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Rapture timing

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Psalm3704

Psalm3704

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Riberra said:
Have you verify with your Bible to see if that guy tells the truth or you never bother to verify ? A wise man always verify with his Bible.

Here what Jesus wrote:
http://biblehub.com/kjv/john/17-15.htm
John 17:15 (KJV)
I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Click to expand...

Have you been so wise yourself when examining scriptures? John 17:15 has nothing to do with a post-trib rapture.

Read the titles on John 17.
~ Who was Jesus praying for in John 17:15?
~ What did Jesus say in His prayer in John 17:9?
~ “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world" What does this mean Riberra?
~ This entire chapter has nothing to do with a post-trib rapture.

Look at the link below and read the titles from the other translations too.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john 17&version=NKJV;NIV;NLV

John 17 New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus Prays for Himself
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Jesus Prays for His Disciples
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.

9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

Jesus Prays for All Believers
20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”​


Riberra, don't talk to me about being wise until you can demonstrate any level of wisdom and truth in your arguments. Bottom line is the only way post-tribbers can make their doctrine work is by cherry-picking a few individual verses here and there from the entire bible and perversely fabricate it to support their own belief.

**************************************************

Riberra said:
A wise man always verify with his Bible.
Click to expand...

A wise man is also not a King James "only" bible user.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/john/17-9-compare.html






.
 
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n2thelight

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Biblewriter said:
Any denial that the rapture will take place is a denial of explicitly stated scripture, and is therefore rank unbelief.

But the timing of the rapture is a legitimate subject for discussion. For ALL positions on the timing of the rapture are based on interpretations of various scriptures. There is simply no scripture that explicitly states the timing of this event.

And MOST differences of opinion on this subject have their roots, not in the scriptures under consideration, but in ASSUMPTIONS about the meanings of the words these scriptures use to describe associated topics.

My ASSUMPTIONS about the meanings of these words leads me to the conclusion that the rapture takes place before the beginning of Daniel's seventieth week.

Other people make different ASSUMPTIONS about the meaning of these same words. And these ASSUMPTIONS lead them to the conclusion that the rapture takes place at the time the Lord comes in power and glory to judge the wicked.

From another thread:


The error here is an unfounded conclusion that the Lord is only returning one time. There is no scripture anywhere that says this. This conclusion is unfounded because it is based on rank ASSUMPTIONS about the meanings of various words used to describe our Lord's return.
Click to expand...

Guess Im in that rank unbelief,as there won't be a rapture,period....Pre, Mid or Post

Scripture says Christ comes here and we are changed.

With that said can someone give me a clear definition of this rapture,not some timing but the meaning.I'll go from there.
 
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n2thelight

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Biblewriter said:
Several have missed the definition of the term "rapture" that I posted early in this thread.


This is the event described in this scripture:

"the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

This scripture is what I was referring to when I said that anyone who denies the fact of the rapture is denying explicitly stated scripture. It is legitimate to debate the timing of this event. But any denial that it will take place is rank unbelief. For it is explicitly stated in the Bible.
Click to expand...


And where will we be with the Lord?
 
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n2thelight

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Psalm3704 said:
This is the only way post-tribbers can make their argument work by claiming people come down from heaven during the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, however, the bible completely refutes such foolish nonsense.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
14 We believe that Jesus died, but we also believe that he rose again. So we believe that God will raise to life through Jesus any who have died and bring them together with him when he comes.

15 What we tell you now is the Lord’s own message. Those of us who are still living when the Lord comes again will join him, but not before those who have already died. 16 The Lord himself will come down from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. And the people who have died and were in Christ will rise first.​

1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 New Living Translation (NLT)
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.

15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, the believers who have died will rise from their graves.​


Jesus died and Jesus rose from the dead. The dead in Christ died and will also rise from the dead, not descend from heaven. You do know there's no such thing as dead people in heaven, right?

This might be difficult for a post-tribber to comprehend but in a rapture, people go up, they don't come. Dead people come out of the grave and ascend, not descend. Once you understand the basic concept, the flaw in a post-tribulation rapture is easily visible as the blinders are removed.






.
Click to expand...


How did you manage to butcher scripture like that?Anyway

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

These souls were killed for their stand in the Word of God. Who could that be? The saints of God, for their souls are now at [not under] the altar of God in heaven. Those souls have died and are with the Father in Heaven.

Revelation 6:10 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord [Master], holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."

