Real time or evo time?

[dad]

But you're making claims too --.

Scripture is scripture and science requires other sorts of evidence for it's claims. The issue is not that God says how it was, but that little man makes so called science claims that are darkly opposed to His truth, so they need to show the support for them. The state of the past they use religiously must be first shown to have existed.

 

[dad]

See? Just as I predicted, you rejected all the evidence. Well, you can just sit over there in your corner and continue to utter words that will be ignored.

I neither rejected any evidence nor did you post any.

 

[RealityCheck01]

Your claims about time existing exactly the same in deep space are empty flights of fancy....

Fantasies do not make the real universe act as you want it to, dad.
27 July 2016 dad: An assertion that parallax is invalidated by fantasies about spacetime is not evidence that parallax does not work.

20 September 2016 dad: The delusion again that parallax involves a T that is time in the far universe.
Parallax is basic geometry using distance measurements from here in the Solar System !
Parallax is a low rung on the cosmic distance ladder useful for stars relatively close to us - not outside of the Milky Way and definitely not out to the "far universe"!


A basic question about physics.
20 September 2016 dad: Do you agree that if time goes faster then all speeds increase? This includes the speed of light.
This is an easily understood consequence of the definition of speed.

I do not really expect an answer because we have:
A long (34 items) list of denied science, unanswered questions, fantasies, delusion, etc. started on 4 August 2016 for dad.

 

[RealityCheck01]

Oh? ...

20 September 2016 dad: An ignorant "So how much has it increased in the years since science existed" question.
As I wrote, you quoted and replied to: Metallicity does not change measurably decrease until we get to ~10 billion light years. So time has ticked away as we expected for those 10 billion years.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

I neither rejected any evidence nor did you post any.

Have you considered running for president?

 

[RealityCheck01]

We have covered the following rungs on the cosmic distance ladder:

1. Parallax (a concept that children can understand)
2. Parallax applied to clusters of stars
3. Secular Parallax
4. Statistical Parallax
5. Kinematic Distance
6. Expansion Parallax
7. Light Echo Distance
8. Spectroscopic Visual Binaries
9. Cepheid variables (high school level science)
10. Type 1a supernova (first year astronomy students)

This is the real world, not A long (34 items) list of denied science, unanswered questions, fantasies, delusion, etc. started on 4 August 2016 for dad.

The ABC's of Distances

Expanding Photosphere Method
The Baade-Wesselink method can be applied to an expanding star: the variations in radius do not have to be periodic. It has been applied to Type II supernovae, which are massive stars with a hydrogen rich envelope that explode when their cores collapse to from neutron stars. It can also be applied to Type Ia supernovae, but these objects have no hydrogen lines in their spectra. Since the surface brightness vs color law is calibrated using normal, hydrogen-rich stars, the EPM is normally used on hydrogen-rich supernovae, which are Type II. The Type II SN1987A in the Large Magellanic Cloud has been used to calibrate this distance indicator. The following methods use the H-R diagram of stars, which gives the luminosity as a function of temperature. When the luminosity and flux of an object are known, the distance can be found using
D = sqrt[L/(4*pi*F)]

Main Sequence Fitting
When distances to nearby stars were found using trigonometric parallaxes in the late 19th and early 20th century, it became possible to study the luminosities of stars. Einar Hertzsprung and Henry Norris Russell both plotted stars on a chart of luminosity and temperature. Most stars fall on a single track, known as the Main Sequence, in this diagram, which is now known as the H-R diagram after Hertzsprung and Russell. Often the absolute magnitude is used instead of the luminosity, and the spectral type or color is used instead of the temperature.

When looking at a cluster of stars, the apparent magnitudes and colors of the stars form a track that is parallel to the Main Sequence, and by correctly choosing the distance, the apparent magnitudes convert to absolute magnitudes that fall on the standard Main Sequence.

