Could we have an entire economy...

[OldWiseGuy]

The exception being in countries where the government oppresses the people to the point where they cannot feed themselves,places like North Korea and some African countries with "leaders" who live in luxury while their people starve,and contrary to what some would have you believe consume much of the aid that is given for themselves and the key people they need to stay in power.

The wonderful thing about the West is that the individual can rise above their situation if they have the strength and motivation. But they must break away from the invisible chains that hold them down. Sadly too many are unable or unwilling to do this.

 

[Strivax]

... But they must break away from the invisible chains that hold them down. Sadly too many are unable or unwilling to do this.

Oh, sure, let's blame the poor for their poverty. That's convenient; it's all their own fault. They're all feckless, work-shy and indolent, and ethically I needn't succour them in their want.

It's nothing to do with the economic structure of societies, the fact that the rich are hogging far more than their fair share of the world's wealth, and are loath to part with it, even to save lives. 1% of people in the world have as much wealth as everyone else put together, the other 99%. Fully one third of the global population eke out meagre, precarious lives on less than $2 per day, and many on less even than that.

Don't tell me, then, that this is a good thing, a just distribution, a righteous outcome. I won't have it. And if capitalism and the relentless, ruthless, avaricious pursuit of profit (to return to the theme of the thread) inevitably produces such a result, then I won't have that, either.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Tull]

Oh, sure, let's blame the poor for their poverty

Has anyone blamed everyone who is poor for their poverty,no,they have made the unwelcome suggestion that some are.

It's all their fault

If you live in America and are physically able to work and refuse to either work or receive training for work then yes it is your fault.

the fact that the rich are hogging more than their fair share of the world's wealth

You are not debating the 1% you are debating people of modest to average income,in my case at least, about the issues related to the 1% that neither you or I will ever do anything about.I work for a man who is much much "wealthier" than I am,because of his wealth I am able to earn a decent living and I am grateful for that,my part is that I have sought and accepted training and learning.

1% of people in the world have as much wealth as everyone else put together, the other 99%.

Nothing you will ever do about it

Don't tell me

No,you are convinced of yourself and telling you anything would be pointless

I won't have it.

LOL "it" is not accountable to you.....do what you can because that is what you will be held accountable for.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Fully one third of the global population eke out meagre, precarious lives on less than $2 per day, and many on less even than that.

I'm just addressing the western democracies, not the rest of the world.

 

[Strivax]

LOL "it" is not accountable to you...

You'd be surprised. Last I heard, we lucky westerners all still live in democracies. The world is accountable to me, and you, and all our fellow countrymen, because we all still have votes. Question is, how we use them. For economic justice, or against. For a fairer world, or against. For virtue, or for vice. Our choice.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Strivax]

I'm just addressing the western democracies, not the rest of the world.

Does the rest of the world not matter?

Cheers, Strivax.

 

[Strivax]

You are entitled to question but you are not entitled to impose your will

I do not mean to, and could not anyway, impose my will. Just persuade by rational argument, and moral force.

Best wishes, Strivax

 

[Strivax]

Capitalism's critics hate it but love and covet the wealth it produces and want to take control of it...

A cynical, and quite inaccurate, portrayal of modern, moderate left of centre politics.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Strivax]

They will tell you that the wealthy, which is a relative term, are responsible for poverty...

There is absolute wealth, and absolute poverty. Absolute poverty, for example, is lacking the funds to feed oneself and one's family. Absolute wealth is not so easily measured but could be, for example, having the capital producing sufficient interest to feed oneself and one's family without needing to work. In these ways, wealth and poverty are not relative, but distinct and definitive states of financial status, irrespective of how the rest of the world is doing, which would be the relative measure.

As for the wealthy being responsible for poverty; why yes! If the world's total wealth is X$, and it's population is Y people, and I have riches many times X/Y, then I am preventing the poor from owning their fair share of wealth, because I have it all, and, in that sense, I am responsible for poverty.

Cheers, Strivax.

 

[Tull]

A cynical, and quite incorrect, portrayal of left of centre politics.

Cynical and also quite correct,left of center politics is all about power and control under the guise of equality,to make everyone miserably equally poor.

I do not mean to, and could not anyway, impose my will. Just persuade by rational argument, and moral force.

Lol....you have to be kidding

Does the rest of the world not matter?

Yes,like I said control of the world and everything in it is the goal.

I am preventing the poor from owning wealth

Dictators do this quite often.....any solutions for them ? i'll wait.....if you live in America acquiring wealth is quite possible,everyone I have ever worked for started with nothing and I can tell you that if they are told their wealth does not belong to them and is going to be taken and redistributed they will cease to create it and people like me will be without jobs and poorer which I suspect is what you would like to see anyway considering the possible political potential.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Does the rest of the world not matter?

Cheers, Strivax.

The 'rest of the world' is a long way away from here.

 

[Strivax]

if you live in America acquiring wealth is quite possible,everyone I have ever worked for started with nothing and I can tell you that if they are told their wealth does not belong to them and is going to be taken and redistributed they will cease to create it and people like me will be without jobs and poorer which I suspect is what you would like to see anyway considering the possible political potential.

