Christianity... and the fact of evolution

[Jamie Lee]

I think most Biblical Christians do not have a problem with the word "day" meaning a period of time because the word is used that way in other places in Genesis (eg Genesis 2:4)

Yeah, and thats the point im making-young earth creationists get caught up on the Bible stating that it was created in 6 days and insist evolution cant be true because of that, but seem to miss the fact that it would be impossible or at least unneccessary for it to mean a literal 24 hour day since the sun wasnt created yet. It could have meant any period of time.

 

[mmksparbud]

If the earth was created in 6 literal days, but the sun wasnt created until the 4th day, what were those first 3 days all about?
Where did the light and darkness and evening and morning come from?

Research "invisible light"--not sunlight--just light. God set up evening and morning (evening always comes first)there is light -invisible to us, but certainly not to God. There is long wave light, light that has nothing to do with the sun and a strange thing they just discovered about light coming from outside this galaxy from quasars and other things and research black holes.
He set up 24 hr day at the start--the earth's rotation. This is an evolutionists reason for the earth's rotation:

"The Earth spins because it formed in the accretion disk of a cloud of hydrogen that collapsed down from mutual gravity and needed to conserve its angular momentum. It continues to spin because of inertia. The reason it’s all the same direction is because they all formed together in the same Solar Nebula, billions of years ago."http://www.universetoday.com/14491/why-does-the-earth-rotate/

I, if course, prefer to believe it is because God set up that way from the start.

 

[ken777]

Yeah, and thats the point im making-young earth creationists get caught up on the Bible stating that it was created in 6 days and insist evolution cant be true because of that, but seem to miss the fact that it would be impossible or at least unneccessary for it to mean a literal 24 hour day since the sun wasnt created yet. It could have meant any period of time.

It's not just "young earth creationists" who have a problem with evolution. I have seen nothing in the evidence (fossil records, structural & DNA similarities, adaptation, vestigial organs) that persuades me God did not create each creature "according to their kinds".

 

[Indent]

If that is true then how can you say that evolution is fact?

There's never enough reason to think "God is precluded."

The Law of Conservation of Energy is a fact. Suppose I conducted a sensitive experiment to confirm the law, but I happen to accidentally or intentionally shine a light into the system. Would this disprove the law? No, it means the experiment was compromised.

It'd be impossible to prove there is no invisible agent. But there's questions of consistency, certainly.

Evolution is a fact, like the earth orbits the sun is a fact. Perhaps God is playing a trick on us.

It's still more reasonable to accept evolution than "because I said so." It all comes down to hermanuetics, and not because a group of Christian want deadening conformity.

 

[mmksparbud]

Yeah, and thats the point im making-young earth creationists get caught up on the Bible stating that it was created in 6 days and insist evolution cant be true because of that, but seem to miss the fact that it would be impossible or at least unneccessary for it to mean a literal 24 hour day since the sun wasnt created yet. It could have meant any period of time.

There are some who interpret the Hebrew word "yom" as eon, or time period. But that is not the case. There are many Jewish sites that reject that theory for Gen 1 because of the context it is used in. Also, Exodus
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
He wrote this twice as the first tablets were broken, and the word Yom is used as a 24 hr day, not eons. It also makes no sense to go back and forth from eon to 24 day ---He set up the Sabbath eon?--God in Gen 1 says He blessed the 7th day--not the Sabbath eon there either. Evening and morning are not considered long periods of time by any meaning of the Hebrew words.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

How can it be possible for the earth to be created in 6 literal days if days didnt exist yet?

According to Scripture it was evening and then night, the first day...I believe God tells us that this day is the length of our known day. It is the measure of a day not the measure of light.
Is this your point or did I miss it?

 

[Indent]

Yeah, and thats the point im making-young earth creationists get caught up on the Bible stating that it was created in 6 days and insist evolution cant be true because of that, but seem to miss the fact that it would be impossible or at least unneccessary for it to mean a literal 24 hour day since the sun wasnt created yet. It could have meant any period of time.

It's strange that people are fixated on "day." When most Christians have never read the Hebrew bible where it's abundantly clear that the ancient Israelites had an ancient worldview.

It's good that Christians recognize the bible was written in another language. It needs to be taken a step further and recognize the bible was written people from thousands of years ago, and that the audience is much different than we are.

