Could we have an entire economy...

[Tull]

Well, if it's so easy to prove that the poor are better off when the rich are allowed to become richer, and as rich as they like, why don't you do that, instead of castigating me with insults?

Cheers, Strivax.

Allowing ? that's what suspected all along,you are about forcing people to do something and that will not work,do you know what the word sanctimonious means,it means speaking in such a fashion as to indicate you are better than others and self righteousness is seldom appreciated....so again you must be reminded that you are on the internet talking and that not worth much in the real world and as far as insults are concerned you have insulted everyone who does not agree with you......you seem to want credit for high ideals and good intentions,some sort of forum participation medal I guess....good luck.

 

[Chany]

Yeah....more cheap sanctimonious talk from behind the keyboard with all the answers...your ideology has produced nothing but poverty and misery the world over everywhere it has been tried or more accurately forced on people......and yeah I know they weren't doing it right.

What does communism or socialism have to do with discussing our personal moral obligations or the argument I presented?

1) We are morally obligated to save the drowning child, even though it cost us 30 dollars and everyone else could have done the same.

2) There are currently people dying of easily solved issues that require little money to solve.

3) There are currently causes and organizations we can give to that drastically benefit and reduce these eaisly solved issues and, therefore, save lives.

Therefore,

4) We are morally obligated to give money to these causes and organizations in the same way we are morally obligated to save the drowning child.

Premise two is obviously true, so we can't deny that one. We could bite the bullet and deny premise one, but I doubt we want to do that. We could deny the argument entirely and declare it is false by leading to an absurdity, but, given the above, I'm not sure that's a sound option (I actually think there is merit to this, but this assumes a bunch of stuff about the origins of the argument). The only one to reasonably deny is premise 3, which can be quantified using data.

 

[Hank77]

Sometimes the question of wages has to do with the cost of an education. The more your education cost the more your going to need to make some money to pay for your loans. Also some jobs are more difficult or stressful and people would not work those jobs if they did not get paid more then what they could earn on a less stressful job.

Even if all education is provided for free, many people will not volunteer for things like firemen and EMTs, even part-time, unless it is a paying position.

 

[Strivax]

Allowing ? that's what suspected all along,you are about forcing people to do something and that will not work,do you know what the word sanctimonious means,it means speaking in such a fashion as to indicate you are better than others and self righteousness is seldom appreciated....so again you must be reminded that you are on the internet talking and that not worth much in the real world and as far as insults are concerned you have insulted everyone who does not agree with you......you seem to want credit for high ideals and good intentions,some sort of forum participation medal I guess....good luck.

So there we have it. Politics has nothing to do with high ideals and good intentions, just what benefits the Tull. Anyone who thinks otherwise is self-righteous and sanctimonious. Sad world, Tull! Try Christianity!

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Tull]

What does communism or socialism have to do with discussing our personal moral obligations or the argument I presented?

Perhaps if more people did what they could do rather than browbeating others about what they assume they do not do things would be better,hate to break it you but each individual is accountbale to God for the deeds done and not done in this life......you will be busy giving an account of yourself,which will not include talking about what someone else did.

 

[Tull]

So there we have it. Politics has nothing to do with high ideals and good intentions, just what benefits the Tull. Anyone who thinks otherwise is self-righteous and sanctimonious. Sad world, Tull! Try Christianity!

Politics are about many things but its those who actually accomplish something that matter....that doesn't include you so you just run along and try harder....try Christianity ? you should know that's against the rules to suggest someone is not a Christian and I could report you for it but wont bother for two reasons,first I don't care what you think about me and second seeing that you have allies here nothing would be done about it

You remind me of people I have known who would go to a funeral and then afterward talk about how certain people didn't cry loud or long enough.

 

[Strivax]

What does communism or socialism have to do with discussing our personal moral obligations or the argument I presented?

1) We are morally obligated to save the drowning child, even though it cost us 30 dollars and everyone else could have done the same.

