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Are there Christians today who minimize the consequences of sin and ignore morality on some level?

Are there Christians today who minimize the consequences of sin and ignore morality on some level?


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FireDragon76

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The New Covenant, the Good News, was never about God only forgiving and forgetting sin (Jer 31:34), but also about excluding it, about God placing His law in man's heart and writing it on his mind (Jer 31:33), so we'll "go, and sin no more".

That's a mixture of good news and bad news, actually. All calling this Good News does is muddy the waters of what real goodness is.

It's not about God's suddenly ignoring justice, but about His restoring it to His creation.

... the legal and juridical categories of Roman religion about desperately propitiating an angry God.

Jesus didn't die so we could remain as "snow covered dung-heaps"; He wants way more for us than that.

He loves us just as we are, not as we should be. In fact the only power we will find for transformation of our lives is found in that acceptance, and nowhere else.

Man will never escape the most basic obligation to be righteous, to be obedient to God. Put another way, man will never escape the obligation to love.

More law.
 
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ToBeLoved

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First, you are not continuing to address any of the verses or words within Scripture I brought up. I also posted other verses. Second, what happens to the unprofitable servant? The unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Then that would mean the Bible and Jesus lied. Because Jesus said, "I WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU OR FORSAKE YOU".

So why is the Bible untrue and why is Jesus lying to us brother?
 
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ToBeLoved

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First, you are not continuing to address any of the verses or words within Scripture I brought up. I also posted other verses. Second, what happens to the unprofitable servant? The unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth by them.
So it is clear that the unprofitable servant is the type person who is being condemned here because they are associated with unbelievers.

That is interesting. So Jesus says, "HE is the ONLY just and righteous judge because ONLY HE knows the heart of a man", yet you are declaring a believer unrighteous yourself and talking about who Jesus will save.

That's the problem with Christianity, is when those who are UNRIGHTEOUS, take the power of judgement that is only for God and start judging according to their own flawed minds and flawed thinking.

You must be pretty righteous to be able to judge who will be damned or not in Christ's stead. Are you like God?
 
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ToBeLoved

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No. A change of heart leads to proper external behavior in obeying God's Commands within the New Testament (i.e. not the Old Testament).
So then, it is something we must do, to change our hearts and external behavior. Now where is the Holy Spirit who changes hearts? Because this is a believer who has the Holy Spirit, God Himself.

So this is man's choice and action. God is out of the equation and the Holy Spirit is just sitting there waiting to see what we do?

But then that would conflict with Romans. Because in Romans we have been crucified with Christ and HE CREATES a new creation. The old man is dead and the new creation is alive.

So when the person is deciding whether they are going to change their heart, is this another change. A change to the new creation Christ created or ??
 
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FireDragon76

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This is a good point, the judgementalism and fruit-picking is itself a sin. Some people have no appreciation for the depth of their sinfulness. I actually don't believe in "once saved, always saved". Someone who has such a judgmental view of sinners is flirting with shipwrecking their faith.

I used to go to an Orthodox church that had a very perfectionistic priest. Nothing is more corrosive to faith- it really amounts to spiritual abuse in fact. True Christian religion is about mercy and forgiveness, not going around thumping our chest and drumming up more good works to add to our list to justify ourselves. We should do good works because our neighbor needs them, not to impress God or ourselves.
 
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Then that would mean the Bible and Jesus lied. Because Jesus said, "I WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU OR FORSAKE YOU".

So why is the Bible untrue and why is Jesus lying to us brother?
Well, Scripture has to be read as a whole. For example: we learn in Deuteronomy 31:6 that it says,

"Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the Lord thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee." (Deuteronomy 31:6).​

Now, It sure sounds like God will not forsake His people here. BUT if you were to keep reading, it also says this....

16 "And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?" (Deuteronomy 31:16-17).​

Did you catch what it said in verses 16-17? It says that the Israelites (who were delivered out of Egypt by God's hand) will forsake him and break his covenant and as a result God says He will forsake them and hide his face from them. Now, I do not know about you, but God is not a respecter of persons and God does not change in His behavior in how He treats people. God is fair and equal with all people. In other words, if God forsaked his people for their breaking the covenant by going after other gods (which is a sin), then it is logical to conclude that God would do the same thing today with His people under the New Covenant. In fact, this is what God's Word essentially says in Hebrews 10:26-29 and Romans 11:22.


...
 