Their blood was shed on the earth, while at this time they are pleading at the altar of God in heaven. To be absent from this body is to be present with the Lord [Ecclesiastes 12:7]. The time of revenge will come at God's appointed time. Before God, nobody gets away with anything.

Revelation 6:11 "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

No one is in the grave they return to the Father at death,if you believe otherwise you then believe in soul sleep...

 
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n2thelight said in post 642:

Guess Im in that rank unbelief, as there won't be a rapture, period.... Pre, Mid or Post
Click to expand...

Note that just as it is okay to use the English word "Bible", even though it is not in the Bible, so it should be okay to use the English word "rapture". And it is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up" together to Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming. For such an idea could be employed in our future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking that Jesus' 2nd coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the physically-resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then physically reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
 
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n2thelight

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Lets look at the scripture you butchered

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

This, Paul states, is not his words, but it is from the Word God gave to him. Where?Ecclesiastes 12:7, that is where it is written.

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," this is our gathering back to Jesus Christ. "Shall not prevent them", would be better translated, "We are not going to precede [go before] them." We can not precede them for a very simple reason; the dead are already there with God. It is the only logical fact that can come from this. If you do not, or will not believe this, then you believe in soul sleep as the heathen do, and the hope and glory Paul is speaking of, for the Christian, and you are ignorant of God's glory. Whether victorious, or sentenced to hell, all the dead are now with the Father, and not in the ground.

Paul, in another writing, told us exactly; as far as the return of Jesus Christ, when we would be gathered back to Him. That goes also for when we would see those who are asleep [dead], and that exact moment is at the sounding of the seventh [last] trumpet. It will happen very quickly, in the wink [twinkling] of an eye. I Corinthians 15:50-54 tells us we will not go away to any place, but stay right here on earth. We are going to be changed into our new Spiritual bodies, and put off these flesh bodies.

Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian.

 
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Biblewriter

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Luke17:37 said:
You have no biblical basis for saying that the Lord returning only one time is erroneous. You have decided it has to be, but the fact of the matter is, the Bible doesn't teach it.

Acts 3:19-21
19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

Peter, in his first sermon after he was filled by the Holy Spirit, said that Christ will remain in heaven until the times of restoration. I assure you that before or during the Tribulation is not a time of restoration. Conversely, it is a time of destruction (Isaiah 24). Restoration comes when the Tribulation is over and Jesus returns (Matthew 24:29-31) and reigns on the earth, ridding the earth of those who hate Him (Luke 19:27, Zechariah 14:12-15, Revelation 11:11-15) while bringing peace and healing to the survivors of the nations (Isaiah 2, Isaiah 11, Isaiah 65, Ezekiel 47, Zechariah 14:16-20, Revelation 11:15-18).

Hebrews 10:27-28
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

The first time He came to be a sin offering. His appearing is post-tribulational (Matthew 24:29-30). This would have been a great place in Scripture to add a third time, if there was one.
Click to expand...

Several people have said things like this, so this is an answer to all of them. You are correct that no scripture explcitly says that Jesus will return more than a single time. But the scriptures do indeed contain prophecies that would be contradictions if He were only coming back a single time. I have reviewed these apparent contradictions in other threads here. The Old testament also never, even once, said He would come more than a single time. But it contained prophecies that appeared to contradict each other. Now that we have the New Testament, we know that the resolution to these apparent contradictions was that He was coming more than a single time. So this scriptural precedent shows that this is also the resolution to the apparent contradictions in the scriptures about His return.
 
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Psalm3704

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n2thelight said:
No one is in the grave they return to the Father at death,if you believe otherwise you then believe in soul sleep...
Click to expand...

You don't seem to know what soul sleep means. I can assure you if you go to any cemetery near you and start digging, you'll find corpses in the grave. The bodies of the dead will not rise until Jesus comes to rapture them.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 New King James Version (NKJV)
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.​

n2thelight said:
Scripture says Christ comes here and we are changed.
Click to expand...

NO, it does not say that in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 nor anywhere else in the bible.

n2thelight said:
Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian.
Click to expand...

Do you see Christ mentioned anywhere in there? We don't all change when Christ comes.









.
 
