LDS "There are save two churches only..."

[Rescued One]

Satan does. But Jesus has the key.

You said "God does not cage." My response above is a response to that statement.

When Adam rebelled against God he and his posterity became subject to Satan. The only way to be released from Satan's grasp is to be born again.

Romans 8 NIV
5Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

2 Timothy 2
24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

[Rescued One]

Because the analogy is being applied to conscious people.

Those people are spiritually dead.

 

[fatboys]

Those people are spiritually dead.

Judge not

 

[Rescued One]

You said:
Everyone has the chance to reject God, and always will. From the never-believer-adament-fighter to the greatest disciple. God does not cage.

The one who is under Satan's power is not a slave to God. The slave to God has found freedom.

 

[Rescued One]

Those people are spiritually dead.

Judge not

I didn't judge anyone. I told you what the Bible says.

 

[Rescued One]

[Q

 

[Jane_Doe]

You said "God does not cage." My response above is a response to that statement.

When Adam rebelled against God he and his posterity became subject to Satan. The only way to be released from Satan's grasp is to be born again.

Romans 8 NIV
5Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

2 Timothy 2
24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Again, you are not listening to what I am saying at all, and your reply has nothing to do with what I said.

Freedom is the ability to choose, including the ability to choose badly. Being caged-- a prisoner-- is the opposite of that: one does not have the right to choose, including the right to choose badly. A person who cages another is one who robs that person of the right to choose.

You advocate a being that--
1) Does not give someone the right to choose to accept salvation.
2) Does not give someone the right to choose to reject salvation.
Therefore, you advocate for someone who cages people and holds them prisoner.

 

[dzheremi]

Well that's wacky. What sort of choice is it to do something for/to someone and then after you've done it, say you've preserved their freedom of choice because they have the option to accept it or reject it? Do you also go to restaurants, order food on other other peoples' tabs, and then when the bill comes tell them that there's no problem, because they can choose to refute the charges, since they didn't order the food themselves in the first place? Why not just leave others alone? That's not respecting others or giving them a choice. That's giving them an additional task to do that they didn't ask for, when they're of course already dead and hence have no say in what is done in their name.

Geez...at least in Christianity such decisions are often made for children out of the responsibility of the parent to bring them up in the faith, rather than maintaining this illusion that they are doing something without another's consent and yet also somehow respecting the 'choice' of the non-consenting party (you know...the one who is not electing to have it done themselves, and hence is not making a choice). That's at least internally consistent, even if people may still have problems with it (out of the particularly modern idea that children should have a say in everything, and so it's somehow a violation of the child's 'rights' to have them baptized if they don't choose to be). The Mormon view is not.

 

[Ironhold]

As opposed to what, then?

People being told "Oh sorry, your love one wasn't Christian / didn't get the Last Rites / was a member of the 'wrong' brand of Christianity and so will spend eternity in Hell?"

And no, I'm not making things up. I actually know of a pair of families IRL who were told that because their young child died before getting the last rites, said young child was going to Hell.

 

[dzheremi]

That's nice. The solution to one group's wrong theology is not another group's wrong theology.

And the point isn't even to say "what then", but to recognize that it's ridiculous that you say you're giving people a choice by baptizing them after they're dead.

 

[Rescued One]

Mormons teach that they can't become perfect unless they do baptisms and other works for the dead.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Mormons teach that they can't become perfect unless they do baptisms and other works for the dead.

False statement, and not related to the OP.

 

[Ran77]

Book of Mormon
2 Nephi 28
1 And now, behold, my brethren, I have spoken unto you, according as the Spirit hath constrained me; wherefore, I know that they must surely come to pass.

2 And the things which shall be written out of the book shall be of great worth unto the children of men, and especially unto our seed, which is a remnant of the house of Israel. (Where is this remnant?)