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This is a good point, the judgementalism and fruit-picking is itself a sin. Some people have no appreciation for the depth of their sinfulness. I actually don't believe in "once saved, always saved". Someone who has such a judgmental view of sinners is flirting with shipwrecking their faith.

I used to go to an Orthodox church that had a very perfectionistic priest. Nothing is more corrosive to faith- it really amounts to spiritual abuse in fact. True Christian religion is about mercy and forgiveness, not going around thumping our chest and drumming up more good works to add to our list to justify ourselves. We should do good works because our neighbor needs them, not to impress God or ourselves.

Well, the problem is that there is only one priest today who intercedes on our behalf. His name is Jesus Christ. There are no other priests.
Also, it is not a sin to judge. Jesus said we can judge righteously. Judging is only wrong if one does so hypocritically or does so by outwards appearances, etc.

Also, it is not about adding works to Christ's work on the cross. It is about allowing Christ to shine thru you because He is the source of your salvation that you attach yourself to. For there is no life without the Son (1 John 5:12). Salvation is not a super power or a magical wish granted to you by a genie. Salvation is a person named Jesus Christ. For Jesus alone possesses immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). So Jesus is the source of a person's eternal life. So no Jesus, and there is no life. If a person abides in Christ, then good fruit will be evident within their life.


...
 
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ToBeLoved

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Well, Scripture has to be read as a whole. For example: we learn in Deuteronomy 31:6 that it says,

"Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the Lord thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee." (Deuteronomy 31:6).​

Now, It sure sounds like God will not forsake His people here. BUT if you were to keep reading, it also says this....

16 "And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?" (Deuteronomy 31:16-17).​

Did you catch what it said in verses 16-17? It says that the Israelites (who were delivered out of Egypt by God's hand) will forsake him and break his covenant and as a result God says He will forsake them and hide his face from them. Now, I do not know about you, but God is not a respecter of persons and God does not change in His behavior in how He treats people. God is fair and equal with all people. In other words, if God forsaked his people for their breaking the covenant by going after other gods (which is a sin), then it is logical to conclude that God would do the same thing today with His people under the New Covenant. In fact, this is what God's Word essentially says in Hebrews 10:26-29 and Romans 11:22.


...
Deuteronomy is the Old Covenant. Very different from the New Covenant.

Salvation is the New Covenant. So your Deuteronomy verses are not proof text for the New Testament as far as if salvation can be lost. It is VERY CLEAR that Jesus says that the New Covenant is a NEW AND BETTER COVENANT than the Old Covenant.

The fact that you even mention Hebrews 10:26-29 when we have had this conversation about this verse 5 times is quite frustrating.


Hebrews 10

1For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5Consequently, when Christa came into the world, he said,

“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
6in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
7Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”

8When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when Christb had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

15And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

16“This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”

17then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

18Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

The Full Assurance of Faith

19Therefore, brothers,c since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Reading Hebrews 10, you will see that it is talking about Old Testament and the temporary sacrifice for sin that the Levitical priesthood performed. That is the sacrifice for sin that is no longer acceptable. The temporary atonement of sin through animal sacrifice. But you know this. And you used it anyway. That is dissapointing that you are not taking the opportunity to correct your mistranlations and understanding. Shame.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Well, the problem is that there is only one priest today who intercedes on our behalf. His name is Jesus Christ. There are no other priests.
...
Then why did you proof text Hebrews 10? The Levitical priesthood sacrifices?

You are acknowledging we are no longer under the Levitical priesthood, yet you quote Hebrews 10?
 
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FireDragon76

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Also, it is not about adding works to Christ's work on the cross. It is about allowing Christ to shine thru you because He is the source of your salvation that you attach yourself to. For there is no life without the Son (1 John 5:12). Salvation is not a super power or a magical wish granted to you by a genie. Salvation is a person named Jesus Christ. For Jesus alone possesses immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). So Jesus is the source of a person's eternal life. So no Jesus, and there is no life. If a person abides in Christ, then good fruit will be evident within their life.

Evident to whom? In the real world, people have a nasty habit of judging other people, of criticizing, of never being satisfied with the efforts of others. Most of us should not be in the fruit-picking business.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Evident to whom? In the real world, people have a nasty habit of judging other people, of criticizing, of never being satisfied with the efforts of others. Most of us should not be in the fruit-picking business.
Most people don't even know each other well enough to see true fruit over an extended period of time that see's someone in hardship to see how they handle things and what fruit they would produce.

