Could we have an entire economy...

[Strivax]

... If you take away the profit then ... that does tend to cause people not to want to work if there is nothing in it for them.

Uh huh. That's the central point. Thank you.

But do entrepreneurs really need to get excesses of money 'in it for them?' Could we not conceive of a world where people did good things, invented new products, innovated new enterprises, established new services just because that is the way they express themselves, because that is their ambition, to make the world better? And what they would gain (apart from a decent salary) are the intangibles like self respect, and the respect of others, and the integrity that arises out of simply doing what God made one to do, for no other consideration than that it is intrinsicly worth the doing. Are these really such poor incentives to follow one's dream that no one would do so without the bribe of profit?

Best wishes, Strivax.

PS. I might add that the converse is also true, that plenty of people currently do things for profit that God specifically did not make them for, that are not worth the doing, that are detrimental to the world, the animal, vegetable and mineral environment, and/or the physical, psychological and spiritual health of its peoples. S.

 

[Strivax]

... If you take away the profit then you end up with communism ...

Not necessarily. The problem with communism, as it was implemented in the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China, was not that it aspired to a more economically egalitarian world, but that in order to achieve such an end (allegedly) these regimes elevated the state above their component individuals, and brutally removed their rights to freedom, self-expression and self-determination. Capitalist regimes have done the same, with only their rationale being different. When capitalist regimes oppress the people, they like to pretend that everyone will get richer, if only we let the rich get richer. To be honest, I am not persuaded which extremity of the political spectrum is worse, or that it matters.

And, plenty of not-for-profit organisations thrive in free-market environments; they do not need either communist or capitalist politics to prosper them, just freedom and a mission people can ethically subscribe to.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[joshua 1 9]

When capitalist regimes oppress the people, they like to pretend that everyone will get richer, if only we let the rich get richer.

Use to be the rich got richer. Obama learned to much from Hillary where the only people getting rich are people in the government collecting payola. If the Growth rate is not at least 3% then no one is getting richer.

 

[Strivax]

Use to be the rich got richer. Obama learned to much from Hillary where the only people getting rich are people in the government collecting payola. If the Growth rate is not at least 3% then no one is getting richer.

Slightly off-topic, but I think you'll find the world's richest are doing very nicely, thank you. But does that make anyone else better off? Not according to this article. That said, I do not notice that the US particularly oppresses it's citizens, as has happened, say, in South and Central America, or parts of Asia, or Eastern Europe, and where freedom is threatened still by extremism.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

...built solely out of not-for-profit enterprises? Would it be possible to undertake all economic activity just for the sake of making the world a better place, and forego the motivation to become rich, altogether? What would be the advantages of such an economy, and what the disadvantages? What should be the Christian attitude to a national endeavour along these lines?

Just wondering...

Best wishes, Strivax.

It's not possible.

Only a few assemblies of people , whether ekklesia or other tribes, have ever accomplished it, and they are actively persecuted by all the rest of society and governments and religions.

OH, it is RIGHT to do and required of ekklesia -see in ACTS, DEUTERONOMY, GENESIS and REVELATION,
but
not enough people are willing to follow Y'SHUA --- not even enough to provide good examples in the usa.

 

[Strivax]

Of course, if you start out by thinking some idea impossible, then, to be sure, it is impossible. But there are plenty of examples of thriving not-for-profit social enterprises in the US, as there are in my country, the UK. We just need to get behind them, support them, and patronise them with our custom, for an ethical consumer message to get through to the rest of the economy.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Of course, if you start out by thinking some idea impossible, then, to be sure, it is impossible. But there are plenty of examples of thriving not-for-profit social enterprises in the US, as there are in my country, the UK. We just need to get behind them, support them, and patronise them with our custom, for an ethical consumer message to get through to the rest of the economy.

Best wishes, Strivax.

Why not "get behind, support, and patronise" the true believes assembly in your area instead of secular businesses ?
Look again at my post as to "some idea impossible" -
the assemblies around the world that are doing what is right show that it is not impossible to do what is right. Just because most all the world refuses to does not make it impossible.

As to the businesses you support, that's your choice. Check them out.

It is beautiful on earth when there are brothers living together in Y'SHUA - but it is very rare.
Even so, I think it is better to seek this, according to YHWH'S WORD,
more than the secular businesses.

 

[Strivax]

Uh huh. But I am not looking for the agreement of righteous people, already doing righteous things. I want to know the reasons sinners give for not being righteous, to debate with them about the desirability and practicality of goodness.