Spectroscopic Parallax
When the spectrum of a star is observed carefully, it is possible to determine two parameters of the star as well as the chemical abundances in the star's atmosphere. The first of these two parameters is the surface temperature of the star, which determines the spectral type in the range OBAFGKM from hottest to coolest. The hot O stars show ionized helium lines, the B stars show neutral helium lines, the A stars have strong hydrogen lines, the F and G stars have various metal lines, and the coolest K and M stars have molecular bands. The spectral classes are further subdivided with a digit, so the Sun is a G2 star.

The second parameter that can be determined is the surface gravity of the star. The higher the surface gravity, the higher the pressure in the atmosphere, and high pressure leads to line broadening and also reduces the amount of ionization in the atmosphere. The surface gravity is denoted by the luminosity class denoted by a Roman numeral from I to V with I being the lowest gravity and V being the highest (except for class VI which is sometimes seen and for white dwarfs which are separately classified.) Stars with high surface gravity (class V) are called dwarfs while stars with medium gravity (class III) are called giants and stars with low gravity (class I) are called supergiants. The use of surface gravity to determine the luminosity of a star depends on three relations:
L = 4*pi*sigma*T4*R2
L = A*Mb Mass-luminosity law with b = 3-4
g = G*M/R2

Given the temperature from the spectral type, and the surface gravity from the luminosity class, these equations can be used to find the mass and luminosity. If the luminosity and flux are known the distance follows from the inverse square law.

One warning about this method: it only works for normal stars, and any given single object might not be normal. Main sequence fitting in a cluster is much more reliable since with a large number of stars it is easy to find the normal ones.

 

[TLK Valentine]

The state of the past they use religiously must be first shown to have existed.

Then tell me it doesn't. Tell me that the Moon is in a different state than it was in the past, and that will be that.

 

[dad]

Fantasies do not make the real universe act as you want it to, dad.

27 July 2016 dad: An assertion that parallax is invalidated by fantasies about spacetime is not evidence that parallax does not work.

20 September 2016 dad: The delusion again that parallax involves a T that is time in the far universe.
Parallax is basic geometry using distance measurements from here in the Solar System !
Parallax is a low rung on the cosmic distance ladder useful for stars relatively close to us - not outside of the Milky Way and definitely not out to the "far universe"!

The fact is that time exists here, I doubt you would argue that. Space and time here are where we take a base line for the triangular measure to a star. That measure could only be good as long as time and space and time together exist exactly the same as here. How far that may be you do not know, you assume. That is of no value.

A basic question about physics.
20 September 2016 dad: Do you agree that if time goes faster then all speeds increase?

Goes faster??? Explain? What I asked is whether time existed at all, or if it existed as we know it here in relation to space.

This includes the speed of light.
This is an easily understood consequence of the definition of speed.

No. Light has no speed per time unit unless time exists. Here on earth we know what time and space are like and how light behaves here. You only assume anything further.

 

[dad]

Then tell me it doesn't. Tell me that the Moon is in a different state than it was in the past, and that will be that.

I would like you to adrress the issues reasonably. I am not interested in last thursdayist ideas. The issue at hand is what state existed long before science existed, specifically about 4500 years ago. Anything less, like your scotch glass, or last thursday, does not deserve a reply.

 

[dad]

We have covered the following rungs on the cosmic distance ladder:

1. Parallax (a concept that children can understand)

Science doesn't even know what time is, let alone what it is in the far universe. A child would get that much, you apparently don't.

 

[dad]

Have you considered running for president?

I have considered running from president.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I would like you to adrress the issues reasonably. I am not interested in last thursdayist ideas. The issue at hand is what state existed long before science existed, specifically about 4500 years ago. Anything less, like your scotch glass, or last thursday, does not deserve a reply.

You're saying that there was no such thing as "science" 4500 years ago, and that the past has been in the exact same state only since that point?

 

[AV1611VET]

Tell me that the Moon is in a different state than it was in the past, and that will be that.

The moon, prior to the rebellion of Lucifer and his angels, would have been created pristine; that is, no impact craters or any other type of scarring.

 

[RealityCheck01]

Science doesn't even know what time is, ...

