LDS "There are save two churches only..."

[Rescued One]

This is not a response to my post. Again,

If the rescue administered without that person's consent (which is an action), then yes that person was forced.

How did I know you would ignore Ephesians 2? I knew because it contradicts Mormonism.

God quickens the ungodly person --- he doesn't need an ungodly person's consent. Ungodly people commit ungodly acts and don't understand spiritual things. Their deeds are evil so they hate the Light.

 

[Jane_Doe]

The vast majority of rescues are without consent due to the victim's being incapacitated and unable to rationally consent to or reject the rescue.

Irrelevant for the analogy.

 

[Jane_Doe]

God quickens the ungodly person --- he doesn't need an ungodly person's consent.

What you describe here is a tyrant.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Irrelevant for the analogy.

How so?

 

[Jane_Doe]

How so?

Because the analogy is being applied to conscious people.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Seems to me this is exactly what Phoebe is purposing, she keeps posting quotes from Mormon leaders which say 'you must be obedient to God's commandments in order to be saved' with the idea that there is something unchristian about that idea.

She's right - that idea is most unchristian. In fact, it's diametrically opposed to Christianity. It's not Biblical and in fact the Bible makes it clear that salvation is by faith and NOT of works and that it is impossible to be saved through obedience to the Law.

Romans 7:6 “But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. (Gal. 3:11-12).

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Because the analogy is being applied to conscious people.

The ungodly are not spiritually conscious - they are spiritually "dead".

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. (NASB) Ephesians 2:1-3

 

[ArmenianJohn]

What you describe here is a tyrant.

So someone who sees an unconscious person lying on the ground having a heart attack and administers CPR and defibrillator without the person's consent would also be a "tyrant", imposing his will on an unconsenting victim?

 

[Jane_Doe]

So someone who sees an unconscious person lying on the ground having a heart attack and administers CPR and defibrillator without the person's consent would also be a "tyrant", imposing his will on an unconsenting victim?

People are conscious!

 

[ArmenianJohn]

People are conscious!

Spiritually? The Bible says people are spiritually dead unless they're saved.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Spiritually? The Bible says people are spiritually dead unless they're saved.

You're mixing up analogies. Yes, they are spiritual dead (aka separated from God) until the reunited with God (that's analogy 1). But even separated from God, the person is still conscious- aka capable of making choices. Do you deny this?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

You're mixing up analogies. Yes, they are spiritual dead (aka separated from God) until the reunited with God (that's analogy 1). But even separated from God, the person is still conscious- aka capable of making choices. Do you deny this?

You're the one mixing the analogies. We are talking about people spiritually and comparing it to people physically.

The physical scenario is a person who is physically incapacitated and needs to be rescued. For example, someone is having a heart attack. The rescuer can't ask for consent because the victim is unable to give consent or reject the rescue. The rescuer does what he or she knows believes in the best interest of the victim.

The spiritual analogy is that you have a person who is spiritually incapacitated and God performs a rescue because He knows it's in that person's best interest. A spiritually dead person is a spiritually unconscious person.

 

[Jane_Doe]

The spiritual analogy is that you have a person who is spiritually incapacitated and God performs a rescue because He knows it's in that person's best interest. A spiritually dead person is a spiritually unconscious person.

And then you believe that the person has no choice but to accept God's help? No chance for rejection?

Why would such a forceful being be worthy of admiration, let alone worship? (I'm trying to say this in an unoffensive way... and feel that I am failing in that regard. My apologies).

 

[Jane_Doe]

I have a story for you guys---

When I was very young, I endured horrible abuse by an authority figure in my life- something I had zero choice in. By elementary school I was in the grips of suicidal depression. I came to Christ at the age of 6, accepting Him as my Savior, Brother, and the only person who understood what I was going through.

He was my Savior, who held out His hand to lift me from the darkness. But I had to take His hand- to accept His healing. He was the one who did the lift, but I had to want it. I had to want to leave the darkness—and when that’s all you’ve known, it’s a terrifying prospect. He gave me courage to develop that want, and attain it.

Again, I had to accept His help. He wasn’t going to force my choice- I always had the option to stay in the dark… and at points I did retreat back to that refuge. But He never grew impatient, never forced, and always allowed me my choice. He just patiently outstretched His hand, offer always extended—because He is a God of Infinite Love.

I don’t know your particular theological views that well, admittedly. But I do not identify with a deity which forces in any way. My God is a God of choice and of Love.

 

[Rescued One]

I have a story for you guys---

When I was very young, I endured horrible abuse by an authority figure in my life- something I had zero choice in. By elementary school I was in the grips of suicidal depression. I came to Christ at the age of 6, accepting Him as my Savior, Brother, and the only person who understood what I was going through.

