How does one come to believe something?

[Ana the Ist]

This is an example of what is commonly called a 'deepity', giving the impression of profundity while being entirely hollow and content-free.

Back when I was a lad, we just called it something that rhymes with "pool spit".

I guess "deepity" works better for the forums.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Back when I was a lad, we just called it something that rhymes with "pool spit".

I guess "deepity" works better for the forums.

It's a more precise description - a particular kind of 'pool spit'

 

[Ana the Ist]

It's a more precise description - a particular kind of 'pool spit'

Point taken. Perhaps sometimes there's so much spit in the pool that a little accuracy goes a long way in describing it.

 

[Arsenios]

What happened to that awe filled wonder you were going on about?

lol - I thought you were skipping over what you can only understand as preaching...

You sound particularly more jaded when you stop preaching...

That is why repentance from self is preached -

I thought you knew...

which is your real self?

Can't have one without the other...

The self-aggrandizing preacher sputtering on about the same mythical stories of her forefathers?

"What's a girl to do?" was functioning as a figure of speech...

Or the jaded know-it-all who dismisses evidence of anything that disproves her beliefs?

Repentance is prior to ascent...

I am fully aware of the evils in fallen human nature, that's all...

I'm sure my mind can find a way to meld the two into a somewhat accurate picture of your self.

No chance, but you can keep trying...

It is the ascent part that will prove the stumbler...

But the cross will prove more anathematic...

Something about embracing suffering that stumbles secular understanding...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Point taken. Perhaps sometimes there's so much spit in the pool that a little accuracy goes a long way in describing it.

That's no shinanigans!

A.

 

[Ana the Ist]

lol - I thought you were skipping over what you can only understand as preaching...

You would need a thin understanding of reality to think your religion holds some monopoly on "awe and wonder".

That is why repentance from self is preached -

I thought you knew...

Actually, I do know why denial of self, repentance from self, denial of desire is a part of your religion and so many more. It's to keep you docile, lower, and content with less than those who preach to you.

What did you think it was for?

Can't have one without the other...

It would appear that way.

"What's a girl to do?" was functioning as a figure of speech...

Sarcasm in figures of speech doesn't translate well into text. It's a common mistake...don't worry about it.

Repentance is prior to ascent...

I can see why they'd want you to believe that. Breaking down people by exposing their flaws always makes them more malleable to one's lies. Expose basic human weakness, tell them that you hold the solution for such weaknesses, rebuild them as you like.

You've followed their plan to a T haven't you?

I am fully aware of the evils in fallen human nature, that's all...

Funny how when you step back apart from the whole dog and pony show...there's no real difference between "fallen human nature" and just "human nature" is there? Stay meek...maybe one day you'll "inherit" the earth.

No chance, but you can keep trying...

No doubt there's some things about you I don't know...but your reliance upon preaching where you lack any evidence or logic tells me all I need to know.

You don't have anything to offer.

It is the ascent part that will prove the stumbler...

Lies you tell yourself.

But the cross will prove more anathematic...

Lies you tell others.

Something about embracing suffering that stumbles secular understanding...

Arsenios

Lies you've come to believe. "Embracing suffering" is a great thing to preach to those who suffer. Why struggle against it? Embrace it, lay down, accept defeatism.

 

[Freodin]

I only have time now for addressing one point at this time:

Sorry, but the reason that you feel you are talking to a wall...is because you are. We can indeed have a conversation as two equal travelers on the way. But when we reach the wall (the Rock of salvation) I am immovable, a part of the Rock. At which point, things are no longer a discussion. Do you not know that this is the nature of Truth? And if you have any intention of seeking truth - why does it surprise you that I would speak this way?

So, then, should Truth be untrue, so that it is received by those who do not know truth? No - I will not. Perhaps you have read of Him who lowered Himself for just such a purpose - but that time has past, and will not come again. Come or stay - you must choose.

As long as you admit it.

But of course you are aware why this saying exists, don't you?
Walls aren't very responsive. Walls aren't very communicative at all. Walls aren't good at leading people, or being "a light to the world".