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Luke17:37

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Biblewriter said:
Several people have said things like this, so this is an answer to all of them. You are correct that no scripture explcitly says that Jesus will return more than a single time. But the scriptures do indeed contain prophecies that would be contradictions if He were only coming back a single time. I have reviewed these apparent contradictions in other threads here. The Old testament also never, even once, said He would come more than a single time. But it contained prophecies that appeared to contradict each other. Now that we have the New Testament, we know that the resolution to these apparent contradictions was that He was coming more than a single time. So this scriptural precedent shows that this is also the resolution to the apparent contradictions in the scriptures about His return.
Click to expand...

We've talked before about this, and most of my replies you ignored. Your assertion of apparent contradictions doesn't hold water to me.
 
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My comment

Briefly ......

There is no greater controversy over the subject of this thread today

Why? .... think about it

The truth about this significant encounter has been revealed in advance, both the timing sequence, and the purpose .... and even the evidence

The purpose is to immortalize the spirit of a man whether dead, or alive at the moment of the Lord's coming action .... He has the dating of the moment on His schedule that He alone knows

Both those who are "asleep" [waiting] and those who are alive at that future moment will be changed to immortality .... together .... at the same time

No man's spirit, dead or alive, has been made immortal .... not one

Only the Lord alone has the attribute .... He is the "Alpha and the Omega"

He also intends to bring judgment upon a world of unbelief to punish those who refuse to believe the truth about Him .... these are not the ones above

His has promised to keep His true ecclesia above from experiencing His scheduled judgment of the tribulation for which there would be no purpose .... and this He will do

There are numerous scriptures when taken together that confirm His intents above .... no doubt

I am not going to list them .... the serious reader of this post needs to find them

For some reason there is aggressive opposition to the truth about this matter as the world nears the time

There is one who opposes for motive .... there is a rat in the woodpile
 
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Riberra

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Biblewriter said:
The Old testament also never, even once, said He would come more than a single time. But it contained prophecies that appeared to contradict each other.

Now that we have the New Testament, we know that the resolution to these apparent contradictions was that He was coming more than a single time.
Click to expand...
Now that we have the New testament we can pinpoint precisely the OT Prophecies who pertained to Jesus First Coming.
The unfullfilled OT prophecies about the Coming of The Lord,the Resurrection of His Saints and the destruction of His enemies are about the Second Coming.

Biblewriter said:
So this scriptural precedent shows that this is also the resolution to the apparent contradictions in the scriptures about His return.
Click to expand...

Search for the word Parousia in a Bible Dictionary and you will see that all the New Testament Prophecies concerning Jesus' Return are all consistent together and will be fulfilled at His Second Coming and some soon thereafter , in the days following His Coming.

Read the refence below:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/parousia/
 
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My comment

Much simpler .... and no contradictions

He is only going to intervene once to bring the following in unbroken sequence: call His true ecclesia, judge the unbelieving world, appear at the end of His judgment upon the earth, rule His millennial kingdom upon the earth, destroy the rebels at the end of the kingdom, judge the unbelieving spirits of humanity, and bring His eternal kingdom that will last forever

He will not come and go .... He does not leave the building .... in fact He is present and watching as we speak

He is omniscient, omnipresent, and knows the end from the beginning of all things

All of the argumentation on this matter is ridiculous
 
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keras

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Biblewriter said:
You are correct that no scripture explcitly says that Jesus will return more than a single time. But the scriptures do indeed contain prophecies that would be contradictions if He were only coming back a single time.
Click to expand...
This is correct. The Lord will come first in fire, as Isaiah 66:15-17, Zephaniah 3:8, 2 Peter 3:7 and many others say. It will be the Sixth Seal worldwide judgement/punishment of the nations. Habakkuk 3:12, Psalms 110:5-6, Revelation 14:18-20 + +
He won't be seen on that Day, Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4, in fact from some of the descriptions of that terrible Day, He actually remains in heaven:
Psalms 11:4-6 The Lord is in His holy Temple, on His throne in heaven, His searching eye test mankind and He hates all who love violence. He rains fiery coals and brimstone upon the wicked, scorching winds will be their portion. Malachi 4:1
The Lord will instigate this devastating worldwide Day of fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis, by using His creation: the sun. Isaiah 30:26, Psalms 50:1-3 We know the sun can and has at times, exploded out vast amounts of superheated hydrogen plasma. Small Coronal Mass Ejections cause radio interference and auroras, but the one the Lord will send; a direct hit onto the Middle East at midday, Zephaniah 2:4, will cause all the graphically described disasters prophesied about the Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath. Isaiah 24:1-13, Joel 2:1-11, Hebrews 10:27

After all that is prophesied which happens before Jesus Returns, THEN He will come in glory, visible to everyone, He destroys the armies attacking Jerusalem by the Sword of His Word and sends His angels to gather His own people from around the world to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. He will reign a King of the world for the next 1000 years.
 
