The evidence for evolution for Kenny'sID thread

[RealityCheck01]

You can play around with word meanings if you like, but whether you call something proven to be fact, theory or not, evolution still is not a fact.

People saying that "evolution is a fact" is shorthand for "the evidence for evolution is so enormous that it can treated as a fact". The overwhelming majority of biologists have been so convinced by the evidence for evolution that they treat it as a fact. Textbooks tend to treat evolution as a fact. Evolution will not be treated as a fact in science as soon as we find the proverbial Precambrian rabbit .

ETA: A relatively easy to understand bit of evidence for evolution.
There are things called endogenous retroviruses (ERV) which are viruses that insert themselves at random in the DNA of somatic cells and much more rarely germline cells. This means that a child will have the same ERV in the same locations as its parents with the very rare addition of a new ERV.
Human beings and apes share a number of ERV. Thus we share a common ancestor who had those ERV. The number of ERV we share with various apes agrees with independent measurements of our family tree, e.g. we share more ERV with chimpanzees than gorillas so our common ancestor with chimpanzees is closer to us than our common ancestor with gorillas.

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

Wrong, I looked up exact defintitions, and when science changes the definition, not just a bit, but a lot, it indicates a problem to me.

When did science change the definition of the word theory? It's an explanation of facts. Do you also deny the germ theory of disease? Do you reject the theory of general relativity? Do you reject atomic theory? Do you reject quantum theory?

I mean..hell, you bought the evolution thing hook line and sinker, maybe you expect others to be as gullible

You should walk into a biomedical lab and say this. You'll get laughed out of the building.

 

[Kenny'sID]

When did science change the definition of the word theory? It's an explanation of facts. Do you also deny the germ theory of disease? Do you reject the theory of general relativity? Do you reject atomic theory? Do you reject quantum theory?

So you don't see the difference in the fact Germs can be seen and evolution cannot? Let me make that even simpler, you can look into a microscope and see germs, you can't just look anywhere and see evolution, it takes a lot of convincing and it's still shaky...big difference. If you can't see the confusion that would naturally ensue buy you throwing both of those in there as theory, you just don't want to. Something doesn't pan out.

You should walk into a biomedical lab and say this. You'll get laughed out of the building.

And you think I would care, because?

That has hasn't stopped y'all as of yet.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

When did science change the definition of the word theory? It's an explanation of facts.

To be fair, the scientific use is different from the colloquial use, and this does cause some confusion. Colloquially, a theory is a supposition, a speculative hypothesis, hence the saying, 'it's just a theory'. In science, a theory is 'a coherent statement or set of ideas that explains observed facts or phenomena, or which sets out the laws and principles of something known or observed; a hypothesis confirmed by observation, experiment etc'. The italicised part is a crucial difference.

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

So you don't see the difference in the fact Germs can be seen and evolution cannot?

LOL! There is an abundance of evidence for evolution. It is one of the most tested theories in all of science....more than gravity.

Where would you like to begin? Comparative anatomy, the fossil record, embryology, DNA & genetics, experiments in the lab and in nature?

Let me make that even simpler, you can look into a microscope and see germs, you can't just look anywhere and see evolution, it takes a lot of convincing and it's still shaky...big difference.

Evolution is not shaky. It is accepted by 99.9% of practicing scientists. There is absolutely no debate about it. Could you explain in your own words what evolution is. I want you to demonstrate that you understand it.

And you think I would care, because?

Oh, I know you don't care. The point is, modern medicine is made possible by our understanding of evolution. The foundation of modern biology. Nothing in biology makes sense without evolution.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Evolution is not shaky. It is accepted by 99.9% of practicing scientists. There is absolutely no debate about it. Could you explain in your own words what evolution is. I want you to demonstrate that you understand it.

Oh, I know you don't care. The point is, modern medicine is made possible by our understanding of evolution. The foundation of modern biology. Nothing in biology makes sense without evolution.

John, I've been through all the lies and stretches of the truth to the point they might as well be lies and those are 2 I won't even bother arguing with. I only want to make the point when you do that it only shows desperation and doesn't help what little case you feel you have.

Where would you like to begin? Comparative anatomy, the fossil record, embryology, DNA & genetics, experiments in the lab and in nature?

You're a bit late, I've already begun and finished. Do you honestly think I haven't seen/discussed the little bits and pieces that those of you that choose to go along with the fairy tale that explains God out of the picture sees as evidence?

You've been duped because you want to be duped, just as the scientists have duped themselves, and one can see the doubt in your minds just by the way you act here towards anyone who doesn't buy your chosen delusion.

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

I only want to make the point when you do that it only shows desperation and doesn't help what little case you feel you have.

What desperation? It's a fact that evolution isn't debated among practicing scientists. It is also a fact that modern medicine depends on the understanding of evolution: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/medicine_01

Next time you get a vaccination, ask how the vaccination was made possible. You won't like the answer.