Cheers, Strivax.

 

[Desk trauma]

Why not "get behind, support, and patronise" the true believes assembly in your area instead of secular businesses ?

Some examples of these assembles would be found where?

 

[Strivax]

Why not "get behind, support, and patronise" the true believes assembly in your area instead of secular businesses ?

By the way, 'tis my belief that all goodness, religious and secular alike, is God's goodness, and His signpost and His gift to us as we navigate our varied routes towards His Heaven. I make no distinction between religious and secular goodness, or the religious and secular businesses that may or may not express that goodness. The important thing is not a business's provenance, but its moral weight and worth.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Fantine]

Old-fashioned companies made profits or provided services and created profits. The problem with today's publicly traded companies is that shareholders have become very greedy. They are not able to accept the normal variations in profits over seasons or years. They want more and more for their paltry investment of money. So if profits are lower than what they hoped for, they downsize or outsource or or lay people off. Stores like Wal-Mart bleed suppliers dry, making them sell products for razor-thin margins--and send the pain down to yet another layer of the economy. Entrepreneurs like a friend of mine who made pet accessories are told that the factory in Mexico which used to produce her products is too expensive. She needs to go to China. She declines, because she can at least travel to Mexico easily and insure quality. She can't do that in China. Companies merge or are acquired, or sold and then resold in pieces.

I am well aware that sometimes hard measures are necessary, but all too often there would be profits anyway--just not big enough profits to please the stock owners--who think they're entitled to 9% a year, let's say, while passbook savings holders might get 1/2 of 1%.

There's nothing wrong with corporate America that recognizing that strong companies and productive workers are more important in our society than rapacious stockholders won't help.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

In decades of avid, searching, voracious reading,
I found (and no - did not note references etc EXCEPT Martin Luther)
and
in the BIBLE
that all the companies (almost all) are fraudulent and crooks.
Corporations have no heart, no soul and no conscience - as Martin Luther said and many before and since him said , their ONLY motive is GREED.

 

[aieyiamfu]

if the principle of that economy is you will receive no more for contributing greatly than he who contributes nothing then no it will not work.

How do you value both contribution and reward in a society working for the betterment of human kind?

 

[Tull]

How do you value both contribution and reward in a society working for the betterment of human kind?

Its all fantasy so anything goes

 

[Inkfingers]

...built solely out of not-for-profit enterprises? Would it be possible to undertake all economic activity just for the sake of making the world a better place, and forego the motivation to become rich, altogether? What would be the advantages of such an economy, and what the disadvantages? What should be the Christian attitude to a national endeavour along these lines?

For people to create a non-avaricious economy (which is what I think you mistakenly call a non-profit one) would require that people lose fear and gain a far more corporate identity. They have to lose fear because part of the attraction of riches is an idol thought to protect you from hardship and danger. And they would have to gain a more corporate identity because the other part of the attraction of riches is the vanity of ascendence over others.

Which is never going to happen for mankind as a whole (or even majority) as even the Bible says that only a few can and will walk the holy path, whilst the many will always walk the unrighteous one.

If you are wondering why I said non-avaricious is the more correct term than non-profit, there is nothing wrong with seeking profit (it is profit that has us inventing and using gas cookers rather than having to bang rocks together) but rather in selfishness and greed (whether in idolatry of money or of ourselves).

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

people lose fear and gain a far more corporate identity

Living as they did willingly and joyously in ACTS, and variously other times and places though never predominantly on earth at any time or place, earth being a different kingdom for now instead of YHWH'S for the vast majority.

 

[Inkfingers]

Living as they did willingly and joyously in ACTS, and variously other times and places though never predominantly on earth at any time or place, earth being a different kingdom for now instead of YHWH'S for the vast majority.

Indeed

 

[Dave-W]

The problem with communism, as it was implemented in the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China,

Except that was not true communism (as laid down by Marx and Engels). It was socialism.

 

[Tull]

Always the opportunity to pass judgement,neither poverty or riches is a virtue and yes people use money to avoid trouble and danger like anyone with common sense would

 

[grasping the after wind]

In order to structure a society that complies with a particular view of what is ideal one must eliminate all those that find that view mistaken or wrong or not in line with their own ideal. This elimination must be continuous as new members of the society enter it with diverse ideals and as old members will from time to time find they no longer agree with the particular view of what is ideal that is held by the ruling agents that are in charge of informing the rest of society what is ideal. The further that particular ideal strays from the instinctual nature of the members of the society the larger the number will be that need to be eliminated in order to ensure compliance.