How does one come to believe something?

[Freodin]

I live in unimaginable joy...

To quote someone who might be familiar to you.

"You do not sound joyful..."

 

[StTruth]

Hi,

I think everyone is getting carried away and has forgotten the original post. How does one come to believe something?

For me, it's simple. I was taught to believe in God. The Christian God. That's how I came to believe it. But over the holidays, I read a lot of books and what used to be the bedrock of my belief seems to be somewhat eroded. I found a lot of errors in what I thought was a water-tight belief. The Bible that should prop up my belief seems to be toppling it. I've discussed this with my parents and the general agreement is I continue with the belief and try to resolve it as I grow older. I'm here to read some of the wisdom of my fellow Christians or the atheists, and I'm keeping an open mind. But I must confess it is my hope that the Christians will triumph. No offence to atheists but personally I don't want to be one.

Cheers,

StTruth

 

[Freodin]

There is One who is your teacher, and you have refused Him just as you have refused me. I could be your teacher, but you think too much of yourself to allow it.

Let's compare:
"A teacher - one who cares about the subject he teaches, who cares about his students, who is aware about the need his students have for his subject, who is able to engage and motivate his students - such a teacher will do what he can to ensure that his student understands the subject"

"A teacher - one who knows something that his potential students do not know - will insist on his authority and demands submission and unquestioning acceptence of his superiority from his students. He doesn't care if his students understand, he will grant good grades only to those who repeat his words faithfully."

One of these is a good teacher, the other is a bad teacher.
Are you really willing to say this "One" is a bad teacher... just as you are?

So, then, if you would not hear Him, and now me, but continue to refuse...the lesson is not the same. Now the lesson is rejection and humility, of being outside and wanting in, of being alone with your stubbornness. Now you must ask, and make your own demonstration as to why you should be let in.

I like how you constantly place you and "Him" in a similar position.. of authority, of knowledge, of "being refused". It teaches me a lot about this concept you mentioned here... "humility".

That is only true until you are desperate.

Hey, I agree. And your desperation shows in every new post you make!
You present a grandious claim that is doubted. And because we express doubt, now we have to "make your own demonstration as to why" we should accept your grandious and vacuous claim?

You really don't see how petty and pathetic this makes your position?
You said: "...you think too much of yourself to allow [me being your teacher]."

No. It is not that I think too much of myself. It is that I think too highly of "God" to accept your ridiculous representation of this idea as "truth".

Only truth is afforded such a privilege.

Says every snake oil peddler.

I have answered, and will say it again:

We are given our whole lives to sort it all out, as captives imprisoned with our own thoughts. And it is not a contest of who can impress us with the truth, but an opportunity to come back to a truth we ourselves once lost. No one owes us anything.

And how are we to come back to this truth? Here is one who tries to "impress" us with his "truth". Over there, there is someone else trying to do the same with his "truth".

Oh, no, they are not trying to "impress" us. They are trying to help us, to teach us, to lead us to the truth.
And how are we to decide which help to accept, which teachings to heed.. which person to follow? Throw a coin?

What defendant in his right mind expects the court to perform for him, to win him over?

But you do not even know that you are a prisoner, that death is the sentence, and that you could be set free - nor that we have come in your defense.

I like that you used the example of "court".

Every defendant in his right mind expects that the persecutor demonstrates and evidences his accusation. Every defendant in his right mind expects that his defense demonstrates and evidences the doubts towards the accusation.

No defendant - nor anyone involved with the judicial system, except a desperate persecutor - expects everyone to bow before the authority of the accusation proclaiming "He is guility! I know it!"

And for another reason I like this courtroom analogy: here we see examplified the question of "how to decide"? Here we do have two sides. The one proclaiming "He is guilty. I know it.", the other "He is innocent. I know it."

Now, dear jury... do you throw a coin?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

For you they are opposite poles, because you do not know God...

For me, they are not...

You really don't think that being an atheist and disliking Christians to the extent of going out of your way to avoid them because it was 'a big yuck!', and being a Christian living in the 'unimaginable joy' of God, are opposite poles of belief, feeling, and emotion?

One wonders what you would consider to be opposite poles!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

... I must confess it is my hope that the Christians will triumph. No offence to atheists but personally I don't want to be one.

Hopeful or wishful thinking can be comforting, but there's often a difference between what we would like to be real or true and what actually is real or true.

 

[StTruth]

Hopeful or wishful thinking can be comforting, but there's often a difference between what we would like to be real or true and what actually is real or true.

