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  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Could we have an entire economy...

Strivax

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Except you will NEVER get "everyone" on board with this - maybe not even a majority of people. There will ALWAYS be a Kim Jung ill or a Sadam Hussein or a Hitler or a Nero to come down hard on everyone else.

Not now, perhaps. Maybe not even in our lifetimes. Maybe it will take generations. But there will come a time when the likes of these unsavoury individuals become so widely socially unacceptable, they will never gain power. The sooner we lay down the solid moral foundations necessary for that development, the quicker it will happen.

We should not forget that, these days, populist demagogues come to power either by promising to protect the privileges of the wealthy, or by promising the wealth of the wealthy to the poor. A more equal distribution of wealth in the first place, and a lesser attachment to riches, would rob them of much of their initial appeal.

Best wishes, Strivax.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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...built solely out of not-for-profit enterprises? Would it be possible to undertake all economic activity just for the sake of making the world a better place, and forego the motivation to become rich, altogether? What would be the advantages of such an economy, and what the disadvantages? What should be the Christian attitude to a national endeavour along these lines?

Just wondering...

Best wishes, Strivax.

Hmmm.

I don't think that is feasable.
Innovation and economy are things that go hand in hand - they keep eachother going.

For practical purposes, I'll break "innovation" up in 2 parts: the "frontier" part and the "commercial" part.

The "frontier" part, is very high risk. In the sense that it is about development of "radically" new technology. This is the part that is all about investment, investment, investment, without knowing if there will be any returns. Very few companies, if any at all, will make this an integral part of their culture.

Usually, we find this kind of research in universities or government programs.

The knowledge / technologies developed there, is then used in "practical application" in the commercial part. There is still a research factor involved here, sometimes a very big one, but the "risky heavy lifting" is already done at this point. In the commercial context, there is thus a lot less risk in those investments. And usually, before any research projects start, an risk assessment is already done and a target ROI has been calculated.

However, even such research costs lots of money. Money that needs to be available for that organization. Which they can only have, if they have a prosperous business with healthy profit.

Apple is a great example here.
They are currently involved in research programs for self-driving cars. There will almost certaintly not be any such "iCar" before 2020. This is a 5-6 year research program wich costs hundreds of millions of dollars, if not over a billion.
And the only reason that Apple gets to do such a research program - while cars isn't even their business - is because they sit on a pile of cash of 100 billion.

A pile of cash that they wouldn't have if they would be a "not-for-profit" enterprise.
Every iProduct is the exact same.

iPod, iPhone, iPad, macs,.... All of it was preceeded by lots of costly research to develop the product.

But as good as NONE of the actual technologies employed in these products were developed by Apple... Apple didn't develop the mp3 format. They didn't invent streaming. They didn't invent wifi. They didn't invent LTE. They didn't invent touchscreens. All that was done by other people. The basis for all these things were developed with grant money, through universities or government programs.

Some things are mere recombinations of existing technologies, like mp3. It's not a technology by itself... it's actually just a file format / encoding. A refinement of something that already existed.

So, in essence, the way I see it, if every enterprise turned "non-profit", then innovation would slow down tremendously. And perhaps even come to a complete halt.

Because in the end, even the money being used for the "frontier part", is money that was "generated" in some way by someone doing actual work and making a profit.


People often say that IT is a "fast changing industry". And they are correct. But why is that? It's because there is a lot of money being made there. More money = more research = faster progress. Which in turn leads to even more money, because progress = new products.

The system keeps itself going.
 
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Strivax

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Hmmm.

I don't think that is feasible.
Innovation and economy are things that go hand in hand...

Indeed. A useful analysis, and great contribution to the discussion.

But it occurs to me that, by your own admission, the really high risk, blue sky R&D that happens in universities and government programs isn't done for profit. Why, then, should the lower risk, product development aspect of getting novelty to market necessarily be funded this way?

Perhaps you would like to comment.

Best wishes, Strivax.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

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But it occurs to me that, by your own admission, the really high risk, blue sky R&D that happens in universities and government programs isn't done for profit.

Indeed it isn't. Eventhough succesfull projects will likely result in a patent or alike, which will make some (or a lot of) money if the technology ends up being used by the commercial sector.

However, it IS being paid for with "profit money".
The money being injected into university programs, doesn't fall from the sky. That's all cash that has not only been earned, but which was in surplus.