These people had different intellectual categories.

These are a people that thought the mind was associated with the intestines. Good thing our translations are working hard for us. That the ancient Israelites believed that there was a solid dome over the earth, that the earth was flat, and in fact believed in a 3-tier universe like other ancient Near Eastern cultures.

It's not enough that these cultures communicated through myths (which can be a vehicle for truth), which is rather sophisticated but foreign was to express ideas, concepts and messages. I happen to think Genesis establishes some of fundamental things for Christian faith, none of which has anything to do with material origins.

Instead Christians are preoccupied with dismissing evolution because it's inconvenient.

 

[ken777]

Instead Christians are preoccupied with dismissing evolution because it's inconvenient.

There are theological implications to consider if you say humans are simply evolved animals ... and whether those implications are consistent with the rest of Scripture.

 

[Seth Rhinehart]

If evolution is one of the strongest explanatory theories in any academic field, I mean, the evidence is simply overwhelming, how do Christians reconcile this?

What about the Biblical scholars that generally dismiss Genesis as a "historical" representation... but rather "myth" (however you want to define that)?

I understand I'm courting "controversy" here, but I'd genuinely like to hear this, supposedly, untouchable theological answer.

I used to spend a lot of time fretting about the various incompatibilities of Christianity and Science, but I suspect that was just the process of being freed from years of forced academic indoctrination. More and more I see the vanity of trying to know the material world of death and I orient on the spiritual realm of eternal life. I think a person just has to choose a path and realize that such decisions come with a cost. In this case the price Christians pay is that the world thinks us foolish, but that's nothing new. In short, I don't see any reason a follower of Christ should give Evolutionary Theory much thought at all.

 

[mmksparbud]

According to Scripture it was evening and then night, the first day...I believe God tells us that this day is the length of our known day. It is the measure of a day not the measure of light.
Is this your point or did I miss it?

That should be evening and then morning (not night).

 

[Armoured]

I used to spend a lot of time fretting about the various incompatibilities of Christianity and Science, but I suspect that was just the process of being freed from years of forced academic indoctrination. More and more I see the vanity of trying to know the material world of death and I orient on the spiritual realm of eternal life. I think a person just has to choose a path and realize that such decisions come with a cost. In this case the price Christians pay is that the world thinks us foolish, but that's nothing new. In short, I don't see any reason a follower of Christ should give Evolutionary Theory much thought at all.

Because even Christians like things like public health, vaccines and animal husbandry?

 

[ken777]

There are some who interpret the Hebrew word "yom" as eon, or time period. But that is not the case. There are many Jewish sites that reject that theory for Gen 1 because of the context it is used in. Also, Exodus
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
He wrote this twice as the first tablets were broken, and the word Yom is used as a 24 hr day, not eons. It also makes no sense to go back and forth from eon to 24 day ---He set up the Sabbath eon?--God in Gen 1 says He blessed the 7th day--not the Sabbath eon there either. Evening and morning are not considered long periods of time by any meaning of the Hebrew words.

Isn't the traditional Jewish 24 hour day evening to evening?

The only place I could find "the evening and the morning" outside Genesis chapter 1 is in Daniel 8:26 where it does not appear to mean 24 hours.

 

[dad]

If evolution is one of the strongest explanatory theories in any academic field, I mean, the evidence is simply overwhelming, how do Christians reconcile this?

Easy. There was some evolving and adapting but that all was after the fact of the created kinds.

 

[ken777]

I used to spend a lot of time fretting about the various incompatibilities of Christianity and Science, but I suspect that was just the process of being freed from years of forced academic indoctrination. More and more I see the vanity of trying to know the material world of death and I orient on the spiritual realm of eternal life. I think a person just has to choose a path and realize that such decisions come with a cost. In this case the price Christians pay is that the world thinks us foolish, but that's nothing new. In short, I don't see any reason a follower of Christ should give Evolutionary Theory much thought at all.

Basically I agree but sometimes it is necessary to have an answer for our teenage children.

 

[Lepanto]

Evolution remains a theory, not a fact.

Totally agree. Microevolution might be a fact, but not macroevolution.
I think people have been misled.