Hi FrumiousBandersnatch,

You are mistaken. There is no wishful thinking on my part. My reluctance to be an atheist has nothing to do with any hope of eternal life or fear of death. I don't want to be an atheist because I can't imagine life outside the church. I have always been a Christian and was an altar boy until very recently. My parents are devout Christians as were my grandparents. In my mind, the time of the year is marked according to the church calendar. I cannot imagine cutting out the Church from my life. The religion is too inextricably bound with my nature and identity.

Cheers,

StTruth

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

You are mistaken. There is no wishful thinking on my part.

I said "hopeful or wishful thinking". You said you "... hope that the Christians will triumph". So it's hopeful thinking that is relevant.

... I don't want to be an atheist because I can't imagine life outside the church. I have always been a Christian and was an altar boy until very recently. My parents are devout Christians as were my grandparents. In my mind, the time of the year is marked according to the church calendar. I cannot imagine cutting out the Church from my life. The religion is too inextricably bound with my nature and identity.

This is how such systems work; they can become so much part of your life that you can't imagine life without them. That way the doubters and even those who cease to believe find it hard to move on, and remain susceptible to peer pressure. But it's a failure of imagination that can be overcome, even in the face of intolerance and ostracization.

 

[StTruth]

I said "hopeful or wishful thinking". You said you "... hope that the Christians will triumph". So it's hopeful thinking that is relevant.
This is how such systems work; they can become so much part of your life that you can't imagine life without them. That way the doubters and even those who cease to believe find it hard to move on, and remain susceptible to peer pressure. But it's a failure of imagination that can be overcome, even in the face of intolerance and ostracization.

Hi FrumiousBandersnatch,

For me, there is also the issue of loyalty and love for the Church. I have served the church as an acolyte for a greater part of my life. It's only recently that I stopped. Although I could have continued, I'm now taller and the other altar boy who's my age has dropped out of church and the only replacement is a much younger boy and it would look odd if we walked together. My parish priest thought of letting me carry the cross but it's very hard to manage and I don't want to kill a parishioner by dropping it on his head. LOL. What I want to say is I didn't stop my duty at the altar because of rebellion or anything like that. All the priests of my church know me very well and they know my parents too who are devout parishioners who hold lay offices in church.

In this context, leaving the church is unthinkable. It's not the 'system' as you put it. It's just my own sense of responsibility to the Church.

Cheers,

StTruth

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

In this context, leaving the church is unthinkable. It's not the 'system' as you put it. It's just my own sense of responsibility to the Church.

It is the system (the church) that has inculcated the personal sense of loyalty and responsibility you feel towards its mores, rituals, and fellow adherents. If you had been not been raised within that church, you wouldn't have the sense of loyalty and responsibility you currently feel towards it.

 

[Arsenios]

I don't remember you citing Aristotle, sorry.

Alas! How quickly they forget!

Lol is that what you make of those who disagree with you? They must have "carnal" understanding.

If you had a spiritual understanding, we would have a basis of exchange, but by definition you have ruled this out and extol the brain above the mind, which is but a carnal [because your brain is flesh, you see...] grip...

I prefer calling it extra-super-transcendental-above-and-beyond-spiritual understanding.

At least you do understand carnal and spiritual to be in apposition...

Oh, is that what you have? Union with god? Maybe you could ask him some questions for me...as I'd like to get answers for them.

We already had this conversation, when I told you that if you go to people, you will find people, and when you go to God, you will have God, so that your petulence in this instance is mis-directed. You want answers to your questions, ya gots ta ask da Man! I am useless in that not-so-sincere quest...

I'm sorry, what's the difference between regular old "understanding" and "carnal understanding"? I'm guessing there's none...but you keep throwing those two words around like there is.

Understanding>carnal subcategory...

...youalreadyknowthat...

The Lord of the Rings was an allegorical fantasy about World War 1 and the industrial revolution. Frodo's compulsion to use the ring and it's weakening effect was an allegory for morphine. The Shire is England. The return to the shire at the end is Tolkien's return to England and the changes the industrial revolution brought there.

A great quest indeed, however you apply it to personal issues...

In other words, you're preaching because no one else shares your personal interpretation of the bible. At least you've got that in common with Scott.

I do not have a personal interpretation of the Bible - I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian, and the understanding of the Bible I know is the understanding of that Faith Community that first wrote and then has interpreted the Bible for 2000 years now... Our Faith is God-based, and not Bible-Book-based, but is the Faith that gave us the Bible...

Don't say I never gave you anything.

What about carnal reality?

Its purpose is, by means of its futilities, including its termination, to lead us to an understanding that denies its life-giving efficacy, and in the agony of that betrayal of the promise of birth, to turn us to calling on the God from Whom we are now turned away, and to find Life Eternal and the Joy therein in that is only found in Him...