2) There are currently people dying of easily solved issues that require little money to solve.

3) There are currently causes and organizations we can give to that drastically benefit and reduce these eaisly solved issues and, therefore, save lives.

Therefore,

4) We are morally obligated to give money to these causes and organizations in the same way we are morally obligated to save the drowning child.

Premise two is obviously true, so we can't deny that one. We could bite the bullet and deny premise one, but I doubt we want to do that. We could deny the argument entirely and declare it is false by leading to an absurdity, but, given the above, I'm not sure that's a sound option (I actually think there is merit to this, but this assumes a bunch of stuff about the origins of the argument). The only one to reasonably deny is premise 3, which can be quantified using data.

Wouldn't want to deny any of that.

Cheers, Strivax

 

[Chany]

Perhaps if more people did what they could do rather than browbeating others about what they assume they do not do things would be better,hate to break it you but each individual is accountbale to God for the deeds done and not done in this life......you will be busy giving an account of yourself,which will not include talking about what someone else did.

Aren't you interested, then, if you are failing your moral duties that you will be held accountable for? All I'm doing is presenting an argument for morality, one I'm not even sure is true or not.

 

[Tull]

Aren't you interested, then, if you are failing your moral duties that you will be held accountable for?[/QUOTE


Of course,just not allowing someone who knows nothing about me to make that judgment

All I'm doing is presenting an argument for morality, one I'm not even sure is true or not.

I have argued for other forms of morality.....but this is by far the most popular.

 

[Hank77]

Allow me to present the version of the argument I know:

Imagine that you work an hourly wage job and your route to work involves you walking by a public pool. Today, as you walk by, you see a child drowning in the pool. Without help, the child will die. Four other people are around the child watching them drown. You approach the scene and find that no one else wants to save the child. For whatever reason, even though each is completely capable of doing so, each individual will not get into the pool and help the child. You realize that you can save the child without any personal risk to yourself, beyond some average everyday physical movement. However, the pool is extremely muddy due to poor maintenance and will cause you clothes to be damaged (assume your job requires presentable appearance). The whole ordeal (saving the child, making sure the child is properly looked after, going back home to change, etc.) will cost you two hours of wages (let's just say $30).

Are you, in some sense, morally obligated to save the child? Will you have ignored an important moral duty if you do not save the child? Are those who do not bad people?

For me those answers are yes and yes.

 

[Chany]

For me those answers are yes and yes.

Please read the argument I present slightly later then.

 

[Hank77]

The irony is that foreigners can uproot their families and travel thousands of miles to America for a better life but our own poor are unable to move a few hundred miles to do the same (isn't 'insanity' also staying in an area that has no jobs year after year still expecting to make a living there?).

And how has that worked out for most immigrates, are they still living in poverty? By US standards they are.
http://cis.org/2012-profile-of-americas-foreign-born-population

 

[OldWiseGuy]

And how has that worked out for most immigrates, are they still living in poverty? By US standards they are.
http://cis.org/2012-profile-of-americas-foreign-born-population

And the article explains why. No surprises here.

 

[Dave-W]

The world is accountable to me

Well then, you had better be doing a better job of calling North Korea and Isis into account.

 

[Chany]

Well then, you had better be doing a better job of calling North Korea and Isis into account.

The existence of places that cannot be reasonably reached does not diminish the moral imperative caused by the existence of places that can be reasonably reached.

 

[Strivax]

Last I heard, we lucky westerners all still live in democracies. The world is accountable to me, and you, and all our fellow countrymen, because we all still have votes.

Well then, you had better be doing a better job of calling North Korea and Isis into account.

Give me a break! When I first started this job, this holding the world to account, some 50 years ago, half the world was living under communist dictatorship and everyone was building nukes just as fast as they could. If all you have to worry about, now, is one small, bankrupt, isolated rogue state and one despicable, minority, detested rogue element of Islam, then I would say I've done quite well...

(...with a little help from my friends)

Cheers, Strivax.