Rapture timing

[ebedmelech]

The words "could," "perhaps," and "maybe" have no place in normal exposition of the scriptures. The Bible either teaches a concept, or it does not teach it. If the Bible teaches it, none of these words apply. And if the Bible does not teach it, all such words are 100% pure presumption.

The fact is the bible doesn't teach a "pre-trib rapture". What it teaches precisely is that the rapture is the catching away of living saints at the resurrection.

It clearly says the dead saints rise first and the living saints are then "caught up" to meet the Lord. The question Paul is answering to the Thessalonian saints is what happens at resurrection.

 

[ebedmelech]

The pre-trib rapture is a Satanic deception, Jesus Himself refutes any idea of living people going to live in heaven.

On this point Keras, I wouldn't call the pretrib rapture a "Satanic deception". I think it's basically an erroneous teaching that Satan has used to create division in the church.

Those who believe in the "pretrib rapture" will have a rude awakening though...when it doesn't happen.

 

[Biblewriter]

The fact is the bible doesn't teach a "pre-trib rapture". What it teaches precisely is that the rapture is the catching away of living saints at the resurrection.

It clearly says the dead saints rise first and the living saints are then "caught up" to meet the Lord. The question Paul is answering to the Thessalonian saints is what happens at resurrection.

That is your opinion. We have been through this again and again. And I am not going to go through it again.

 

[ebedmelech]

That is your opinion. We have been through this again and again. And I am not going to go through it again.

It is my opinion...and indeed we have been over this a few times Biblewriter...but the fact is no matter how many times we've been through it you have yet to show a clear teaching of the "pretrib rapture". Not one verse of scripture teaches it! What you do have is contrived teaching of it.

We don't have to go over it again...time will tell as your view continues to fail.

 

[Biblewriter]

It is my opinion...and indeed we have been over this a few times Biblewriter...but the fact is no matter how many times we've been through it you have yet to show a clear teaching of the "pretrib rapture". Not one verse of scripture teaches it! What you do have is contrived teaching of it.

We don't have to go over it again...time will tell as your view continues to fail.

And the fact is that you have yet to show a clear teaching of the post trib rapture. The Bible simply does not state when this event will occur. ALL positions on its timing are based on interpretations of scripture. But almost every argument I have ever seen for the post trib position is based on the erroneous assumption that our Lord is only returning one time.

 

[Job8]

SS, you know by now that there is no scripture stating God intends for humans to live in heaven.

Really? Please study all the Scriptures pertaining to Heaven.

 

[Job8]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 shows a distinction between the dead and living saints.

The only distinction is that the dead are resurrected even while the living are transformed. But this passage shows that ALL the saints (dead and living) are together with the Lord at the Resurrection/ Rapture.

 

[Riberra]

And the fact is that you have yet to show a clear teaching of the post trib rapture. The Bible simply does not state when this event will occur.

Wrong, the Bible clearly state that this will happen UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD.Unto His coming the dead Saints are resurrected ... while the living surviving Saints are transformed then come the caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

ALL positions on its timing are based on interpretations of scripture. But almost every argument I have ever seen for the post trib position is based on the erroneous assumption that our Lord is only returning one time.

1-We know the Scriptures who pertained to Jesus' First Advent.

2-The unfullfilled prophecies concerning His Coming as King of King and the resurrection of the Saints pertain to His Second Coming (The Parousia)

3-The culmination of our Lord perfect plan is described in
Revelation 21 and Revelation 22 .

 

[Riberra]

The only distinction is that the dead are resurrected even while the living are transformed. But this passage shows that ALL the saints (dead and living) are together with the Lord at the Resurrection/ Rapture.

The (rapture) is only the caught up of the resurrected Saints and of the living survivors Saints (still alive and remain after the 42 months reign of the Beast) to meet Jesus in the air unto His Coming ( The Parousia ).No trip to Heaven ....

 

[keras]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 shows a distinction between the dead and living saints.

Yes, and that scripture is clearly at the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign.
The dead are given new bodies and those who remain alive will be gathered to where He is. Namely: Jerusalem.

On this point Keras, I wouldn't call the pretrib rapture a "Satanic deception". I think it's basically an erroneous teaching that Satan has used to create division in the church.

Those who believe in the "pretrib rapture" will have a rude awakening though...when it doesn't happen.

Thanks, Ebed.
Satan is laughing at how so many have been fooled by the rapture to heaven lie. They are lulled into a sense of false security and when the test comes, 1 Peter 4:12, many will lose their faith, thinking God has failed them.

