How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

[Geralt]

you can ask God yourself. my understanding of scripture is limited to what is written. and i have not read anywhere that God sends babies to hell which you obviously want an affirmation. try to play the inquisitor to someone else ok.

I am asking for your understanding of scripture.
Children die all the time. Is death in and of itself “bad”?
Sending new born and unborn babies to hell is unfair and unjust, but God taking their life away is not unjust or unfair.

 

[fhansen]

Is the grace of God irresistible as the "I" in TULIP proclaims?

What enables some men to receive the grace of God unto salvation?

OTOH, what prevents some men from receiving God's grace?

Free will. That's what allowed Adam to fall, and that's what allows man to remain in his fallen state, or return there if he so desires. Free will necessarily involves the ability to resist and oppose God's will. Any and all moral evil we experience in this life is the direct result of some created being's abuse of his will, because evil is certainly not God's will.

God desires that none should perish, and yet we understand that some will perish anyway. The only possible explanation for this is that God allows His desires to be overidden by ours, with punishment and eternal exile from Him the less than desirable outcome. And this possibility of God's will not being done is the very reason that we inhabitants of planet earth are instructed by Jesus to pray that His will should be done.

We need to ask, did God want Adam to eat of the forbidden fruit when He commanded Adam not to eat of it?

 

[ToBeLoved]

you can ask God yourself. my understanding of scripture is limited to what is written. and i have not read anywhere that God sends babies to hell which you obviously want an affirmation. try to play the inquisitor to someone else ok.

True.

Bling what is your scriptural reference that you would think God sends babies to hell?

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

I am asking for your understanding of scripture.

Children die all the time. Is death in and of itself “bad”?

Sending new born and unborn babies to hell is unfair and unjust, but God taking their life away is not unjust or unfair.

Babies do not go to Hell. Jesus never said they do and a merciful all loving God would never send babies he'd just sent to families to Hell after those babies died. Babies do not sin and scripture tells us the sins of the father, (and the mother naturally) , do not pass unto the child. Everyone is responsible for their own behaviors when they're accountable for those behavior choices.

If babies went to Hell, Jesus would not have said that we the faithful need to be like unto little children in our faith if we wish to enter his kingdom.
Matthew 18:3-5:
Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.

 

[Stillicidia]

The grace of God, when the bible says grace, means empowerment.

What enables some men to receive the grace of God unto salvation?

The empowerment enables them to accomplish this.

To be holy and free from sin, in your own ability, is almost funny, you need empowerment.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The grace of God, when the bible says grace, means empowerment.



The empowerment enables them to accomplish this.

To be holy and free from sin, in your own ability, is almost funny, you need empowerment.

Isn't the question How do they come to salvation?

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Isn't the question How do they come to salvation?

If it is what would be your answer please?

 

[ToBeLoved]

If it is what would be your answer please?

Well my opinion is not Calvinism and is not Armiaism. I really don't the answers to some key concepts that I feel are still a mystery. I know we have free-will to do evil, just as Adam & Eve chose not to follow God's command in Eden. But I also know that their are verses in the Bible that do have to be explained that seem to indicate that we are drawn to God, ie "You will not come to me, unless the Father draws you". God knew us before we were created. Now exactly what that means, I'm not sure. It could be because He is Omnipresent and not held to time as we are on earth that the past, present and future are not deliniated and separate to Him. Which would at a high level mean that even though we live our lives in the present for us, that could not be the present for God. The past, present and future could all be at the same time, so then He would have known us before we were born, those of us who have a relationship with God through prayer and faith. I do not take a hard line either way. There are verses that support free-will, even Lucifer had free will in order to rebel and since he took 1/3 of the angels with him, that means the angels had free will also and that 2/3 chose to stay with God.

So somehow God knows us before we live our lives, yet He knows what will happen in our lives and what happens to the earth and how everything goes down and Revelation has been written about the future that hasn't happened yet. God also knew in the Old Testament what exactly would happen to Christ. It is written I believe in Isaaih 53 . So obviously God knows it and I don't say that I totally understand but I think it is the element of time.

The word 'predestined' is used several times and I'm not sure if we have the word right as it has been translated from Greek or what that would mean except that God is out of the realm of time. But that cannot be proven to me nor not proven. It is an I'm not sure. I think the word predestined could mean before time in our understanding came. Yet we live within time. Somewhat confusing still to me but I don't know how big of a deal it is how we have come to Christ, but the fact that we have and we will spend eternity with Him.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Well my opinion is not Calvinism and is not Armiaism. I really don't the answers to some key concepts that I feel are still a mystery. I know we have free-will to do evil, just as Adam & Eve chose not to follow God's command in Eden. But I also know that their are verses in the Bible that do have to be explained that seem to indicate that we are drawn to God, ie "You will not come to me, unless the Father draws you". God knew us before we were created. Now exactly what that means, I'm not sure. It could be because He is Omnipresent and not held to time as we are on earth that the past, present and future are not deliniated and separate to Him. Which would at a high level mean that even though we live our lives in the present for us, that could not be the present for God. The past, present and future could all be at the same time, so then He would have known us before we were born, those of us who have a relationship with God through prayer and faith. I do not take a hard line either way. There are verses that support free-will, even Lucifer had free will in order to rebel and since he took 1/3 of the angels with him, that means the angels had free will also and that 2/3 chose to stay with God.

So somehow God knows us before we live our lives, yet He knows what will happen in our lives and what happens to the earth and how everything goes down and Revelation has been written about the future that hasn't happened yet. God also knew in the Old Testament what exactly would happen to Christ. It is written I believe in Isaaih 53 . So obviously God knows it and I don't say that I totally understand but I think it is the element of time.

