Archie the Preacher
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Which Church is THE Church?
- Thread starter Thursday
- Start date
Razare
God gave me a throne
Oh and if you want to be part of THE CHURCH. (something I was teaching against...) But if you did want to belong to an institution of men, it's buildings, ect.
I was doing some historical research about the Council of Ephesus. When the church split at the Council of Ephesus, the main branches which became Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, were in doctrinal error.
The true "church" (there is no such thing) is something few people have ever even heard of.
The Assyrian Church was correct, everyone else was wrong.
Now, I am even getting to learn how some parts of our Bible, or perhaps all of the NT was actually authored in Assyrian language, by Paul and others, since this was the native language of Jews from that region. The Assyrian Church (the ones who were in the right on the first church split)... that these guys say, the Bible was originally authored in Assyrian not Greek. And today, history agrees with these guys if you ignore the biased church history that arose from Catholicism and all the sects of everything else.
See here, that the official language of Jews prior to and during the time of Christ was the Assyrian language... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasmonean_dynasty
Aramaic Primacy: http://www.peshitta.org/initial/peshitta.html
I might personally be willing to believe that perhaps Romans or some other epistles were penned in Greek by Paul. Paul as a courtesy might author it in Greek because he was writing directly to Rome. ... But these Jews who wrote the NT spoke and lived with Aramaic as their daily language.
That they're going to fuss making sure their letters and gospels were all uniformly written in Kione Greek is a huge stretch beyond what any reasonable person would conclude.
But anyway, this Assyrian church has Catholicism beat on the first church schism, and they may even be right about the original language of scripture, and the Catholics were deceived.
I was doing some historical research about the Council of Ephesus. When the church split at the Council of Ephesus, the main branches which became Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, were in doctrinal error.
The true "church" (there is no such thing) is something few people have ever even heard of.
The Assyrian Church was correct, everyone else was wrong.
Now, I am even getting to learn how some parts of our Bible, or perhaps all of the NT was actually authored in Assyrian language, by Paul and others, since this was the native language of Jews from that region. The Assyrian Church (the ones who were in the right on the first church split)... that these guys say, the Bible was originally authored in Assyrian not Greek. And today, history agrees with these guys if you ignore the biased church history that arose from Catholicism and all the sects of everything else.
See here, that the official language of Jews prior to and during the time of Christ was the Assyrian language... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasmonean_dynasty
Aramaic Primacy: http://www.peshitta.org/initial/peshitta.html
I might personally be willing to believe that perhaps Romans or some other epistles were penned in Greek by Paul. Paul as a courtesy might author it in Greek because he was writing directly to Rome. ... But these Jews who wrote the NT spoke and lived with Aramaic as their daily language.
That they're going to fuss making sure their letters and gospels were all uniformly written in Kione Greek is a huge stretch beyond what any reasonable person would conclude.
But anyway, this Assyrian church has Catholicism beat on the first church schism, and they may even be right about the original language of scripture, and the Catholics were deceived.
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Aramaic point of order: The Peshitta is written in 5th century Classical Syriac (an Eastern Aramaic language). Jesus, on the other hand, spoke 1st century Galilean Aramaic (a Western Aramaic language, which is quite distinct). Even contemporary 1st century Old Syriac was virtually non-existant in the area around Judea. As a result, it'd be quite difficult for the New Testament to have originally be penned in the 5th century.
Additionally, the only contemporary Assyrian/Syriac dialect was Old Syriac (which was also quite distinct from Classical Syriac) which was only spoken 400+ miles to the north of Jerusalem in the kingdom of Osroene. It was virtually unheard of where Jesus lived and taught, and the only Old Syriac inscription we have extant from the 1st century near Jerusalem is the Tomb of Queen Helena – and because it couldn't be read, it was re-inscribed in Galilean Aramaic so that locals could make sense of it.
I have articulated these problems, as well as a picture of Queen Helena's tomb, here.
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Razare
God gave me a throne
Aramaic point of order: The Peshitta is written in 5th century Classical Syriac (an Eastern Aramaic language). Jesus, on the other hand, spoke 1st century Galilean Aramaic (a Western Aramaic language, which is quite distinct). Even contemporary 1st century Old Syriac was virtually non-existant in the area around Judea. As a result, it'd be quite difficult for the New Testament to have originally be penned in the 5th century.
Additionally, the only contemporary Assyrian/Syriac dialect was Old Syriac (which was also quite distinct from Classical Syriac) which was only spoken 400+ miles to the north of Jerusalem in the kingdom of Osroene. It was virtually unheard of where Jesus lived and taught, and the only Old Syriac inscription we have extant from the 1st century near Jerusalem is the Tomb of Queen Helena – and because it couldn't be read, it was re-inscribed in Galilean Aramaic so that locals could make sense of it.