So you want to be a wall instead of a teacher. Well, that's your prerogative, and I don't blame you. Being a teacher is a thankless task most of the time. You get a lot of blame... but the rewards that you do get are more than worth the effort.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

... Stay meek...maybe one day you'll "inherit" the earth.

When the meek inherit the Earth, one wonders how long they'll be able to hang onto it...

 

[Arsenios]

You would need a thin understanding of reality to think your religion holds some monopoly on "awe and wonder".

I was citing Aristotle, remember? He wrote some 500 years prior to Christianity... Whatever made yu think I was claiming what you said?

Actually, I do know why denial of self, repentance from self, denial of desire is a part of your religion and so many more. It's to keep you docile, lower, and content with less than those who preach to you.

That is the usual carnal understanding...

What did you think it was for?

Have you forgotten already?

Self-knowledge and union with God...

But now, having said that, in answer to your question, I am anticipating your complaint that I am preaching...

Makes it hard to have a conversation...

Dysfunctional families have similar dynamics...

Sarcasm in figures of speech doesn't translate well into text. It's a common mistake...don't worry about it.

Never did... I threw you that curve for fun...

I can see why they'd want you to believe that. Breaking down people by exposing their flaws always makes them more malleable to one's lies. Expose basic human weakness, tell them that you hold the solution for such weaknesses, rebuild them as you like.

That is one garden variety standard carnal understanding... The truth is that self-knowledge opens the way to healing of self, whereas self-ignoring is demonstrably dysfunctional and worseningly septic... What you fail to understand is the voluntary nature of the quest - Like physical therapy, you only recover insofar as you are willing to push through your own resistance... The good news is that you can find people who have gone before you... The process is not imposed from the top, as you falsely allege, but originates with you to find the answers your personal quest seeks... Think Lord of the Rings...

You've followed their plan to a T haven't you?

I made that quest outside the Church, and have continued it within it...

Funny how when you step back apart from the whole dog and pony show...there's no real difference between "fallen human nature" and just "human nature" is there? Stay meek...maybe one day you'll "inherit" the earth.

The dog and pony show is conducted by those who think like you do... They are easy to spot in their judgemental preening...

No doubt there's some things about you I don't know...

A very generous concession, no doubt...

but your reliance upon preaching where you lack any evidence or logic tells me all I need to know.

There is no difference between a reality-quest and the God-Quest...

As an atheist, I simply quested for self knowledge and healing...

I ended up at its conclusion in God's lap and received both...

The next 14 years I KNEW I was NOT a Christian...

I didn't even LIKE Christians...

I would go out of my way to avoid them...

I mean, it was a big yuck!

When God told me He is the Christian God, I was scandalized...

And He took me into the Orthodox Christian Faith...

Go figure!

You don't have anything to offer.

Lies you tell yourself.
Lies you tell others.
Lies you've come to believe.
[/quote]

I speak from what I know first hand...

"Embracing suffering" is a great thing to preach to those who suffer.

It is totally counter-intuitive - Not a great thing to preach at all...

Why struggle against it? Embrace it, lay down, accept defeatism.

That is the carnal way of understanding what we do...

Overcoming judgmental and self-centered dysfunctionalism is a worthwhile quest...

Not doing so is but a wasted life of trivial pursuits...

Gimme a beer and gimme the remote!

Gimme a Ferrari...

Gimme a country...

All about Me-me...

N'est pas?

Arsenios

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

There is no difference between a reality-quest and the God-Quest...

Seems to me there is - one is a search for truth, and one is a search for justification.

The next 14 years I KNEW I was NOT a Christian...

I didn't even LIKE Christians...

I would go out of my way to avoid them...

I mean, it was a big yuck!

When God told me He is the Christian God, I was scandalized...

And He took me into the Orthodox Christian Faith...

Go figure!

I figure that a personality liable to switch unpredictably between opposite poles of strongly and confidently held beliefs, feelings, and emotions in that way, should should not be surprised if it happens again...

 

[StTruth]

After reading the post below this one I've decided my idea my not be correct and have withdrawn it.

Yes I have read what True Scotsman wrote and he makes a lot of sense: "No it's not. Premise one is not true. People believe things for all kinds of reasons, some valid and some not. I've had plenty of people tell me that I should believe first and then the understanding will be given to me. Clearly this is not belief based on the evaluation of evidence."