Fruit is hardly hard to produce in season's of happiness. Seasons of great strife is when we our fruit producing capabilities are tested. And who see's that most of the time? Not anyone at my church seeing me twice a week for 1 1/2 hours.

And judgement from fellow Christians is hurtful and most of the world thinks we are BIG hypocrites. I wish we could stop this roller coaster. It's not edifying for anyone. Jesus tells us to go to a person in private, using the scriptures if they are in error. But that is people who know people well. Facebook following or seeing someone in church weekly, is not knowing someone's struggles.

Now with more and more communication that uses technology, we really know people less than we use to. People can put out there what they want people to see, not the real person if they would desire to do that. Now it is more important than ever, IMHO.
 
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Deuteronomy is the Old Covenant. Very different from the New Covenant.

Salvation is the New Covenant. So your Deuteronomy verses are not proof text for the New Testament as far as if salvation can be lost. It is VERY CLEAR that Jesus says that the New Covenant is a NEW AND BETTER COVENANT than the Old Covenant.

The fact that you even mention Hebrews 10:26-29 when we have had this conversation about this verse 5 times is quite frustrating.


Hebrews 10

1For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5Consequently, when Christa came into the world, he said,

“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
6in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
7Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”

8When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), 9then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12But when Christb had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

15And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

16“This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”

17then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

18Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

The Full Assurance of Faith

19Therefore, brothers,c since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

26For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Reading Hebrews 10, you will see that it is talking about Old Testament and the temporary sacrifice for sin that the Levitical priesthood performed. That is the sacrifice for sin that is no longer acceptable. The temporary atonement of sin through animal sacrifice. But you know this. And you used it anyway. That is dissapointing that you are not taking the opportunity to correct your mistranlations and understanding. Shame.

No. The Lord our God does not change. If He operated that way in the Old Covenant, that means He operates in a similar way in the New Covenant. For even in the Old Covenant, they were justified by faith and looked to a Messiah to take away their sins.


...
 
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Evident to whom? In the real world, people have a nasty habit of judging other people, of criticizing, of never being satisfied with the efforts of others. Most of us should not be in the fruit-picking business.

Nowhere am I judging living individuals personally here. I have seen some (and not all) Conditional Salvationists on certain websites wrongfully employ this type of tactic of trying to make a list of popular Eternal Security Proponents who are alive today (as a part of some kind of smear campaign); When the truth is: They may not know if these Eternal Security Proponents may repent of their ways in another five seconds of their writing about them. Not to mention it does come accross as unloving to speak bad about individuals on a personal level over and over again. So no. I prefer to only judge and attack primarily the wrong belief of Eternal Security itself and or those who clearly died in their sins believing in Eternal Security (with the destructive fruits thereof) as an example of their falling short of the standard life of a faithful New Covenant believer described in the NT.

This is why I strive to speak in a third person way and also make it clear to people that there are different forms of Eternal Security. If they happen to believe a particular version of Eternal Security that I have described as being immoral, it is not by my word or opinion alone that is doing so, but it is God's Word that is condemning such a thing. But will I attack you personally as an individual? I strive not to. But that does not mean I cannot judge a church as a whole who believe in something that is really wrong. For I can say the Satanic church is wrong. I can say JW's are wrong, etc. It is not wrong for me to point out false beliefs or churches (generically speaking). Not everyone believes in the same Jesus and or nor do all roads lead to God the Father.


...
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I prefer to only judge and attack primarily the wrong belief of Eternal Security itself and or those who clearly died in their sins believing in Eternal Security (with the destructive fruits thereof).
I believe positively you are judging righteously as Jesus says to - not a condemning type judgment but rather a judging that means true appraisal in God's Way , Wisdom, Experiential Knowledge, and His Word. True Understanding GIVEN by God. (not earned nor achieved by human flesh standard or methods).

That clarified,
likewise, I found that the osas crowd could not be changed, and sometimes likewise the individuals were UNwilling to listen to anything that did not agree with what they were depending on.

However, also, when God permitted extended conversation with one individual,
(in each case ) , the roots could be drawn out (sometimes takes 2 years or longer) (as Yhwh told me, )and I failed), like untangling a big very tangled fishing net) ...
the roots where it started; the source of anything that was/is opposed to Yhwh's Will.
The roots in any individual are sensitive , buried deep, long standing often,
and surrounded by hundreds or thousands or just two protection thoughts ideas and mechanisms FOR SURVIVAL (a wrong motive, but extremely common).
 