Now I know that sounds poetic, but it is true, and if my witness of the truth sounds like preaching to you, could you for once please just cowboy up y'er cinch-strap and git over it??

Why were you an atheist?

Same reason you are - Personal integrity in the face of interior conflictions, and no experience of anything spiritual whatsoever...

Sorry to hear that...it would've been nice if you could do it on your own.

Our calling is to the Source of the Creation and Sustaining of the whole of the Cosmos... That is not something we can do, but must be given - That Gift is called Grace... But I again run the risk of pushing your "Stop Preaching" buttons, which seem to cover you in so many places...

We can't all be that strong though, can we?

Look - NOBODY is that strong, and those who do the best at it all by themselves and abide awhile in self-congratulations do not rise above carnal - They become effective on earth, and then they die... They do not ascend to Life in Christ... Christians are not concerned all that much with this earthly life... We are strangers to it, and anticipate departing from it with great Joy... Just as we walk upon this earth in great love for all...

You heard his voice?

The only way you are going to get the answer you desire is to ask the One doing the "talking"...
Ask a person, you will only hear a person...

Well I've already asked you about that...and your "firsthand knowledge" appears to be of the imaginary sort.

I totally get it that a carnal understanding can only understand a spiritual one as imagination... I used to live there...

'Nuff fer now!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

It is the system (the church) that has inculcated the personal sense of loyalty and responsibility you feel towards its mores, rituals, and fellow adherents. If you had been not been raised within that church, you wouldn't have the sense of loyalty and responsibility you currently feel towards it.

A mind reader you are NOT!

I was an ANTI-Christian for my first 57 years...

And I now serve in the Eastern Orthodox Christian Church...

Blanket blaming of ecclesiastical inculcation for loyalty to Christian values is a colossal fail...

Of course, I am but one anecdotal and discardible witness...

Ascribing inferred motives to others is not a good idea...

Arsenios

 

[ScottA]

Let's compare:
"A teacher - one who cares about the subject he teaches, who cares about his students, who is aware about the need his students have for his subject, who is able to engage and motivate his students - such a teacher will do what he can to ensure that his student understands the subject"

"A teacher - one who knows something that his potential students do not know - will insist on his authority and demands submission and unquestioning acceptence of his superiority from his students. He doesn't care if his students understand, he will grant good grades only to those who repeat his words faithfully."

One of these is a good teacher, the other is a bad teacher.
Are you really willing to say this "One" is a bad teacher... just as you are?

You make the mistake of putting it all on the teacher, and nothing on yourself. And you did not mention or acknowledge that the One teacher is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and God Almighty, who has given you your whole life to come to know the truth in your own way and in your own time.

Now compare a couple of students.

 

[StTruth]

It is the system (the church) that has inculcated the personal sense of loyalty and responsibility you feel towards its mores, rituals, and fellow adherents. If you had been not been raised within that church, you wouldn't have the sense of loyalty and responsibility you currently feel towards it.

I accept that. It's at least true for me.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It is the system (the church) that has inculcated the personal sense of loyalty and responsibility you feel towards its mores, rituals, and fellow adherents. If you had been not been raised within that church, you wouldn't have the sense of loyalty and responsibility you currently feel towards it.

Hopeful or wishful thinking can be comforting, but there's often a difference between what we would like to be real or true and what actually is real or true.

Yes, believe it or not this is true;
also
it is devastating to find out that all that one (of any group of thoughts; in any country; in any religion; in any industry; in any society or culture)
was taught growing up is all subject to being wrong.
Then,
to still continue (or to turn to the one True God in Jesus for the first time)
and have a complete change of life as required -
believing by faith in an unseen God
and trusting ONLY HIS WORD and not men or their ways
is A MIRACLE of SALVATION (SURPRISE! Salvation Comes; (paraphrased from the Message) )
that ONLY JESUS can accomplish, by Yhwh's Will.

It is A MIRACLE whenever anyone is SAVED; and ALL the angels in heaven REJOICE GREATLY whenever anyone is SAVED.

 

[Cearbhall]

For me, it's simple. I was taught to believe in God. The Christian God. That's how I came to believe it. But over the holidays, I read a lot of books and what used to be the bedrock of my belief seems to be somewhat eroded. I found a lot of errors in what I thought was a water-tight belief. The Bible that should prop up my belief seems to be toppling it. I've discussed this with my parents and the general agreement is I continue with the belief and try to resolve it as I grow older. I'm here to read some of the wisdom of my fellow Christians or the atheists, and I'm keeping an open mind. But I must confess it is my hope that the Christians will triumph. No offence to atheists but personally I don't want to be one.