You're a bit late, I've already begun and finished.

Have you? Could you point me in the direction of your research that has been peer reviewed by experts in their field and then published into a journal? Lets see your Nobel Prize for overturning the foundation of biology.

Do you honestly think I haven't seen/discussed the little bits and pieces that those of you that choose to go along with the fairy tale that explains God out of the picture sees as evidence?

Evolution makes no claims for or against the existence of God. Evolution is accepted by the majority of Christians, including many on this board.

"The evidence supporting the idea that all living things are descended from a common ancestor is truly overwhelming. I would not necessarily wish that to be so, as a Bible-believing Christian. But it is so. It does not serve faith well to try to deny that." -Francis Collins.

Are you smarter than one of the most respected geneticists in the world? Does your ignorance over ride his years of genetic research?

You've been duped because you want to be duped, just as the scientists have duped themselves, and one can see the doubt in your minds just by the way you act here towards anyone who doesn't buy your chosen delusion.

I sense some psychological projection. You're not a mind reader, Kenny.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Evolution makes no claims for or against the existence of God. Evolution is accepted by the majority of Christians, including many on this board.

Evolution and science does/says nothing, it's people that make evolution, which in turn explains away God. You've already shown you choose not to see that, but don't try to tell me you have a logical argument for it, because you do not. I don't care who believes it, it's fully expected there will be a falling away from God. The majority of Christians? Will you please point out the actual Christians on this board? or will you admit, all who claim it aren't necessarily it? Meaning you are using another untrue twist to back yourself...didn't I already telly how that makes you look?

You're not a mind reader, Kenny.

That seems to be the popular come back, but I don't have to be, it's a claim you all make to try to hide the fact some things are just easy to see, anyone can do it, no mind reading necessary, just common sense. Or your way of making the simple and real sound off kilter, because the simple exposes you.

But do/think whatever you must to make God go a way, a little twist of the truth here, a little lie to yourself there, and before you know it you are actually believing things like...well, evolution.

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

Evolution and science does/says nothing, it's people that make evolution, which in turn explains away God.

That's the conclusion some people come to, yes. However, there are many Christians who are also scientists who work in fields that study evolution. Francis Collins and Ken Miller are probably the most recognizable names.

The majority of Christians? Will you please point out the actual Christians on this board? or will you admit, all who claim it aren't necessarily it?

Just off the top of my head: Armoured, Viacrucis and sfs (he hasn't been on in a while but he actually works in relevant fields of research). There are many others on this board. Simply going through a thread similar to this one, there are plenty of Christians on this board who actively post in the science forums that accept evolution.

no mind reading necessary, just common sense.

You are literally making things up about people you don't know. Where I come from, we call that dishonesty.

But do/think whatever you must to make God go a way, a little twist of the truth here, a little lie to yourself there, and before you know it you are actually believing things like...well, evolution.

More dishonest projection from you. Would you actually like to discuss the evidence for evolution? Hand waving it away and calling it a lie is not an argument.

 

[Loudmouth]

You can play around with word meanings if you like, but whether you call something proven to be fact, theory or not, evolution still is not a fact.

Evolution is both:

"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from apelike ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other, yet to be discovered."--Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory"
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_fact-and-theory.html

Are you not aware a germ can bee seen?

Are you not aware that fossils can be seen, species can be seen, and DNA can be sequenced?

Just because you guys can't decide exactly what the word theory means as you toss it every which way in order to try to use it to your advantage, far from makes evolution a fact or even close....you are getting desperate...stop it, it makes you look worse than you do already.

We know exactly what it means. It is creationists like yourself who can't seem to understand how science works.

 

[Loudmouth]

Evolution and science does/says nothing, it's people that make evolution, which in turn explains away God.

Evolution only explains away the beliefs of creationists, and creationists are not gods.

It can hardly be supposed that a false theory would explain, in so satisfactory a manner as does the theory of natural selection, the several large classes of facts above specified. It has recently been objected that this is an unsafe method of arguing; but it is a method used in judging of the common events of life, and has often been used by the greatest natural philosophers ... I see no good reason why the views given in this volume should shock the religious feelings of any one. It is satisfactory, as showing how transient such impressions are, to remember that the greatest discovery ever made by man, namely, the law of the attraction of gravity, was also attacked by Leibnitz, "as subversive of natural, and inferentially of revealed, religion." A celebrated author and divine has written to me that "he has gradually learnt to see that it is just as noble a conception of the Deity to believe that He created a few original forms capable of self-development into other and needful forms, as to believe that He required a fresh act of creation to supply the voids caused by the action of His laws."

— Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species (1859)​

 

[Kenny'sID]

Just off the top of my head: Armoured, Viacrucis and sfs (he hasn't been on in a while but he actually works in relevant fields of research). There are many others on this board. Simply going through a thread similar to this one, there are plenty of Christians on this board who actively post in the science forums that accept evolution.

