LDS "There are save two churches only..."

[Rescued One]

Gen 48
17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father’s hand, to remove it from Ephraim’s head unto Manasseh’s head.
18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.

More than likely Lehi thought he was a Levite, all through the story he is preforming sacrifices and later they build a temple and live the Law of Moses. Once Nephi obtains the Brass Plates Lehi seems surprised to learn he's a descendant of Joseph through Manasseh. He was probably like the group of Levites who returned from captivity in Nehemiah 7 and Ezra 2. They knew they were Levites but could not prove it because their records were missing, ah the plates of Brass.

Neh 7
63 And of the priests: the children of Habaiah, the children of Koz, the children of Barzillai, which took one of the daughters of Barzillai the Gileadite to wife, and was called after their name.
64 These sought their register among those that were reckoned by genealogy, but it was not found: therefore were they, as polluted, put from the priesthood.

Gilead was a descendant of Manasseh and one of his descendants was "Zelophehad the son of Hepher had no sons, but daughters: and the names of the daughters of Zelophehad were Mahlah, and Noah, Hoglah, Milcah, and Tirzah", Num 2.

If one were to marry one of these daughter's descendants their family geology would be added to Manasseh's so if a Levite married into this line his records would be kept on Manasseh's records even though he was still considered able to hold the priesthood.

Part of Joseph's blessing in Gen 49 states "Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall" The word translated bough is "ben" which means son and the word branch or bath in the Hebrew means daughter, I don't know why they translated it that way. It should read "Joseph is a fruitful son, even a fruitful son by a well; whose daughters run over the wall/broader"

According to Strong's the wall was the boarders of Palestine "More correctly … is placed where Suez now stands. The desert extending from the borders of Palestine to Shur" The Suez canal connects the Mediterranean Sea to the Red Sea. Joseph's daughters would go over that wall.

One of the trips back to Jerusalem which Lehi's sons made was to fetch themselves some wives the daughter's of Ishmael who was a descent of Ephraim. So here we have Lehi a descent of Manasseh through the daughters of Zelophhad but also a Levitie and Ishmael's a descant of Ephraim daughters marrying the sons of Lehi bring the two tribes together as they travel over that wall. They traveled down the Red Sea and beyond.

As to where their seed is now, well I'm one of them!

We can tell that you aren't a professional genealogist. Do you have your DNA results?

 

[Rescued One]

Changed subjects pretty quickly there.

Your problem is you don't read the whole word of God but only pick out a few passages which fit your dogma.

When you're done being rude we can converse.

 

[Rescued One]

I agree, obedience does not save.
But here is the good news: Jesus SAVES those who ARE OBIDIENT.
If you do not obey His commandments you are not saved in God's Kingdom, you will not have eternal life.

Jesus saves the ungodly so that we can obey.

 

[Alla27]

Jesus saves the ungodly so that we can obey.

No, you just made this up out of nothing.
Jesus saves us so we can have eternal life IF
1)we have faith in Him
2)keep His commandments.
This is what Jesus and LDS Church teach.

 

[Rescued One]

No, you just made this up out of nothing.
Jesus saves us so we can have eternal life IF
1)we have faith in Him
2)keep His commandments.
This is what Jesus and LDS Church teach.

I am aware of the teachings of Mormonism.

This is Christianity:
Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 5
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.


3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Blessed be the name of the LORD!

 

[Alla27]

I am aware of the teachings of Mormonism.

This is Christianity:
Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 5
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.


3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Blessed be the name of the LORD!

So, Paul did NOT say what you said, that Jesus saves ungodly that WE CAN OBEY
Jesus died for ungodly so ungodly can HAVE ETERNAL LIFE
Jesus also says that only those UNGODLY who have faith in Him and keep His commandments can be saved/have eternal life.
This is so simple. This is what Jesus teaches and His Church, which is LDS Church, teaches.

 

[Rescued One]

So, Paul did NOT say what you said, that Jesus saves ungodly that WE CAN OBEY
Jesus died for ungodly so ungodly can HAVE ETERNAL LIFE
Jesus also says that only those UNGODLY who have faith in Him and keep His commandments can be saved/have eternal life.
This is so simple. This is what Jesus teaches and His Church, which is LDS Church, teaches.

Jesus taught this:
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[Alla27]

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,

amen.
those who have 1)faith in Christ and 2)keep His commandments will be saved by mercy. They will have eternal life.
but those who do NOT have faith in Christ and do NOT keep His commandments will NOT be saved by mercy. They will NOT have eternal life.
Nobody is justified by works. Nobody. We are saved by the grace of God through the Atonement if we have FAITH IN CHRIST and if we KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.

 

[Rescued One]

So, Paul did NOT say what you said, that Jesus saves ungodly that WE CAN OBEY

The ungodly can't obey until they are set free from the power of sin by having received the new birth.

Mark 7
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Acts 26
17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn themfrom darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Romans 3
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Ephesians 2
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Ephesians 2
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

 

[Rescued One]

amen.
those who have 1)faith in Christ and 2)keep His commandments will be saved by mercy.

You have no concept of what mercy is. Those who have perfect faith and perfect obedience don't need mercy. They earned etermal life. There are no such people.

They will have eternal life.
but those who do NOT have faith in Christ and do NOT keep His commandments will NOT be saved by mercy. They will NOT have eternal life.

Which person without the Spirit has faith?

Which person without the Spirit seeks God?

Which person without the Spirit obeys God?

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he knowthem, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

We are saved by the grace of God through the Atonement if we have FAITH IN CHRIST and if we KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.

There is no grace if you earn the blessing of eternal life.

