How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?

[Hank77]

Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

the problem is NOT the decision to reject, but our very nature which is enmity against God. we are BY NATURE Children of Wrath, ALL of mankind. and this nature of our unregenerate life is like gravity that inclines us to sin (passion of the flesh, desires of the body, among many others.) and cannot be helped.

Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Past tense.

 

[jeager016]

"How can the grace of God be resisted by some yet received by others?"
Really?
Isn't that a matter of personal beliefs or lack of beliefs?
"If you don't wanna you ain't gonna."

 

[Geralt]

the audience was obviously the christians in ephesians.

the point was everyone (including the Ephesians before they became christians) was by NATURE the children of wrath, like the rest of MANKIND. it is the default NATURE state of everyone on this planet.

Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Past tense.

 

[Geralt]

- of course not, God did not say they will die "immediately". God only said they will die, and they eventually did die.

- without disobedience, there would have been no judgment nor separation, therefore no need for God to say what he said in Genesis 3:17-19. in fact not only did Adam and Eve died, but plants and animals as well (withered in time, and not die immediately). even the ground now born thorns and thistles.

- Rom 5:17 For if because of one man's trespass (lapse, offense) death reigned through that one,

- yes he did, but then again it did not say 'immediately'.

2Ti 1:10 but now it has been revealed to us through the coming of our Savior, Christ Jesus. He has ended the power of death and through the gospel has revealed immortal life.
​

1 But Adam didn't die physically the day he ate of the tree. How did he die the day he ate of the tree?

2 It doesn't say returning to the ground is a curse. In fact, it's a blessing. Do you not want to be in Heaven with the Lord? I do!​

3 It doesn't say everyone dies because of Adam sinned. It says death spread to all men because all (men) sinned.

4 If physical death is a curse, then Jesus didn't take that curse away for any man.

 

[EmSw]

- of course not, God did not say they will die "immediately". God only said they will die, and they eventually did die.

Really? Are you reading the same Bible I read? It does say this -

Genesis 2:17
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

Does your Bible say, 'for in the day that you eat'?

- without disobedience, there would have been no judgment nor separation, therefore no need for God to say what he said in Genesis 3:17-19. in fact not only did Adam and Eve died, but plants and animals as well (withered in time, and not die immediately). even the ground now born thorns and thistles.

Geralt, go ahead and believe it is a physical death. Everyone freely chooses what they believe. But do know this, you will be under this curse the rest of your life.

- Rom 5:17 For if because of one man's trespass (lapse, offense) death reigned through that one,

- yes he did, but then again it did not say 'immediately'.

2Ti 1:10 but now it has been revealed to us through the coming of our Savior, Christ Jesus. He has ended the power of death and through the gospel has revealed immortal life.​

Wow! You gave me a verse which states Jesus ended the power of death, but yet, every born again believer will die (is cursed). You want to give death its power over men, even though Jesus ended its power.

 

[Geralt]

tricks up your sleeve as always, playing with sentences. of course it was both spiritual and physical death, and here you are playing dumb as if i was talking only about physical death. physical death was the discussion, and now you are inserting the spiritual side as if i totally ignore this factor.

as i have written, the curse is not given if there was no disobedience- this you did not comment. what? you cannot find any tricks to disprove this ?

spiritual death was immediate, but physical death (takes passage of time via natural disintegration of the physical, or immediate if forced by another-killing). and it passed on with the rest of humanity.​

Really? Are you reading the same Bible I read? It does say this -

Genesis 2:17
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

Does your Bible say, 'for in the day that you eat'?

Geralt, go ahead and believe it is a physical death. Everyone freely chooses what they believe. But do know this, you will be under this curse the rest of your life.

Wow! You gave me a verse which states Jesus ended the power of death, but yet, every born again believer will die (is cursed). You want to give death its power over men, even though Jesus ended its power.

 

[ToBeLoved]

This is basically the case, except that it should be explained more like: because of God's grace, he sent his son to die for us, and as a result he has has forgiven everyone their sins. That's the Good News. Those who believe that and as a result yield to God's lordship are those that end up receiving the benefit of God's grace.

I'm not sure this is correct. I think Jesus paid the penalty for all sin, overcame sin, but only those who accept God's free unmerited gift of salvation are forgiven.

 

[EmSw]

tricks up your sleeve as always, playing with sentences. of course it was both spiritual and physical death, and here you are playing dumb as if i was talking only about physical death. physical death was the discussion, and now you are inserting the spiritual side as if i totally ignore this factor.​

Why didn't you say spiritual death when our discussion started?

Here is your first mention of death in post #155 - 'because death is the consequence of sin. and humans and babies are all subject to death and decay simply because they all share the sin and consequence of adam.'

I think you are speaking of natural death, and not spiritual death.

as i have written, the curse is not given if there was no disobedience- this you did not comment. what? you cannot find any tricks to disprove this ?

Since you will die physically, I'm guessing you believe you are a son of disobedience. Is this correct?

Ephesians 2:2
in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Colossians 3:6
Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,

No tricks needed, just the truth.

spiritual death was immediate, but physical death (takes passage of time via natural disintegration of the physical, or immediate if forced by another-killing). and it passed on with the rest of humanity.

So a man will die on account of another's sins? You're eating sour grapes (Ezekiel 18).

 

[sdowney717]

the audience was obviously the christians in ephesians.

the point was everyone (including the Ephesians before they became christians) was by NATURE the children of wrath, like the rest of MANKIND. it is the default NATURE state of everyone on this planet.

"and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others."

Thankfully we were not children of wrath, we were not of them that are children of wrath. God appointed us to salvation and not His wrath.