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I believe positively you are judging righteously as Jesus says to - not a condemning type judgment but rather a judging that means true appraisal in God's Way , Wisdom, Experiential Knowledge, and His Word. True Understanding GIVEN by God. (not earned nor achieved by human flesh standard or methods).

That clarified,
likewise, I found that the osas crowd could not be changed, and sometimes likewise the individuals were UNwilling to listen to anything that did not agree with what they were depending on.

However, also, when God permitted extended conversation with one individual,
(in each case ) , the roots could be drawn out (sometimes takes 2 years or longer) (as Yhwh told me, )and I failed), like untangling a big very tangled fishing net) ...
the roots where it started; the source of anything that was/is opposed to Yhwh's Will.
The roots in any individual are sensitive , buried deep, long standing often,
and surrounded by hundreds or thousands or just two protection thoughts ideas and mechanisms FOR SURVIVAL (a wrong motive, but extremely common).

Thank you for your words.

May God bless you, friend.


...
 
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Jack Terrence

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No. The 144,000 are found without fault before the throne of God (Revelation 14:3-5). That means if they can be found without fault before the throne of God, then so can you.
Where does it say that they "can" be found with fault before God?
 
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ToBeLoved

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No. The Lord our God does not change. If He operated that way in the Old Covenant, that means He operates in a similar way in the New Covenant. For even in the Old Covenant, they were justified by faith and looked to a Messiah to take away their sins.


...

Now that is astonishing. I've read a lot of stuff that I don't agree with, but to make that claim about the Old Covenant vs the New Covenant is almost blasphemy.

JESUS CHRIST DIED to bring us the New Covenant. If all that Jesus brought with the New Covenant is the same as the Old Covenant than Jesus died in vain and the Father sent His Son here to die in vain.

How can you say such a thing? Have you not thought it through?

You are right in God does not change. That's why the Old Covenant wasn't changed. Jesus brought an ENTIRELY different Covenant in His Own blood, sealed with the Holy Spirit, God Himself.


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Where does it say that they "can" be found with fault before God?

I do not understand your reasoning. It is a fact of Scripture. The 144,000 are found without fault before the throne of God.

3 "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God"
(Revelation 14:3-5).

Now, you can either do gymastic twists with the above text because you do not like what it says plainly, or you can accept what it says plainly here. It is your choice. But choose wisely.


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Now that is astonishing. I've read a lot of stuff that I don't agree with, but to make that claim about the Old Covenant vs the New Covenant is almost blasphemy.

JESUS CHRIST DIED to bring us the New Covenant. If all that Jesus brought with the New Covenant is the same as the Old Covenant than Jesus died in vain and the Father sent His Son here to die in vain.

How can you say such a thing? Have you not thought it through?

You are right in God does not change. That's why the Old Covenant wasn't changed. Jesus brought an ENTIRELY different Covenant in His Own blood, sealed with the Holy Spirit, God Himself.


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Well, I am not saying the two covenants are identical (but they are similar). Obviously it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the Old and New are different Covenants. They each have different Laws or Commands to them. They are also of different priesthoods, too. Also, the New Covenant merely gives us grace whereby under the Old Covenant, the Law could kill us physically for disobeying His Commands. But at the heart they both point to Jesus Christ and in having faith in God or the Messiah. Most believers now know who our Savior is in more detail, etc and His ultimate plan of salvation. But even Abraham had seen Jesus' s day and was glad. But does God's goodness and fair judgments change? No. That is a part of who God is always. God does not put on a mask of behaving totally different or contrary to the way He acted before when it comes to His behavior or good character. For when God says He will forsake His people for going after other gods, that is speaking about how God views faithfulness (which is eternal).


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ToBeLoved

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I do not understand your reasoning. It is a fact of Scripture. The 144,000 are found without fault before the throne of God.

3 "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God"
(Revelation 14:3-5).

Now, you can either do gymastic twists with the above text because you do not like what it says plainly, or you can accept what it says plainly here. It is your choice. But choose wisely.


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But, it also says "these were redeemed among men". That could very well mean that God intervened miraculously in them as part of His plan.

And then the phrase "being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb". That could mean that they were given perfection by Christ.
 
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