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Straightshot said:
My comment

Much simpler .... and no contradictions

He is only going to intervene once to bring the following in unbroken sequence: call His true ecclesia, judge the unbelieving world, appear at the end of His judgment upon the earth, rule His millennial kingdom upon the earth, destroy the rebels at the end of the kingdom, judge the unbelieving spirits of humanity, and bring His eternal kingdom that will last forever

He will not come and go .... He does not leave the building .... in fact He is present and watching as we speak
Click to expand...
You are right He will not Come to take the Church to Heaven before the Tribulation and come back with the Church seven years later.
He will come to STAY and REIGN on the Earth
 
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"You are right He will not Come to take the Church to Heaven before the Tribulation and come back with the Church seven years later.
He will come to STAY and REIGN on the Earth"


He will come to immortalize His true ecclesia first

I know you don't want Him to call for you Riberra ... but that is your problem ..... have a little talk with Him about the issue that you have with His promise

He may give you an out .... tell Him that you want to ride the tribulation of His wrath and He may grant your wish .... I would say yes

In the mean time do a little study on just what it means to be immortal and present all of the time .... the eternal realm is much different than you must think

The Lord is always present .... He does not come and go as you say

He can appear and disappear in the material world, but you need to upgrade your thinking on the subject .... you are looking from a human perspective



 
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Riberra

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Straightshot said:
Riberra said:
"You are right He will not Come to take the Church to Heaven before the Tribulation and come back with the Church seven years later.
He will come to STAY and REIGN on the Earth"
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He will come to immortalize His true ecclesia first
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The call for His true Ecclesia is the Resurrection of His Saints unto His Coming.No trip to Heaven.

The (rapture) is only the caught up of the resurrected Saints and of the living survivors Saints (still alive and remain after the 42 months reign of the Beast) to meet Jesus in the air unto His Coming (The Parousia)1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.
 
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Straightshot

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I don't think that you understand what a "trip to heaven" means in the first place .... so a bad starting place for you .... the transformation to immortality is far different that what you describe

My guess is that you have been mislead by those want to discredit the Lord's promise for some reason [Revelation 3:10]

The supporting evidence of this truth is overwhelming in scripture .... suggest that you figure it out before for it is too late for you
 
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Riberra

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Straightshot said:
I don't think that you understand what a "trip to heaven" means in the first place .... so a bad starting place for you .... the transformation to immortality is far different that what you describe

My guess is that you have been mislead by those want to discredit the Lord's promise for some reason [Revelation 3:10]

The supporting evidence of this truth is overwhelming in scripture .... suggest that you figure it out before for it is too late for you
Click to expand...
Why are you ignoring verse 12 ?
The promise of the resurrection to eternal life to reign with Jesus on the Earth/and /in a future time/ the access to New Jerusalem which cometh down out of heaven from God, is made to those who will overcome ...not for those who believe that they will not be there when the time of trial will come upon all them who dwell upon the earth

Revelation 3:10-12
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, TO TRY them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
 
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keras

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Hanging a complete theory on verses like Revelation 3:10, thinking they mean a physical removal to heaven no less, is a very tenuous and flimsy belief. Not only is there no clear promise of such a thing, Jesus specifically says that it is impossible.
We must be tested and our faith tried to prove we are worthy and to become the overcomers of Rev 3:12

Again Straightshot your unpleasant attitude shows through, saying to those who refute your beliefs, they will not receive God's Promises. I do not think any of us has the prophesies fully understood, incl myself. So for all of us, it is best to maintain a open mind and most of all keep strong in our faith during whatever happens.
 
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Biblewriter said:
And the fact is that you have yet to show a clear teaching of the post trib rapture. The Bible simply does not state when this event will occur. ALL positions on its timing are based on interpretations of scripture. But almost every argument I have ever seen for the post trib position is based on the erroneous assumption that our Lord is only returning one time.
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The bible clearly teaches the rapture occurs right along with the resurrection Biblewriter! John 6:35-58, 1 Corinthians 15:20-58, and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. The bible clearly teaches the rapture happens to living believers when Jesus returns to judge this world in righteousness.

You see I don't buy your dispensational tribulation because Jesus clearly teaches it would occur against the Jews...and it did!
 
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