None taken. Converting is difficult, especially when it seems that your brain has done so without your consent. My biggest piece of advice to you is to not have a predetermined conclusion. Approach the information objectively. If that leads you away from Christianity and you have an existential crisis, you can cross that bridge when you get there. You won't find fulfillment in faking it. It sounds like your parents are pretty understanding. You'll be fine either way.

My other piece of advice is to not let society tell you that you have to miss out on so many things if you're not a Christian or a theist. You can still be part of a spiritual community. You can still be in choirs or go on mission trips, if that's your thing. You can have rituals, books and symbols and holidays that are important to you, beliefs, etc. Being an atheist does not define my life.

 

[Freodin]

At least you do understand carnal and spiritual to be in apposition...

I am sure this works out fine for you.

But you would be a lot more credible, if you showed at least a hint at understanding "carnal".

This "opposition" gives you an easy way out. You don't have to show your "spiritual" understanding... because we would simply not get it. And you don't have to show any "carnal" understanding, because your new point of view is "in opposition" to it.

So you can keep on making assertions without having to show anything for it.

Sorry, I prefer my personal integrity.

 

[StTruth]

None taken. Converting is difficult, especially when it seems that your brain has done so without your consent. My biggest advice to you is to not have a predetermined conclusion. Approach the information objectively. If that leads you away from Christianity and you have an existential crisis, you can cross that bridge when you get there. You won't find fulfillment in faking it. It sounds like your parents are pretty understanding. You'll be fine either way.

Hi Cearbhall,

Thanks for your reply. Yes, my parents are perfectly understanding. They don't mind if I lose my faith totally. What they are hoping is that I will still participate in the life and Sacrament of the church and I don't see why I wouldn't want to. In this thread which I started I stated that the truth of Christianity is not important. I didn't make that up myself. It comes from Rev Walton, the Chaplain of Harvard University. One doesn't have to leave the church just because one discovers that Christianity isn't really all that true. What is important is when we make Christianity true with our actions and deeds.

Cheers,

StTruth

 

[Cearbhall]

Thanks for your reply. Yes, my parents are perfectly understanding. They don't mind if I lose my faith totally. What they are hoping is that I will still participate in the life and Sacrament of the church and I don't see why I wouldn't want to. In this thread which I started I stated that the truth of Christianity is not important. I didn't make that up myself. It comes from Rev Walton, the Chaplain of Harvard University. One doesn't have to leave the church just because one discovers that Christianity isn't really all that true. What is important is when we make Christianity true with our actions and deeds.

That sounds like a very healthy way of looking at it. I personally was raised in a Catholic community where belief was key and authentic participation was difficult otherwise, so I found a different religion and congregation that would allow me to keep what I wanted from my past religious identity. But I'm glad to hear that this option is open to you! That would definitely make the transition easier.

 

[Freodin]

You make the mistake of putting it all on the teacher, and nothing on yourself. And you did not mention or acknowledge that the One teacher is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and God Almighty, who has given you your whole life to come to know the truth in your own way and in your own time.

Now compare a couple of students.

It might be fictional, it might be from a cheesy comic book, but I found this saying to be very very fitting:
"With great power comes great responsibility! "

Yes, I am putting it "all" on the teacher... that is the way the power structure works, no mistake. You might be surprised what is possibe in paedagogics... where you just to drop your authoritarian view for a second.

I put the "all" in quotation marks for a reason. I know of the limitations also. There are good teachers out there as well as bad teachers... but they all are humans.
You, on the other hand, present "God ALMIGHTY". I expect more from an ALMIGHTY being than from an oriental potentate type that cannot imagine a course of action beyond kow tow or execution.

So if he has given me my whole life to come to know the truth... hey, and even in my own way and in my own time... then it is his responsibility to present me this truth in my own way and in my own time.
If he doesn't, he fails the goal that he himself set.

It is a bad teacher who blames his student.


I see that you ignored the rest of my post, especially the part where I dismantled your "court" analogy, as well as your assertion that "the truth" is extempt from the need of being demonstrated. But, see, I cannot make you acknowledge your mistakes, much less make you understand your mistakes. I try my best, but I am not that good a teacher, especially when faced with an obstructive student. But I am only human.

And still I blame me for failing you.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

A mind reader you are NOT!

I was an ANTI-Christian for my first 57 years...

And I now serve in the Eastern Orthodox Christian Church...

Blanket blaming of ecclesiastical inculcation for loyalty to Christian values is a colossal fail...

Of course, I am but one anecdotal and discardible witness...

Ascribing inferred motives to others is not a good idea...

Arsenios

If only I'd been talking about you... you'd have a point. But StTruth agrees with my description, as does yeshuaslavejeff:

I accept that. It's at least true for me.

Yes, believe it or not this is true;