I have articulated these problems, as well as a picture of Queen Helena's tomb, here.
Oh great, thanks for the info! So if it was written in Aramaic of that age, there would be no known original copy because it is a different language we see in the Peshitta?
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~Anastasia~
† Handmaid of God †
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THE Church = all believers; all who are born again, are IN Christ and who belong to him.
Paul says that anyone who has the Holy Spirit is assured that they are children of God, Romans 8:16-17, and that this Spirit is a deposit, guaranteeing our inheritance, 2 Corinthians 5:5. Do you think it's possible for someone to be an heir of God, and co-heir with Christ, and yet not be accepted by him?
Because you are Catholic, you have tailored all your questions, and answers, so that the only possible conclusion is that the Catholic church is the true one.
But we could equally ask;
Q Would the true church be led by the Spirit?
A Yes
Q Would the true church, led by the Spirit of truth, teach what is not in the Bible?
A No
Q Is ................. (insert Catholic teaching or doctrine) in the Bible?
A No
Q So is the Catholic church the true church?
See what I mean? You can structure questions to arrive at a predetermined conclusion. It proves nothing.
THE Church is all believers.
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Well, well.
The "ekklesia" is the body of Jesus.
Is the today church the body of Jesus? May be not.
Why?
Jesus words to John, the beloved disciple:
Revelation 3:14-22
The church (Ekklesia?) at Laodicea.
Jesus does not like that church. He will spue it out of His mouth.
Why?
That church does not feel good to the sense of taste: lukewarm.
Is not in their heart.
What?
Commitment. Neither hot or cold.
Jesus said:
A wretched church,
A miserable church,
A poor church (spirit),
A blind church, and
A naked church.
Not very comfortable qualities.
And He gives advise:
Buy of me gold tried in the fire,
Buy of me white rainment, and
Buy of me eye salve.
And why do you have to buy those things from Jesus?
Gold: to be rich
White rainments: to cover the shame of your nakedness
Eye salve: so you can see.
Also He knocks at the door.
ARE YOU GOING TO OPEN IT?
The "ekklesia" is the body of Jesus.
Is the today church the body of Jesus? May be not.
Why?
Jesus words to John, the beloved disciple:
Revelation 3:14-22
The church (Ekklesia?) at Laodicea.
Jesus does not like that church. He will spue it out of His mouth.
Why?
That church does not feel good to the sense of taste: lukewarm.
Is not in their heart.
What?
Commitment. Neither hot or cold.
Jesus said:
A wretched church,
A miserable church,
A poor church (spirit),
A blind church, and
A naked church.
Not very comfortable qualities.
And He gives advise:
Buy of me gold tried in the fire,
Buy of me white rainment, and
Buy of me eye salve.
And why do you have to buy those things from Jesus?
Gold: to be rich
White rainments: to cover the shame of your nakedness
Eye salve: so you can see.
Also He knocks at the door.
ARE YOU GOING TO OPEN IT?
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Obviously you don't know your Bible very well. The word "qahal" (Hebrew) or "elessia" has a distinct meaning which was accepted for 1500 years until the Protestant Rebellion.
Both words describe the same thing....congregation or gathering. When one speaks of a gathering, this means that the so-called "invisible Church," which was an invention of the Protestant Rebels, can not be in mind, for it is impossible to gather an invisible Church. When God established the Church, He did so under the principles of a covenant group. If you know covenant and biblical principles of covenant, you should know that a covenant group has a covenant head. In the case of the family, it is the husband/father. In the case of a parish, it is the priest. In the case of the Church on earth, it is the Holy Father.
There is no such thing as the "invisible Church" because there is no way to have a covenant head over this group. There is no specific meeting place for the "invisible Church." Whenever the Bible speaks of Church on earth, it refers to a specific group of people, with a visible place of meeting, a particular hierarchy of authority, and a form of worship which was first given by God and continues to this day.
The Protestant "invisible Church" meets none of these criteria, therefore, it is impossible.
But more that that, the OP is trying to get you to consider that prior to 1517 and Luther, there was no such thing as multiple organizations all trying to claim that they are the Church. You appear to have missed that. As the OP suggests, tell us where is the evidence in the first century for your assembly's existence and the doctrines to which you adhere?
I'll be waiting.....
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Have you read Revelation 18?
The question is rather "Have YOU read Revelation 18 correctly? Do you have the correct interpretation?" It appears not.