You misinterpreted the question. How do you tell if one is a Christian or not? Or is just saying it make it so? Now you should at least understand the question and hopefully the reason for it.

It is also a fact.

It could be a fact I believe pigs fly.

Evolution only explains away the beliefs of creationists, and creationists are not gods.

Only to those who buy the nonsense, to some it explains nothing. You are talking opinion here, nothing more...opinion drawn on evidence you choose to see as evidence.

Why would anyone think creationists are gods? Out there.

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

You misinterpreted the question. How do yell if one is a Christian or not? Or is just saying it make it so?

I can look at the tags of posters on this site that describe their beliefs. If we're talking people outside this board, their claim that they believe in Jesus. There are many Christians who also accept evolution. They accept it because the evidence is overwhelming. Would you like to discuss the evidence?

You are talking opinion here, nothing more...opinion drawn on evidence you choose to see as evidence.

Wrong. Facts are verifiable and demonstrable. Evolution is not an opinion. It is one of the most tested theories in all of science. There is absolutely no debate about it in the scientific community.

Describe in your own words what you think evolution is.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I can look at the tags of posters on this site that describe their beliefs. If we're talking people outside this board, their claim that they believe in Jesus. There are many Christians who also accept evolution. They accept it because the evidence is overwhelming. Would you like to discuss the evidence?

Still didn't get it...oh well

There is absolutely no debate about it in the scientific community.

Untrue...period

Describe in your own words what you think evolution is.

Ridiculous request. Describe what you think I think evolution is.

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

Still didn't get it...oh well

You said this:

Will you please point out the actual Christians on this board? or will you admit, all who claim it aren't necessarily it?

I listed off the top of my head Christians on this board who also accept evolution. Also, questioning someones faith is against the rules on this site. Are you afraid to admit that there are a large amount of Christians who understand and accept evolution?

Untrue...period

It's accepted by 99.9% of practicing scientists.
Point out the peer reviewed and published research that questions the validity of evolution. I'll wait...

Ridiculous request. Describe what you think I think evolution is.

I'm not a mind reader, Kenny. It's not a ridiculous request. This is a creation/evolution board. Describe in your own words what you think evolution is. Unless you are afraid you might expose your ignorance?

 

[Kenny'sID]

I listed off the top of my head Christians on this board who also accept evolution. Also, questioning someones faith is against the rules on this site. Are you afraid to admit that there are a large amount of Christians who understand and accept evolution?

Not afraid of anything. And I didn't ask you to question anyone's faith, but if that's sufficient for you to Eva my point, use it.

It's accepted by 99.9% of practicing scientists.
Point out the peer reviewed and published research that questions the validity of evolution. I'll wait...

Ok, from absolutely none to 1%, that's a start, but you got all those numbers thus far from the same place, and it's against the rules to mention from whence you pulled those stats.

I'm not a mind reader, Kenny. It's not a ridiculous request. This is a creation/evolution board. Describe in your own words what you think evolution is. Unless you are afraid you might expose your ignorance?

You don't have to be, and I don't have to be in order to know the question you ask more than suggests exactly what I said. Afraid? There you go again with that tired old taunt.

 

[bhsmte]

Still didn't get it...oh well



Untrue...period



Ridiculous request. Describe what you think I think evolution is.

You cant describe what you think evolution is?

Hilarious!!!

 

[JonFromMinnesota]

Ok, from absolutely none to 1%, that's a start, but you got all those numbers thus far from the same place, and it's against the rules to mention from whence you pulled those stats.

If we want to look at science as a whole, it's 99.9% of practicing scientists that accept evolution. If we want to go to the relevant areas of study like biology, then it is not debated by anyone because biology doesn't make any sense without evolution.

You don't have to be, and I don't have to be in order to know the question you ask more than suggests exactly what I said.

You want to have a discussion about evolution yet you are incapable of describing what you think it is. Are you smarter than hundreds of thousands of experts? What is your scientific education background?

 

[RealityCheck01]

Evolution and science does/says nothing, it's people that make evolution, which in turn explains away God.

Not correct, Kenny'sID: It is the physical evidence for evolution that says that evolution happens. Science is people using the brains that God gave then to explain physical evidence, e.g. Newtonian gravitation is an explanation for the many observations of the orbits of planets and comets. Likewise evolution is an explanation for the many observations of the natural world.

Evolution says nothing about any religion. The vast majority of the people who have worked on evolutionary evidence and theory were Christians who did not believe that it "explains away God". Darwin's work was based on the evidence gathered by many Christian scientists. That "99.9" % of biologists who trust the evidence for evolution will include many Christians, etc.

 

[Loudmouth]

It could be a fact I believe pigs fly.

It could be a fact that you are avoiding what we present to you.

Only to those who buy the nonsense, to some it explains nothing. You are talking opinion here, nothing more...opinion drawn on evidence you choose to see as evidence.

That is completely false. It is science, not opinion. Sorry you can't handle that.