He was my Savior, who held out His hand to lift me from the darkness. But I had to take His hand- to accept His healing. He was the one who did the lift, but I had to want it. I had to want to leave the darkness—and when that’s all you’ve known, it’s a terrifying prospect. He gave me courage to develop that want, and attain it.

Again, I had to accept His help. He wasn’t going to force my choice- I always had the option to stay in the dark… and at points I did retreat back to that refuge. But He never grew impatient, never forced, and always allowed me my choice. He just patiently outstretched His hand, offer always extended—because He is a God of Infinite Love.

I don’t know your particular theological views that well, admittedly. But my God is not the being of force that you describe and I have no interest in any being which forces. My God is a God of choice and of Love.

I'm sorry you were abused. I'm also sorry that you don't understand what we've told you. When someone does you a kindness such as saving your life, you don't turn around and feel anger towards that person for not asking you first if you want to be saved. If a gas stove was about to explode, but your father grabbed you and ran from of the house, would you be angry at him for the rest of your life? You are deceived to hate the God whose choices are far better than those of any human being. Apparently you'd rather think you can make right choices and think that He is forced to reward you with the blessings you've earned. Apparently you think that your will is better than His. My God never held a gun to my head. He planned and orchestrated my salvation and He teaches me through the Holy Spirit and His word --- the Bible.

We share His word with you and you reject it just as millions of others do.

Romans 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

A God of love shows mercy. Your God can't show mercy because you have to EARN every blessing, If the blessing had to be earned there was no mercy shown. Your God is bound when you obey --- you are forcing him to grant you the reward you earned. We don't force our God to do anything. I didn't describe a God of force. I described a God of love and mercy Who is sovereign. I can't push Him around nor do I want to. The heaven I'm going to has no divisions. The sheep will all be in the Presence of the One True God for eternity.

 

[Rescued One]

And then you believe that the person has no choice but to accept God's help? No chance for rejection?

Why would such a forceful being be worthy of admiration, let alone worship? (I'm trying to say this in an unoffensive way... and feel that I am failing in that regard. My apologies).

If I loved someone, I would protect that person from harm; I wouldn't wait for him to reject my help. When my sister and I were young, a bully decided to pelt her with grapefruit. I saw what his intent was and ran between him and her. But she didn't want me to get hurt, so she pulled me away. Neither one of us gave the other person a choice.

 

[Ironhold]

No one who is ungodly will consent to follow Christ unless God quickens him.

...or he's kidnapped by people who have been hired to torture him until he's so mentally and emotionally broken that he'll agree to abandon the so-called "cult" he's in and embrace the clearly even more cult-like "Good Christian" religion of the person who hired the kidnappers in the first place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deprogramming

Yeah; deprogramming is a thing. Secular and non-mainline Christian deprogrammers exist (especially in places like Japan), but by and large the movement consists of mainline Christians.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I'm sorry you were abused. I'm also sorry that you don't understand what we've told you. When someone does you a kindness such as saving your life, you don't turn around and feel anger towards that person for not asking you first if you want to be saved. If a gas stove was about to explode, but your father grabbed you and ran from of the house, would you be angry at him for the rest of your life? You are deceived to hate the God whose choices are far better than those of any human being. Apparently you'd rather think you can make right choices and think that He is forced to reward you with the blessings you've earned. Apparently you think that your will is better than His. My God never held a gun to my head. He planned and orchestrated my salvation and He teaches me through the Holy Spirit and His word --- the Bible.

Any being who robs another of choice-- ANY choice-- is a despicable monster. Any yes, that includes stupid choices, bad choices, choices that result in misery and to hurt, choices that refuse salvation. The being you describe-- one that forces salvation on people-- is an unworthy tyrant.

Your God can't show mercy because you have to EARN every blessing, .

No, no, no. That's not how it works. You do not understand my beliefs at all.

 

[Rescued One]

Any being who robs another of choice-- ANY choice-- is a despicable monster. Any yes, that includes stupid choices, bad choices, choices that result in misery and to hurt, choices that refuse salvation. The being you describe-- one that forces salvation on people-- is an unworthy tyrant.
No, no, no. That's not how it works. You do not understand my beliefs at all.

Very, very Mormon mindset.

 

[Rescued One]

...or he's kidnapped by people who have been hired to torture him until he's so mentally and emotionally broken that he'll agree to abandon the so-called "cult" he's in and embrace the clearly even more cult-like "Good Christian" religion of the person who hired the kidnappers in the first place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deprogramming

Yeah; deprogramming is a thing. Secular and non-mainline Christian deprogrammers exist (especially in places like Japan), but by and large the movement consists of mainline Christians.

Kidnappers who exist in this world have NOTHING to do with this discussion about the clear teachings of the Bible. And I haven't said the topic is related to cults.