One can only invest / donate money that one doesn't need to cover costs, wages, etc. So by very definition, the money being poured into such programs, is money that wasn't needed elsewhere. ie, profits.


Why, then should the lower risk, product development aspect of getting novelty to market necessarily be funded this way?

Same reason, I'ld think. You can't invest what you don't have. Neither can you invest what you need for yourself.

I'm not saying that it can't be done however... But, like someone else here said, communist states are a great example. Just look at the development of both soviet russia and the US during the cold war.

Looking back, this was a war of technological progress.
The US didn't "win" the war by fighting. The US didn't "win" at all, I'ld say. Rather: the soviets lost. The free market system of the US turned out to be a far more efficient engine to power this motor of innovation and learning.

The nukes being developed are a great example.
The soviets had the "most powerfull" ones. The reason for that was not that the US couldn't make them that powerful, because they easily could. Rather, it was a case of the US not requiring such powerfull bombs, because their technology was just far more advanced. The guiding system was a LOT more accurate and precise.

The soviet bombs were more powerfull, because they couldn't be confident enough that the bomb would hit the intended target. By increasing the "explosion radius", they made sure that the target would be hit nonetheless. US rockets were just a lot better.

US scientists aren't "smarter" then russians....
They just had far bigger budgets to work with, accross the entire line. Thanks to the free market economy.

Monster profits = monster piles of cash
Low to no profits = no budgets.


Also, how can you even counter profits?
Take Apple again. Let's say that to cover the total development cost of iProduct, they need to sell 1 million of them.

What do you do after that 1 millionth piece is sold? Forbid them to continue selling? Force them to give them away for free?
Have them turn over ALL the income from the 1 millionth and 1 sale to the government?
Or forbid "private companies" alltogether and put it all in government control?
There's an incredible amount of implications here.


Having said all that, I'll close with one of my favorite Plato lines (at least, I think it's a Plato line - some ancient greek dude anyway):
"The best form of government is a dictatorship, where the dictator is someone enlightened whose only concern is the best interest of the entire society and all its citizens, and who will never act out of self-interest"

But like that old Greek dude, I agree that that is just a delusional utopia. To the best of my knowledge, a capitalistic secular democracy with a regulated free market is the next best thing.
 
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Tull

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Its all utopian nonsense created by secular humanism with just enough Christianity to attract a few who.might otherwise see it for what it is.

A secular world will never be driven or controled by Christian principles and if you look closely you will see that money is the only area they wish to be affected in order to gain control of wealth production for their own agenda,their dilema is how to get people to produce wealth then willingly hand it over to them.....there is where the small portion of Christianity they are interested in comes in....start talking about the family,sexual purity and a rightous lifestyle and abortion and they will have nothing to say
 
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Dave-W

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Not now, perhaps. Maybe not even in our lifetimes. Maybe it will take generations. But there will come a time when the likes of these unsavoury individuals become so widely socially unacceptable, they will never gain power. The sooner we lay down the solid moral foundations necessary for that development, the quicker it will happen.
What role does the devil play in all of this - as the bible says he stirs up nation against nation?
Do you not think he is behind these "strong men" coming to power; and not mere human ambition?
 
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Tull

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"Solid Moral Foundations" LOL

What role does the devil play ? He's behind it filling mens minds with nonsense that they can build the perfect world without God.

The bible says the world is going to get worse and worse until HE puts an end to it to HIS glory
 
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Strivax

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The bible says the world is going to get worse and worse until HE puts an end to it to HIS glory

Oh, that's OK then. No one needs to be ethical. No one needs to be kind to refugees, or to succour orphans, or to love their neighbour, because God is going to sort the world out for us, by destroying it, or by sending Jesus a second time, or both (opinions differ). Maybe not today, or tomorrow, or this week, but sometime, one day, maybe real soon now ... maybe ...

Cheers, Strivax.
 
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Strivax

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What role does the devil play in all of this - as the bible says he stirs up nation against nation?

I do not think we need invoke the devil at all. Mankind's capacity to do evil, or even just fail to do good, all the while persuading himself he is a virtuous person, really, seems quite sufficient to account for the ills of the world.

Best wishes, Strivax.
 
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Tull

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I do not think we need invoke the devil at all. Mankind's capacity to do evil, or even just fail to do good, all the while persuading himself he a virtuous person, really, seems quite sufficient to account for the ills of the world.

