think at first glance.

That's my approach, anyway.

Peace
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Indent

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When I was a graduate student, I researched a paper which focused on this kind of thing (regarding evolution, specifically). And what I found back then was reflective of what you've nicely summarized here, Indent. The only thing I'd suggest is that since individual cognitive processes are so complex from individual to individual, and that what we "think" essentially emerges from what we've read/seen/heard, and what we conclude comes via our capacity and aptitude to evaluate ideas, we probably shouldn't have too high of an expectation of one another to "get it all right." But, it is sad that some Christians basically badger others to "get on the straight and narrow."

Peace
2PhiloVoid


It’s a bit upsetting when Christians conduct a so-called “plain reading”, as it just doesn’t make a lot of sense. It hardly matters if a person is reading the Bible, Charlotte’s Web, or the daily news—to read is to engage in a process of interpretation, abstraction, representation.

It’s an inescapable reality, as we are dealing with cognitive processes. We are dealing with people, inspired or not.

You can have a plainly written news article, and all kinds of people will have all kinds of responses to it. You can revisit Charlotte’s Web over and over again and find what appears to be a new meaning/message behind it, whether the author intended it or not. The Bible has been debated inside and outside the Church for thousands of years.

To conduct a so-called “plain reading”, is to effectively communicate “I don’t care about the historical context.”

You make no effort to understand the worldview of the ancient Israelites, the world that these people are inescapably anchored in, but instead substitute a cultural understanding of the Genesis narratives. You want the Bible to be something it just isn’t prepared to deliver on.

What are we to make of Job, Ecclesiastes, the Psalms? What do these books tell us about what a spiritual life looks like? That Christ takes on humanity and meets us right in drama. I think Christians have a curious idea of what "faith" means.

It’s clear to me that the Christian God comes meet us at our cultural and intellectual limitations.
 
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smithed64

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Simple. You reject evolution. And just for the record, you will note I did not start this "heretic" name calling, and I suggest it be dropped by all parties because it merely expresses the fact that we disagree.

Then you agree then than evolution is evolving into a religion?
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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If you want to discuss soteriology, I'm not interested.

If you want to discuss the creation, that's my forte.

Actually, you take a very easy route . . . you just say "no" to whatever evidence comes along. Hardly requires any actual effort.
 
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AV1611VET

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The human race has a desire to learn and to understand all that is possible to learn and to understand.
There's a typo in your signature.
 
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