3 For it shall come to pass in that day that the churches which are built up, and not unto the Lord, when the one shall say unto the other: Behold, I, I am the Lord’s; and the others shall say: I, I am the Lord’s; and thus shall every one say that hath built up churches, and not unto the Lord—

4 And they shall contend one with another; and their priests shall contend one with another, and they shall teach with their learning, and deny the Holy Ghost, which giveth utterance.

5 And they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men;

6 Behold, hearken ye unto my precept; if they shall say there is a miracle wrought by the hand of the Lord, believe it not; for this day he is not a God of miracles; he hath done his work.

7 Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us.

8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

It is the Mormons who say you can progress to perfection in the next life.

What is the point of this thread?

 

[Ran77]

You ask, "How can there be only two churches?"

2 Nephi 28
3 For it shall come to pass in that day that the churches which are built up, and not unto the Lord, when the one shall say unto the other: Behold, I, I am the Lord’s; and the others shall say: I, I am the Lord’s; and thus shall every one say that hath built up churches, and not unto the Lord—

What is your point?

 

[JCFantasy23]

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[Rescued One]

Again, you are not listening to what I am saying at all, and your reply has nothing to do with what I said.

Freedom is the ability to choose, including the ability to choose badly.

Freedom is being released from Satan's power so we can do God's will.

Being caged-- a prisoner-- is the opposite of that: one does not have the right to choose, including the right to choose badly. A person who cages another is one who robs that person of the right to choose.

Freedom is being able to please God and follow the Shepherd. The sheep is set free from the power if sin --- those chains are broken!

You advocate a being that--
1) Does not give someone the right to choose to accept salvation.
2) Does not give someone the right to choose to reject salvation.
Therefore, you advocate for someone who cages people and holds them prisoner.

Satan chained us to sin; God set us free!

 

[fatboys]

Freedom is being released from Satan's power so we can do God's will.



Freedom is being able to please God and follow the Shepherd. The sheep is set free from the power if sin --- those chains are broken!


Satan chained us to sin; God set us free!

Do you know what OCD?

 

[Dan Bert]

Please read the Scriptures here is the allegory from Jesus. Concerning who will get many stripes and who will receive few.
Luke 12:47 - And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Luke 12:48 - But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto
whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will
ask the more.

Jesus stripes do not heal the wicked. They heal those who repent according to the Scriptures. Those that commit errors not knowing the will of God (law) worthy of many stripes, shall receive few...(mercy and justice) that that knew the will of God and did not do...shall receive many (Stripes)

dan

Reread it

 

[withwonderingawe]

Freedom is being released from Satan's power so we can do God's will.

I think you just swerved into one of our major differences and your belief in the original sin, that is Satan captured all of mankind and our sinful natures (which God created) have chained us to him.

While we believe we are born into a sinful world and our bodies have desires our spirits desire to follow God. We have freedom of choice to follow God or not.

"Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak"

The passage implies we have free will to choose.

You seem to think there is some magic power which draws those who God loves more to be saved and those he does not love are helplessly chained to the devil.

 

[Rescued One]

I think you just swerved into one of our major differences and your belief in the original sin, that is Satan captured all of mankind and our sinful natures (which God created) have chained us to him.

Indeed, there are major differences. Without them there would be no debate.

While we believe we are born into a sinful world and our bodies have desires our spirits desire to follow God. We have freedom of choice to follow God or not.

We aren't born with a desire to please God. Many children don't even know there is a God. This is why the gospel is preached:

"Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak"

Paul is speaking to believers who are capable of giving in to temptation. But sin can be overcome with God's help. He's reminding us that God has more power than we do and God can deliver us from evil --- just as Jesus said in the Lord's Prayer. Without the Spirit of Christ, we don't belong to Him and don't understand the truth. Truth is spiritually discerned.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Matthew 6:13
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Help is available because:



All praise and glory belong to God!

You seem to think there is some magic power which draws those who God loves more to be saved and those he does not love are helplessly chained to the devil.

Magic is nonsense. God's power is real.