I just want to say that I'm impressed with your dignity and honesty in dealing with the matter.

Cheers,

StTruth

 

[ToddNotTodd]

What some recognize, is you write a lot of words, make a lot of claims and can't back them up with anything except; because you say so.

What Scott really needs to understand a that anyone else with claims that contradict his own can use the same tactics that he does, and Scott can't dispute the other person's claims to anyone.

At the end of the day, Scott isn't saying anything that anyone should listen to at all...

 

[Freodin]

At the end of the day, Scott isn't saying anything that anyone should listen to at all...

I wouldn't go that far. That is the philosophical conundrum behind this exchange: what if he had something that anyone should listen to?

What Scott really needs to understand a that anyone else with claims that contradict his own can use the same tactics that he does, and Scott can't dispute the other person's claims to anyone.

And that is the problem. Scott of course can and will dispute the other person's claims... because of his "knowledge". Which is fine for him.

But how is anybody else to distinguish between competing claims? That is the question he cannot answer, and that is the missing answer that makes his whole system of claims come tumbling down.

Any system that claims to promote "the truth", and cannot provide a method to achive this truth other than pure randomness must fail.

 

[ScottA]

Last I checked I am not in need to rely on you of all completely (not even at all).

The object of my statement was eternal life. If you have no need for it - so be it.

 

[ScottA]

And not only do you not even try to understand your opposite... you aren't even listening to what we say.
"Now, as a teacher, I am sure you have resorted to such comments, as: "Take my word for it", "Because I said so", "You had to be there", or "You'll get your chance"...all born out of the very real need to go beyond the realm of the student's ability to relate to the subject matter.
You are sure I did that... just after I said:"...if I were just to assert my state of "knowledge", demanded that my students acceped what I tell them "because I know", were completely unable to demonstrate my knowledge [...] then I would be weak, desperate and condescending."

A teacher tries to make his student understand, not repeat soundbites. A good teacher knows how to present his "knowledge" so that the student can relate. A really good teacher knows how to motivate his student, even when the student is reluctent to learn.

A good teacher never blames the student for not learning, for not understanding. A good teacher blames himself for not being effective enough in teaching.

There is One who is your teacher, and you have refused Him just as you have refused me. I could be your teacher, but you think too much of yourself to allow it.

So, then, if you would not hear Him, and now me, but continue to refuse...the lesson is not the same. Now the lesson is rejection and humility, of being outside and wanting in, of being alone with your stubbornness. Now you must ask, and make your own demonstration as to why you should be let in.

A "subject matter" that needs to resort to authoritarian blind faith isn't worthy of being seriously considered.

That is only true until you are desperate.

You are willing to discard each and every conflicting view based on your "knowledge". So accept that others do the same.

Only truth is afforded such a privilege.

 

[ScottA]

This is an example of what is commonly called a 'deepity', giving the impression of profundity while being entirely hollow and content-free.

What is the proper term for the blind defending their blindness with claims of intellect?

 

[ScottA]

What some recognize, is you write a lot of words, make a lot of claims and can't back them up with anything except; because you say so.

If the insight is of no interest to you, ignore it.

 

[quatona]

The object of my statement was eternal life. If you have no need for it - so be it.

So everyone who needs eternal life must rely on you, ScottA, completely?

 

[ScottA]

Walls aren't very responsive. Walls aren't very communicative at all. Walls aren't good at leading people, or being "a light to the world".

You have not been left in the dark, but you refusing the light - changes everything.

 

[ScottA]

But how is anybody else to distinguish between competing claims? That is the question he cannot answer, and that is the missing answer that makes his whole system of claims come tumbling down.

Any system that claims to promote "the truth", and cannot provide a method to achive this truth other than pure randomness must fail.

I have answered, and will say it again:

We are given our whole lives to sort it all out, as captives imprisoned with our own thoughts. And it is not a contest of who can impress us with the truth, but an opportunity to come back to a truth we ourselves once lost. No one owes us anything.

What defendant in his right mind expects the court to perform for him, to win him over?

But you do not even know that you are a prisoner, that death is the sentence, and that you could be set free - nor that we have come in your defense.