20 September 2016 dad: A lie that science does not know what time is.
Time

Time is the indefinite continued progress of existence and events that occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future.[1][2][3] Time is a component quantity of various measurements used to sequence events, to compare the duration of events or the intervals between them, and to quantify rates of change of quantities in material reality or in the conscious experience.[4][5][6][7] Time is often referred to as the fourth dimension, along with the three spatial dimensions.[8]
...
Time in physics is unambiguously operationally defined as "what a clock reads."[6][17][20] Time is one of the seven fundamental physical quantities in both the International System of Units and International System of Quantities. Time is used to define other quantities—such as velocity—so defining time in terms of such quantities would result in circularity of definition.[21] An operational definition of time, wherein one says that observing a certain number of repetitions of one or another standard cyclical event (such as the passage of a free-swinging pendulum) constitutes one standard unit such as the second, is highly useful in the conduct of both advanced experiments and everyday affairs of life. The operational definition leaves aside the question whether there is something called time, apart from the counting activity just mentioned, that flows and that can be measured. Investigations of a single continuum called spacetime bring questions about space into questions about time, questions that have their roots in the works of early students of natural philosophy.

 

[RealityCheck01]

The fact is that time exists here, ...

A non-answer and fantasies so a basic question about physics.

• 20 September 2016 dad: Do you agree that if time goes faster then all speeds increase?
  No answer in his reply implying ignorance about what speed is.

will be added to
A long (35 items) list of denied science, unanswered questions, fantasies, delusion, etc. started on 4 August 2016 for dad.

 

[RealityCheck01]

... let alone what it is in the far universe.

20 September 2016 dad: A lie that science does not know what time is in the far universe because as has been pointed out before stars in the far universe act like stars in the near universe.

If the rate of time changes (dad shows no sign of knowing what the change is!) then speed changes. That means that the speed of light, c, changes. c is involved in the physics of stars via E=mc^2 which determines how much energy fusion releases in stars to balance the pressure of gravity. Change c too much and stars cannot form .

Another example is the Type 1a supernova have light curves with the same average duration adjusted for time dilation for their host galaxy velocity. Alternately ignore SR and the change in the rate time is not the enormous amount dad wants: a supernova that takes 20 days to decay will appear to take 40 days to decay when observed at redshift z=1 (just short of 11 billion light years away).

This is the error that some young earth creationists make with a bad attempt at "science" with time was faster in the past so that they can squeeze the at least 4.6 billon years age of the Earth into 6000 years (or 10,000 years depending on the variety of YEC). Or explain how we see light travelling at c from stars over 6000 light years away (more than 6000 years old). This has been refuted by other creationists such as Russell Humphreys whose ideas have in turn been challenged by other creationists.
See Creationist cosmologies

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

The moon, prior to the rebellion of Lucifer and his angels, would have been created pristine; that is, no impact craters or any other type of scarring.

I'm kind of curious as to why you think the moon had ANYTHING to do with Lucifer and his angels, or why you consider the mountains and craters of the moon as the result of angelic struggles.

Also, why do you think the moon isn't pristine right now? (that is, aside from human littering and exploring)

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm kind of curious as to why you think the moon had ANYTHING to do with Lucifer and his angels,

When Lucifer and one third of the angels rebelled, there was a cosmic battle that occurred, in which a lot of God's creation was ruined.

The universe bears these marks.

... or why you consider the mountains and craters of the moon as the result of angelic struggles.

What else could they be?

Even your precious science says they are meteor strikes and whatnot -- and I agree.

Also, why do you think the moon isn't pristine right now? (that is, aside from human littering and exploring)

Well, it's certainly high on my list of aesthetic objects in the universe, but in actuality the moon, the Grand Canyon, and other astronomical and geological phenomena attest to God's awful judgment on the universality of sin.

 

[TLK Valentine]

The moon, prior to the rebellion of Lucifer and his angels, would have been created pristine; that is, no impact craters or any other type of scarring.

Well, that's all well and nice, but the timeline seems a little skewed -- wouldn't Lucifer & co. have rebelled before the Moon was created?

 

[AV1611VET]

Well, that's all well and nice, but the timeline seems a little skewed -- wouldn't Lucifer & co. have rebelled before the Moon was created?

I doubt it.

Ezekiel 28:13a Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;