Best wishes, Strivax.

Of course not,you have interest in the true spiritual nature of things,just a humanistic agenda that has nothing to do with the Devil or God.....man centered for the glory of man
 
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Tull

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Oh, that's OK then. No one needs to be ethical. No one needs to be kind to refugees, or to succour orphans, or to love their neighbour, because God is going to sort the world out for us, by destroying it, or by sending Jesus a second time, or both (opinions differ). Maybe not today, or tomorrow, or this week, but sometime, one day, maybe real soon now ... maybe ...

Cheers, Strivax.

No need to get all drama queen about it,no one has said that or anything like it.
 
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Strivax

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Of course not,you have interest in the true spiritual nature of things,just a humanistic agenda that has nothing to do with the Devil or God.....man centered for the glory of man

I would rather be 'neighbour centered' and therefore seek the end of unnecessary human and animal suffering, than think I am God centered because I ignore them. And, oddly enough, I think that is what God would prefer most, and the Devil hate most, too.

Best wishes, Strivax.
 
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Strivax

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The bible says the world is going to get worse and worse until HE puts an end to it to HIS glory

Oh, that's OK then. No one needs to be ethical. No one needs to be kind to refugees, or to succour orphans, or to love their neighbour, because God is going to sort the world out for us, by destroying it, or by sending Jesus a second time, or both (opinions differ). Maybe not today, or tomorrow, or this week, but sometime, one day, maybe real soon now ... maybe ...

No need to get all drama queen about it,no one has said that or anything like it.

You said the world will get worse and worse until God ends it. This is the counsel of ultimate despair, and renders all ethics pointless. If you, in your pessimism, can find a way to justify doing good, I would be interested to hear it.

Best wishes, Strivax.
 
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Strivax

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... If you, in your pessimism, can find a way to justify doing good, I would be interested to hear it.

The only arguements you have are either humanistic fantasy or extremes....elevating yourself on the house of cards of good intentions.

I take it then, from your reply, that you have no compelling reason to do good. That's a sad, lost, lonely place to be, and I pity you more than I can express.

Best wishes, Strivax.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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You said the world will get worse and worse until God ends it. This is the counsel of ultimate despair, and renders all ethics pointless.
This is indicated and stated clearly in SCRIPTURE (YHWH'S WORD).
"UNTIL Y'SHUA RETURNS" .... the "ends it" of the world comes later, after that.
 
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Strivax

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This is indicated and stated clearly in SCRIPTURE (YHWH'S WORD).
"UNTIL Y'SHUA RETURNS" .... the "ends it" of the world comes later, after that.

So assuming the world will end, an uncontroversial idea, even for atheist scientists, is it really written in scripture that the world will get 'worse and worse' (presumably in moral terms) before that happens? Book, chapter and verse would be helpful.

Best wishes, Strivax.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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So assuming the world will end, an uncontroversial idea, even for atheist scientists, is it really written in scripture that the world will get 'worse and worse' (presumably in moral terms) before that happens? Book, chapter and verse would be helpful.

Best wishes, Strivax.
Think about it...
Read it ..... Revelation .... Ezekiel.... Daniel..... Genesis ..... Matthew, and Mark ..... et al .....
No specific verses for here. It is the whole complete picture of YHWH'S PLAN for mankind,
or
more especially (oh, don't forget free online pdf < Galatians Expanded Greek Study by WUEST (the best ever to show how bad we (society ) are/is) key word: pernicious> )
more especially YHWH'S PLAN SALVATION
for a few. (always a few, a remnant).

Remember that the world was so evil and growing worse that it would have destroyed itself before very long if YHWH had not killed all men, women and children on earth, except for the few, the remnant: NOAH and 7 with him.
If YHWH had not put an end to him, man would have destroyed himself, so completely evil was he.

Mankind has not changed. Ethics not-withstanding. (i.e. ethics don't change that).

IS THAT YHWH'S EMPHASIS ?

no. SALVATION, ETERNAL LIFE, is YHWH'S EMPHASIS.
 
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Strivax

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Think about it...
Read it ..... Revelation .... Ezekiel.... Daniel..... Genesis ..... Matthew, and Mark ..... et al .....
No specific verses for here.

I'm sorry. I want specific verses. I want to check the context, and ensure there are no misunderstandings. You said it was stated clearly; I just want to know from where this clarity is derived.

Best wishes, Strivax.
 
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