We are saved and given eternal life when God gives us (the ungodly) the new birth thereby delivering us from the power of Satan so we can do the works that God has planned.

The Doctrine and Covenants is a book of LIES!
Section 130
Items of instruction given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Ramus, Illinois, April 2, 1843.
1–3, The Father and the Son may appear personally to men;4–7, Angels reside in a celestial sphere; 8–9, The celestial earth will be a great Urim and Thummim; 10–11, A white stone is given to all who enter the celestial world; 12–17, The time of the Second Coming is withheld from the Prophet; 18–19, Intelligence gained in this life rises with us in the Resurrection; 20–21, All blessings come by obedience to law;22–23, The Father and the Son have bodies of flesh and bones.

20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

“The demands of justice for broken law can be satisfied through mercy, earned by your continual repentance and obedience to the laws of God. Such repentance and obedience are absolutely essential for the Atonement to work its complete miracle in your life.”
Mormon Apostle Richard G. Scott, “The Atonement Can Secure Your Peace and Happiness,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 2006, p.42

 

[Rescued One]

See you never read the Book of Mormon

Wrong answer.

 

[Rescued One]

Actually, our faith is required for Christ to save us: He cannot/willnot save us without it.


Actually, the Bible is quite clear that our salvation is conditional on our faith/acceptance of Him.

God will force no man to Heaven.

Rescuing/saving sinners isn't called forcing.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

amen.
those who have 1)faith in Christ and 2)keep His commandments will be saved by mercy. They will have eternal life.
but those who do NOT have faith in Christ and do NOT keep His commandments will NOT be saved by mercy. They will NOT have eternal life.
Nobody is justified by works. Nobody. We are saved by the grace of God through the Atonement if we have FAITH IN CHRIST and if we KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.

You have added the part about keeping his commandments. Every scripture that Phoebe posted from the Bible says salvation is by faith but does not say anything about keeping his commandments, especially not as part of gaining salvation.

Why are you adding that part in? It's not in the Bible.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Rescuing/saving sinners isn't called forcing.

If the rescue administered without that person's consent, then yes that person was forced.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Actually, our faith is required for Christ to save us: He cannot/willnot save us without it.

But mormon jesus needs your help - you MUST do ALL that you CAN do first. THEN, mormon jesus will come in and do the stuff you couldn't do. Is that about right?

Actually, the Bible is quite clear that our salvation is conditional on our faith/acceptance of Him.

God will force no man to Heaven.

Absolutely. In fact, it is clear that our salvation is conditional of faith ONLY and NOT of works ("lest any man should boast"). The idea of working towards earning salvation, even any part of it, is Satan's lie that one can become god by works.

 

[fatboys]

But mormon jesus needs your help - you MUST do ALL that you CAN do first. THEN, mormon jesus will come in and do the stuff you couldn't do. Is that about right?


Absolutely. In fact, it is clear that our salvation is conditional of faith ONLY and NOT of works ("lest any man should boast"). The idea of working towards earning salvation, even any part of it, is Satan's lie that one can become god by works.

It is up to us to change and become better than we were. Until we reach perfection as we plod along repenting and changing we will commit sin. We can not pay for them. Jesus pays for them as we progress and don't do them again. He makes up the difference from where we were to where we reach being perfect in one particular law we had kept breaking until we over came it. Jesus does not or can not force us to not repent. He can not stop us from sinning. He does not and can not force us to change. That is up to us. Belief is not just enough to change your life. It is a good start but in order for anyone to qualify for the forgiveness of the atonement you have to stop sinning. Not in the general sense. I have been forgiven of many of my sins because I repented and don't do them any more. Those sins I still comitt I still haven't been forgiven of because I'm a work in progress. You believe that as soon as you believe all your sins are forgiven. They are not. They are paid for but you have to work at changing your life and not committ those sins. As soon as you stop sinning just one of your sins that opens up the door to gain access to that payment.

 

[Rescued One]

If the rescue administered without that person's consent, then yes that person was forced.

No one who is ungodly will consent to follow Christ unless God quickens him. Will you ignore Ephesians 2?
We were spiritually dead.

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

 

[Rescued One]

It is up to us to change and become better than we were. Until we reach perfection as we plod along repenting and changing we will commit sin. We can not pay for them. Jesus pays for them as we progress and don't do them again. He makes up the difference from where we were to where we reach being perfect in one particular law we had kept breaking until we over came it. Jesus does not or can not force us to not repent. He can not stop us from sinning. He does not and can not force us to change. That is up to us. Belief is not just enough to change your life. It is a good start but in order for anyone to qualify for the forgiveness of the atonement you have to stop sinning. Not in the general sense. I have been forgiven of many of my sins because I repented and don't do them any more. Those sins I still comitt I still haven't been forgiven of because I'm a work in progress. You believe that as soon as you believe all your sins are forgiven. They are not. They are paid for but you have to work at changing your life and not committ those sins. As soon as you stop sinning just one of your sins that opens up the door to gain access to that payment.

Ephesians 4
32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

We were unable to make ourselves worthy of forgiveness. It is Satan who has a stranglehold on us until Christ sets us free from the bondage of sin.

Romans 6
20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Jane_Doe]

No one who is ungodly will consent to follow Christ unless God quickens him. Will you ignore Ephesians 2?
We were spiritually dead.

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

This is not a response to my post. Again,

If the rescue administered without that person's consent (which is an action), then yes that person was forced.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

This is not a response to my post. Again,

If the rescue administered without that person's consent (which is an action), then yes that person was forced.

The vast majority of rescues are without consent due to the victim's being incapacitated and unable to rationally consent to or reject the rescue.