Uh huh. So that's your problem. If wealth were more equitably distributed around the world, I, Tull, might end up worse off. The fact that poverty kills people is irrelevant; for Tull, only Tull's well-being and comfort matters, and so Tull fears and detests any ideas anyone might have for social progress, because the world revolves around Tull, and Tull's pursuit of his own best interests is far more important than anyone else's endangered life.

But, of course, Tull still loves his neighbour, because, of course, Tull is a good Christian, and that is what good Christians do. He just doesn't care all that much about whether they live or die.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Strivax]

The 'rest of the world' is a long way away from here.

Does that mean it doesn't matter?

Cheers, Strivax.

 

[Chany]

Uh huh. So that's your problem. If wealth were more equitably distributed around the world, I, Tull, might end up worse off. The fact that poverty kills people is irrelevant; for Tull, only Tull's well-being and comfort matters, and so Tull fears and detests any ideas anyone might have for social progress, because the world revolves around Tull, and Tull's pursuit of his own best interests is far more important than anyone else's endangered life.

But, of course, Tull still loves his neighbour, because, of course, Tull is a good Christian, and that is what good Christians do. He just doesn't care all that much whether they live or die.

Best wishes, Strivax.

Please stop personal attacks.

You completely missed the point of his statement. People have limited resources and wherever those resources go could go somewhere else. There is a level of taxation where people stop trying as hard, and thus hurt the economy. This is particularly problematic if this is done on a corporation or individual who runs for-profit businesses and must keep the profit margin up. Something has to give, and its usually through cutting down expenses in the industry through job loss.

Although, personally, I believe the sentiment "you can make it in the US if you try hard enough" is problematic in states of poor economy and, I expect within my lifetime (possibly in the next 20 to 30 years), to be falsified by immigration, offshoring, and, most importantly, advances in AI and technology that will inevitably swallow up the majority of jobs in specific categories.

 

[Strivax]

Please stop personal attacks.

You completely missed the point of his statement. People have limited resources and wherever those resources go could go somewhere else.

Yes, but I think in this case it was necessary to fight fire with fire. The Tull claims he knows my motives, and the motivation of the political left. In the course of this conversation, he has misrepresented me, and left of centre politics, and been extremely rude in the process. It is not, therefore, out of order to draw attention to the self-admitted selfishness of the Tull, and more generally of the political right.

I do not see where the Tull has ever made a point regarding limited resources. Perhaps I have missed some response of the Tull's that vindicates his attitude completely, but I doubt it. I have read the thread through, several times, and cannot find this phrase amongst his reactionary scribblings.

The global economic problem, is, of course, essentially one of rationing scarce resources amongst infinite desires. The idea of the political right, that this is best achieved through laissez-faire economic policies, despite the resultant gross inequalities in the distribution of the world's wealth, is one that can be, and should be, challenged on moral grounds. And so I do so.

Cheers, Strivax.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Although, personally, I believe the sentiment "you can make it in the US if you try hard enough" is problematic in states of poor economy and, I expect within my lifetime (possibly in the next 20 to 30 years), to be falsified by immigration, offshoring, and, most importantly, advances in AI and technology that will inevitably swallow up the majority of jobs in specific categories.

The irony is that foreigners can uproot their families and travel thousands of miles to America for a better life but our own poor are unable to move a few hundred miles to do the same (isn't 'insanity' also staying in an area that has no jobs year after year still expecting to make a living there?).

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Does that mean it doesn't matter?

Cheers, Strivax.

Of course it matters, however most of my charity stays here (except for my donations to Smile Train. Those poor kids have really touched my heart.)

 

[Strivax]

Of course it matters, however most of my charity stays here (except for my donations to Smile Train. Those poor kids have really touched my heart.)

Good for you. We would all do well to remember that total charity is the heartfelt charity so distant from our own interests that we cannot ever expect to benefit from it, personally.

Cheers, Strivax.

 

[Tull]

Uh huh. So that's your problem. If wealth were more equitably distributed around the world, I, Tull, might end up worse off. The fact that poverty kills people is irrelevant; for Tull, only Tull's well-being and comfort matters, and so Tull fears and detests any ideas anyone might have for social progress, because the world revolves around Tull, and Tull's pursuit of his own best interests is far more important than anyone else's endangered life.

But, of course, Tull still loves his neighbour, because, of course, Tull is a good Christian, and that is what good Christians do. He just doesn't care all that much about whether they live or die.

Best wishes, Strivax.

Yeah....more cheap sanctimonious talk from behind the keyboard with all the answers...your ideology has produced nothing but poverty and misery the world over everywhere it has been tried or more accurately forced on people......and yeah I know they weren't doing it right.

 

[Strivax]

Yeah....more cheap sanctimonious talk from behind the keyboard with all the answers...your ideology has produced nothing but poverty and misery the world over everywhere it has been tried or more accurately forced on people......and yeah I know they weren't doing it right.

Well, if it's so easy to prove that the poor are better off when the rich are allowed to become richer, and as rich as they like, why don't you do that, instead of castigating me with insults?

Cheers, Strivax.