1 Thessalonians 5:8-10New King James Version (NKJV)

8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

Again Christ dies for His own sheep

 

[sdowney717]

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5087&t=NKJV
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

The word appoint in the Greek means to set, put, place, make, fix, establish.
So then some were made by God to obtain salvation and not destruction in hell.
That some were appointed prior to salvation means some were chosen beforehand to obtain salvation at a later time.
For who obtains salvation unless he has been appointed? First they are appointed, then they obtain salvation.
Only the elect who are those appointed by God, obtain salvation while the rest are blinded. Romans 11:7-8

Which really shows again God's choosing of us for salvation, everlasting life, as opposed to God set, put, placed, made, established into a place of His wrath those who simply remain dead in sin.

Paul is emphasizing Christ died for us (His elect who form His church, us individually).
Therefore because Christ did that, dying for us, we are appointed for salvation and not His wrath, which is a guarantee of salvation, because scripture can not be broken.

10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

 

[EmSw]

"and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others."

Thankfully we were not children of wrath, we were not of them that are children of wrath. God appointed us to salvation and not His wrath.

1 Thessalonians 5:8-10New King James Version (NKJV)

8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

Again Christ dies for His own sheep

sdowney, Paul is talking to the 'false' brethren in Ephesus and Thessalonica. Let's be consistent.

 

[ToBeLoved]

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G5087&t=NKJV 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
The word appoint in the Greek means to set, put, place, make, fix, establish.
So then some were made by God to obtain salvation and not destruction in hell.
That some were appointed prior to salvation means some were chosen beforehand to obtain salvation at a later time.For who obtains salvation unless he has been appointed? First they are appointed, then they obtain salvation. Only the elect who are those appointed by God, obtain salvation while the rest are blinded. Romans 11:7-8

Which really shows again God's choosing of us for salvation, everlasting life, as opposed to God set, put, placed, made, established into a place of His wrath those who simply remain dead in sin.

Paul is emphasizing Christ died for us (His elect who form His church, us individually).
Therefore because Christ did that, dying for us, we are appointed for salvation and not His wrath, which is a guarantee of salvation, because scripture can not be broken.

10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

A true Calvinist finally grace's us with their presence. I feel a headache coming on.

 

[Geralt]

true. but correctly, it is not 'we are not' but ' we are no longer'. all because of christ.

"and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others."

Thankfully we were not children of wrath, we were not of them that are children of wrath. God appointed us to salvation and not His wrath.

1 Thessalonians 5:8-10New King James Version (NKJV)

8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

Again Christ dies for His own sheep

 

[Geralt]

Rom 5:18 So then, as the one sin condemned all people, in the same way the one righteous act sets all people free and gives them life. ​

that basically is THE METHOD OF SALVATION. that by the sin of one man, everyone is condemned, and yet by the righteous act of one man the same is reconciled.

So a man will die on account of another's sins? You're eating sour grapes (Ezekiel 18).

 

[EmSw]

Rom 5:18 So then, as the one sin condemned all people, in the same way the one righteous act sets all people free and gives them life. ​

that basically is THE METHOD OF SALVATION. that by the sin of one man, everyone is condemned, and yet by the righteous act of one man the same is reconciled.

So everyone is given life by the righteous act of Jesus.

 

[Geralt]

try to open read your bible and the context for once before asking questions.
quite embarrassing you are asking all these questions looking for loopholes.

Rom 5:17 It is true that through the sin of one man death began to rule because of that one man. But how much greater is the result of what was done by the one man, Jesus Christ! All who receive God's abundant grace and are freely put right with him will rule in life through Christ.
Rom 5:18 So then, as the one sin condemned all people, in the same way the one righteous act sets all people free and gives them life.

So everyone is given life by the righteous act of Jesus.

 

[EmSw]

try to open read your bible and the context for once before asking questions.
quite embarrassing you are asking all these questions looking for loopholes.

Rom 5:17 It is true that through the sin of one man death began to rule because of that one man. But how much greater is the result of what was done by the one man, Jesus Christ! All who receive God's abundant grace and are freely put right with him will rule in life through Christ.
Rom 5:18 So then, as the one sin condemned all people, in the same way the one righteous act sets all people free and gives them life.

Verse 18 isn't talking of ruling in life with Christ; it's speaking of ALL being set free and given life.

 

[bling]

deserving hell is God's justice for everyone.

You said in post 150: “no i dont believe every unborn child is deserving of hell”, but now you say in post 159: “…deserving hell is God's justice for everyone.” So does “everyone” include every unborn child?

I am just trying to get clarity.

 

[Geralt]

lets remove the grace of God from the equation.

lets get an example in scripture, spotlight on the 1st born sons of egypt in Moses time prior to exodus, spotlight on the babies. all of them killed by the angel of death. did God have the right ? was it injustice on God's part ? was He unfair ?

you don't really have to ask my opinion on this matter.

You said in post 150: “no i dont believe every unborn child is deserving of hell”, but now you say in post 159: “…deserving hell is God's justice for everyone.” So does “everyone” include every unborn child?

I am just trying to get clarity.

 

[bling]

lets remove the grace of God from the equation.

lets get an example in scripture, spotlight on the 1st born sons of egypt in Moses time prior to exodus, spotlight on the babies. all of them killed by the angel of death. did God have the right ? was it injustice on God's part ? was He unfair ?

you don't really have to ask my opinion on this matter.

I am asking for your understanding of scripture.

Children die all the time. Is death in and of itself “bad”?

Sending new born and unborn babies to hell is unfair and unjust, but God taking their life away is not unjust or unfair.