The word 'predestined' is used several times and I'm not sure if we have the word right as it has been translated from Greek or what that would mean except that God is out of the realm of time. But that cannot be proven to me nor not proven. It is an I'm not sure. I think the word predestined could mean before time in our understanding came. Yet we live within time. Somewhat confusing still to me but I don't know how big of a deal it is how we have come to Christ, but the fact that we have and we will spend eternity with Him.

Great observation and especially about predestined as translated currently in scripture.

I also wonder about that. Because as the scriptures compiled read when they speak of predestination, God knowing us before the womb, calling whom he will to salvation, it sounds like everything is fate. Predetermined by the creator of it all. And we're simply following in these grooves if you will that were laid out by God so as to not really in truth exercise our free will but rather, are only thinking we are when God has predestined everything.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Great observation and especially about predestined as translated currently in scripture.

I also wonder about that. Because as the scriptures compiled read when they speak of predestination, God knowing us before the womb, calling whom he will to salvation, it sounds like everything is fate. Predetermined by the creator of it all. And we're simply following in these grooves if you will that were laid out by God so as to not really in truth exercise our free will but rather, are only thinking we are when God has predestined everything.

Yes, exactly what I was saying.

I don't feel that I need to totally understand all the mysteries of God, I have no problem saying I don't know but this is what I think. Because God is complex, not simple. There is a lot we won't know on this earth. Jesus told the disciples that He would have told them the mysteries of heaven but they would not have been able to spiritually discern it. I don't know if any of us living as human beings would understand it. If the disciples who were taught personally by Jesus could not have, then I'm sure I would not either.

 

[bling]

you can ask God yourself. my understanding of scripture is limited to what is written. and i have not read anywhere that God sends babies to hell which you obviously want an affirmation. try to play the inquisitor to someone else ok.

Scripture can not always be taken at face value some has to be interpreted. You are interpreting scripture to say: "God does not say he sends babies to hell, while some people do interpret scripture to say just that, so at what age or action do you find scripture saying these people are hell bound?

 

[Skala]

I am not instigating an argument, rather a constructive dialogue of understanding.

Some might feel compelled to say this withholding of grace is not fair.

"If damnation be justice, then mercy may choose its own object" - Edwards

In otherwords, if all men deserve hell, then mercy can choose one person but not another, and there is nothing wrong with that, and no injustice is done.
Person A deserves hell, and God sends them to hell = justice
Person B deserves hell, and God saves them = mercy

Mercy is not injustice (an act of evil).

Did God simply never offer the grace of God to the non-elect ?

He offers it to them (the gospel is proclaimed to all men, both elect and non-elect alike), but because of their rebellion and hardness of heart, the non-elect freely and willingly choose to reject God's offer of salvation.

The reason the elect accept God's offer is not because they are somehow more holy or more righteous, but because God - freely and mercifully - changes their hearts of stone and removes their blindfold. These are acts of mercy and grace that God is not obligated to do.

Thus, grace and grace alone is the reason anyone at all ever responds positively to the gospel message.

 

[fhansen]

"If damnation be justice, then mercy may choose its own object" - Edwards

In otherwords, if all men deserve hell, then mercy can choose one person but not another, and there is nothing wrong with that, and no injustice is done.
Person A deserves hell, and God sends them to hell = justice
Person B deserves hell, and God saves them = mercy

Mercy is not injustice (an act of evil).

So you'll be ok with this, then, if you turn out to be numbered among the reprobate?

 

[Skala]

So you'll be ok with this, then, if you turn out to be numbered among the reprobate?

Are you saying you wouldn't be ok with God's justice? That is very telling.

 

[sdowney717]

So you'll be ok with this, then, if you turn out to be numbered among the reprobate?

By their words and their deeds fallen man denies Christ and the gospel. If you reject Christ then your reject God who sent Him.
They are without hope and without God in the world, an absolutely hopeless case, terminally ill, dying they die, perishing they perish with their minds blinded by Satan, unless God shows to them His mercy and saves them from their sins, they will die in their sins.

Ephesians 2
Brought Near by His Blood
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

And do not think there is a prevenient grace, Paul here is describing saved persons in v13 who are in Christ versus those who are without God and without hope who are strangers and aliens to God's covenant of promise.

The promise from God is that Christ will save His people from their sins and no one else will be saved.

 

[sdowney717]

Matthew 1:20-23New King James Version (NKJV)
20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

This word spoken to Joseph by an angel sent from God proves that Jesus saves to the utmost those that come to God through Him, that our salvation is one of everlasting life. That is God's promise to His people, everlasting life because Christ saves His people from their sins.

 

[Geralt]

How you can you 'interprete' when there is no reference? You would be better of asking this question to a mystic as they are experts in storytelling. You could also simply just state your own position and let others affirm or deny it.

Scripture can not always be taken at face value some has to be interpreted. You are interpreting scripture to say: "God does not say he sends babies to hell, while some people do interpret scripture to say just that, so at what age or action do you find scripture saying these people are hell bound?

 

[OzSpen]

"If damnation be justice, then mercy may choose its own object" - Edwards

In otherwords, if all men deserve hell, then mercy can choose one person but not another, and there is nothing wrong with that, and no injustice is done.
Person A deserves hell, and God sends them to hell = justice
Person B deserves hell, and God saves them = mercy

Mercy is not injustice (an act of evil).

However, if your view is the choosing of one person over another by the absolute predestination (decree) of God, then it's discrimination by God, which is committing injustice.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Are you saying you wouldn't be ok with God's justice? That is very telling.

I'm not OK with your labelling God as discriminatory and thus a practitioner of injustice. That is very telling!

 

[ToBeLoved]

Deep breath everyone (including me) step away from the keyboard for 5 minutes. We all need a time-out.