Question:
Will Jesus'Father send His church (ekklessia) to the lake of fire for eternity?
Apparently you don't know how to do Bible study, either in Greek or English. Here's the verse:
Rev 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
It is not talking about an eklessia here. It is talking about a city (polis in Greek). This is a description of the destruction of a certain wicked city which was to come in the future. Here's a clue for you regarding what city this might be:
Rev 18:20
Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Oh, really? God has avenged the apostles and prophets. Do we find similar language from Jesus elsewhere? You bet we do!!!
Rev 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Mat 23:35
That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36
Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Uh huh....Jerusalem. That great city, the capital of Judaism, which was destroyed for her persecution and killing of the Apostles and prophets.
Question: Which church has his people dressed in purple and scarlet?
Answer: The Catholic church.
No. Wrong again. There are numerous liturgical vestments, including blue, green, and gold. You really need to stop reading those stupid little Chick tracts you are so fond of. Read the rest of the description also. It is not wise to pull parts of verses out of context to try to make a point.
Question: Is there a warning in the book of Revelation 18:4?
Answer: Yes and it says: "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
This warning was heeded by the Christians of the first century when the Roman armies of Titus surrounded Jerusalem in AD 67. When Titus pulled his armies back from the walls, the Christians remembered what had been said about the destruction of the city and the warnings given and fled to Pella in the dark of the night, thus saving their lives and not partaking of the avenging of God upon Jerusalem.
The question is rather "Have YOU read Revelation 18 correctly? Do you have the correct interpretation?" It appears not.
Question:
Will Jesus'Father send His church (ekklessia) to the lake of fire for eternity?
Apparently you don't know how to do Bible study, either in Greek or English. Here's the verse:
Rev 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
It is not talking about an eklessia here. It is talking about a city (polis in Greek). This is a description of the destruction of a certain wicked city which was to come in the future. Here's a clue for you regarding what city this might be:
Rev 18:20
Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Oh, really? God has avenged the apostles and prophets. Do we find similar language from Jesus elsewhere? You bet we do!!!
Rev 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
Mat 23:35
That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36
Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Uh huh....Jerusalem. That great city, the capital of Judaism, which was destroyed for her persecution and killing of the Apostles and prophets.
Question: Which church has his people dressed in purple and scarlet?
Answer: The Catholic church.
No. Wrong again. There are numerous liturgical vestments, including blue, green, and gold. You really need to stop reading those stupid little Chick tracts you are so fond of. Read the rest of the description also. It is not wise to pull parts of verses out of context to try to make a point.
Question: Is there a warning in the book of Revelation 18:4?
Answer: Yes and it says: "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
This warning was heeded by the Christians of the first century when the Roman armies of Titus surrounded Jerusalem in AD 67. When Titus pulled his armies back from the walls, the Christians remembered what had been said about the destruction of the city and the warnings given and fled to Pella in the dark of the night, thus saving their lives and not partaking of the avenging of God upon Jerusalem.
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Albion
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Yes. And the Bible is quite clear about that.
Of course, there are also several other uses of the word church, and this is what accounts for the many attempts of people to argue that Christ founded a club rather than a cause.
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Yes, it's already well on it's way to being disruptive here. Hopefully we can get that taken care of soon.
Truth is always disruptive to those who wish to live in fantasy.
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jeager016
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I've mentioned this before but it might bear repeating.
There are at least 33,000 denominations of Christians
each believing they have the Christian Bible nailed down
just right.
Westboro Baptists hate group?
Pass around a basket of rattlesnakes to "demonstrate" your
faith?
Get bitten by a rattlesnake and refuse medical treatment?
After all if your faith is pure you won't die!
Yet a fundamentalist snake handling preacher got bitten,
refused medical help, and died a long agonizing death.
The Churches excuse for the pastors death?
"God" needed him in heaven because he demonstrated
great faith.
Anyone see a faithful person or a stupid person who
dared put his "god" to the test?
The God I believe in wants no one to risk a precious life
in the pursuit of stupidity.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/snake-handling-christians-faith-prophecy-and-obedience-75985/
More like this^^^ on the web if you care to read.
If I'm in a church and a basket of rattlesnakes is produced
I'm outta there pronto.
Blind obedience? Jim Jones perhaps.
"Drink the purple kool-aid and I'll see ya in heaven."
And they DID!
David Koresh? "Lets all burn to death and go to heaven."
And they did !
Faith or Satan at work?
One wonders? What would Jesus say if he witnessed those
abominations of Christian faith?
If there is a literal "hell" there must be a special place
for the likes of those that lead people into depraved deception.