 

[Armoured]

Totally agree. Microevolution might be a fact, but not macroevolution.
I think people have been misled.

because walking across town makes sense, but walking across the country is impossible.

 

[prodromos]

Hello VC.

I read the link 'evolution.berkeley.edu', the question arises. Is this observed speciation
or is this just hypothesis?

In the link it stated that they thought they were observing the "beginnings of speciation". So no, they didn't claim to have actually observed speciation. I suspect what they are observing is a narrowing of the gene pool in those bird populations rather than what one would expect if evolution was occuring.

 

[mmksparbud]

Isn't the traditional Jewish 24 hour day evening to evening?

The only place I could find "the evening and the morning" outside Genesis chapter 1 is in Daniel 8:26 where it does not appear to mean 24 hours.

Well. yes---
The day starts in the evening, and ends at the end of the morning. So, yes, It's 12 hrs, evening, 12 hour morning, 24 hr.
There are 24 verses with evening and morning mentioned. From Gen to Acts. Those obviously mean 12 hr---they say--from evening unto the morning, or from morning to evening, or morning till evening. Dan. 8 I believe seems to indicate the same thing--
The difference with Gen. 1 is that the days are numbered, Day one to day 7. The evening and the morning, day one. The evening and the morning day two--and so on. There really can be no other interpretation but 24 hr days. Evening and morning--one eon? The vegetation was all on day 3---then the sun on the 4th day. To read that as though it was an eon when the vegetation was without sun, makes no sense whatsoever. That the sun was created the next day--so they didn't have the sun for several hrs, no big deal, they won't die, there was still the invisible light from day one till then. And again, to then say that after He had created man He rested from creating for an eon and hallowed and sanctified an eon makes no sense either.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
And you csn not then read Exodus as eons either.
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

He did not instruct the Jews to not work for eons---He says He created the world in 6 days there, and He wrote it with His own finger twice. He ceased work on the 7th day and He sanctified that day, not that age.

 

[Seth Rhinehart]

Basically I agree but sometimes it is necessary to have an answer for our teenage children.

Amen. I still have a few years on that answer, but God will see us through.

 

[Jamie Lee]

Well. yes---
The day starts in the evening, and ends at the end of the morning. So, yes, It's 12 hrs, evening, 12 hour morning, 24 hr.
There are 24 verses with evening and morning mentioned. From Gen to Acts. Those obviously mean 12 hr---they say--from evening unto the morning, or from morning to evening, or morning till evening. Dan. 8 I believe seems to indicate the same thing--
The difference with Gen. 1 is that the days are numbered, Day one to day 7. The evening and the morning, day one. The evening and the morning day two--and so on. There really can be no other interpretation but 24 hr days. Evening and morning--one eon? The vegetation was all on day 3---then the sun on the 4th day. To read that as though it was an eon when the vegetation was without sun, makes no sense whatsoever. That the sun was created the next day--so they didn't have the sun for several hrs, no big deal, they won't die, there was still the invisible light from day one till then. And again, to then say that after He had created man He rested from creating for an eon and hallowed and sanctified an eon makes no sense either.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
And you csn not then read Exodus as eons either.
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

He did not instruct the Jews to not work for eons---He says He created the world in 6 days there, and He wrote it with His own finger twice. He ceased work on the 7th day and He sanctified that day, not that age.

You are forgetting that every seven years was also set apart as a sabbatical year, where no field was to be plowed. So its symbolic.
However I dont think people understood my point of view.
Im not simply saying that Genesis was symbolic. What Im suggesting is something competely different.
In the Book of Enoch, which is apocryphal but quoted in the canonical book of Jude, God states that before the sun was made, he shined His own Light down on the earth and went from east to west. That implies during creation we were revolving around God. And if thats true it would make the days spoken of in Genesis 1 revolutions around God Himself, which could have taken billions of years and still have been literal 6 days, but not solar days of 24 hour periods. In Genesis "day" is defined when God creates light and says, "and the light he called "day," and the darkness he called "night". Now there was morning, and there was evening-the first day." Thats talking about light and dark periods, and revolutions around something-but not the sun, since God created it on day 4 "to mark days, seasons, and years."
Imo creation was too complcated for them to understand in the day of Moses and probably still too complicated for us to fully comprehend now. God can do anything so He could have done any number of different things in the process.