Do the Westboro people believe Jesus/God approves of
"God hates [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]"?
I am so straight I could be a poster person for straight people.
I do NOT judge gay people. Judgement is God's job.
( I don't condone homosexual behavior either.)
So which church is THE Church?
None of them.
No church that I know of has "it" (scripture) nailed down just right.
The Jehovah's Witnesses are so convinced that "we are right" they
wrote their own bible.
Nothing wrong with that and I know many J.W.'s and all
I know are fine, upstanding, law abiding, people.
The New World Translation is a pretty good Bible.
That^^^ is arguable just like everything about religion is
arguable. Were biblical matters not arguable this site would
not exist.
I love argument in the scientific sense and I learn a lot about
religion, politics, and society, from this site.
Opinions without citations are just opinions.
There are at least 33,000 denominations of Christians
each believing they have the Christian Bible nailed down
just right.
Westboro Baptists hate group?
Pass around a basket of rattlesnakes to "demonstrate" your
faith?
Get bitten by a rattlesnake and refuse medical treatment?
After all if your faith is pure you won't die!
Yet a fundamentalist snake handling preacher got bitten,
refused medical help, and died a long agonizing death.
The Churches excuse for the pastors death?
"God" needed him in heaven because he demonstrated
great faith.
Anyone see a faithful person or a stupid person who
dared put his "god" to the test?
The God I believe in wants no one to risk a precious life
in the pursuit of stupidity.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/snake-handling-christians-faith-prophecy-and-obedience-75985/
More like this^^^ on the web if you care to read.
If I'm in a church and a basket of rattlesnakes is produced
I'm outta there pronto.
Blind obedience? Jim Jones perhaps.
"Drink the purple kool-aid and I'll see ya in heaven."
And they DID!
David Koresh? "Lets all burn to death and go to heaven."
And they did !
Faith or Satan at work?
One wonders? What would Jesus say if he witnessed those
abominations of Christian faith?
If there is a literal "hell" there must be a special place
for the likes of those that lead people into depraved deception.
Do the Westboro people believe Jesus/God approves of
"God hates [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]"?
I am so straight I could be a poster person for straight people.
I do NOT judge gay people. Judgement is God's job.
( I don't condone homosexual behavior either.)
So which church is THE Church?
None of them.
No church that I know of has "it" (scripture) nailed down just right.
The Jehovah's Witnesses are so convinced that "we are right" they
wrote their own bible.
Nothing wrong with that and I know many J.W.'s and all
I know are fine, upstanding, law abiding, people.
The New World Translation is a pretty good Bible.
That^^^ is arguable just like everything about religion is
arguable. Were biblical matters not arguable this site would
not exist.
I love argument in the scientific sense and I learn a lot about
religion, politics, and society, from this site.
Opinions without citations are just opinions.
Upvote
0
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You have no concept of history. Please read some good Christian history.
The Church (congregation) of God was started in the desert with Moses. God called a congregation (qahal or "church") to Himself and gave them the ordinances of worship. When that congregation, to whom the Kingdom of God had been entrusted, turned on Him and murdered Him the Flesh, the Kingdom was taken from them and given to "another nation bringing forth fruits in due season" (Matthew 21: 33-46).
That "new nation" was the Gentile/Jew congregation of believers which came to be called "katholicos" (universal or "of the whole") in the early second century. Your claim that the Church which is called "katholicos" started four centuries after Christ is ridiculous and anti-historical.
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cult
kəlt/
noun
a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
"the cult of St. Olaf"
a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.
"a network of Satan-worshiping cults"
synonyms:sect, denomination, group, movement, church, persuasion, body, faction
"a religious cult"
a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing.
"a cult of personality surrounding the leaders"
synonyms:obsession with, fixation on, mania for, passion for, idolization of, devotion to, worship of, veneration of
"the cult of eternal youth in Hollywood"
Seems some don't understand the meaning of that word....I posted it JIC........
kəlt/
noun
a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
"the cult of St. Olaf"
a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.
"a network of Satan-worshiping cults"
synonyms:sect, denomination, group, movement, church, persuasion, body, faction
"a religious cult"
a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing.
"a cult of personality surrounding the leaders"
synonyms:obsession with, fixation on, mania for, passion for, idolization of, devotion to, worship of, veneration of
"the cult of eternal youth in Hollywood"
Seems some don't understand the meaning of that word....I posted it JIC........
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FaithfulPilgrim
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Agreed.
It's funny how many churches claim to be the true church or the only true Christians and someone later founds another sect that claims to be the true church.
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