And the fact is that you have yet to show a clear teaching of the post trib rapture. The Bible simply does not state when this event will occur. ALL positions on its timing are based on interpretations of scripture.

I see 1 Thess 4:16, Matthew 24:29-31, as perfectly clear: at Jesus' Return, that is after the GT, He will gather His own.

Really? Please study all the Scriptures pertaining to Heaven.

I suggest you study the prophesies to ascertain what God actually has planned for His righteous people. Ezekiel 34:11-31, Jeremiah 23:3, Isaiah 35:1-10, Psalms 37:29 And do not think those prophesies pertain only to the Jews, they belong to every true Christian, from every race, nation and language. Isaiah 56:1-8

 

[Riberra]

On this point Keras, I wouldn't call the pretrib rapture a "Satanic deception". I think it's basically an erroneous teaching that Satan has used to create division in the church.

Those who believe in the "pretrib rapture" will have a rude awakening though...when it doesn't happen.

Satan is laughing at how so many have been fooled by the rapture to heaven lie. They are lulled into a sense of false security and when the test comes, 1 Peter 4:12, many will lose their faith, thinking God has failed them.

So true.
The feeling good sensation provided by the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is like a drug for them. ...they need it so much that they are like "junkies".They don't want to hear about anything else... even when humble servants of our Lord Jesus Christ try to warn them.

 

[Riberra]

Can you find only ONE VERSE (coming from the Bible) among those 250 REASONS FOR THE Pre-trib rapture saying that the believers will be taken out of the Earth to Heaven before the tribulation ?

By the way, is this what you're looking for Riberra? Reason #65.

ROFL!!! You must feel so retarded right now after reading the comment below! Ha-ha-ha!!!
Noah’s ark was LIFTED ABOVE the JUDGMENT, and ALL within the ARK were KEPT SAFE and were NOT judged. So likewise, the Church will be LIFTED ABOVE the judgment, and take to heaven, in our ARK, Jesus, and will NOT suffer WRATH.

]http://www.jesusisthecomingking.com/2011/03/250-reasons-for-pre-trib-rapture.html

Ok ,so your guru on that website where you take all your reference about "the pre-tribulation rapture" claim in #65 that Jesus will take the Church out of the Earth to Heaven before the tribulation to avoid wrath .

Have you verify with your Bible to see if that guy tells the truth or you never bother to verify ? A wise man always verify with his Bible.


Here what Jesus wrote:
http://biblehub.com/kjv/john/17-15.htm
John 17:15 (KJV)
I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Let me anticipate your next move:
1-You will not believe what is written in your Bible.
2.-You will claim that this have nothing to do with the last generation and the coming tribulation. Your usual bla -bla -bla, totally void of commun sense that will inevitably be mixed with insults.

 

[Luke17:37]

The only distinction is that the dead are resurrected even while the living are transformed. But this passage shows that ALL the saints (dead and living) are together with the Lord at the Resurrection/ Rapture.

You are correct.

Before you said:
If Christ is to come WITH His saints, then He must logically come first FOR His saints.

Your assumption (italics added) isn't necessary. Since He comes with the dead (resurrecting them) and brings up the living, there's no requirement for a previous rapture. And 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is clear that the rapture of the living saints doesn't precede the resurrection of the Church. As also, Revelation 20:4-6 is clear that the first resurrection--the resurrection of the righteous--includes the beheaded martyrs from the Tribulation.

 

[Luke17:37]

And the fact is that you have yet to show a clear teaching of the post trib rapture. The Bible simply does not state when this event will occur. ALL positions on its timing are based on interpretations of scripture. But almost every argument I have ever seen for the post trib position is based on the erroneous assumption that our Lord is only returning one time.

You have no biblical basis for saying that the Lord returning only one time is erroneous. You have decided it has to be, but the fact of the matter is, the Bible doesn't teach it.

Acts 3:19-21
19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

Peter, in his first sermon after he was filled by the Holy Spirit, said that Christ will remain in heaven until the times of restoration. I assure you that before or during the Tribulation is not a time of restoration. Conversely, it is a time of destruction (Isaiah 24). Restoration comes when the Tribulation is over and Jesus returns (Matthew 24:29-31) and reigns on the earth, ridding the earth of those who hate Him (Luke 19:27, Zechariah 14:12-15, Revelation 11:11-15) while bringing peace and healing to the survivors of the nations (Isaiah 2, Isaiah 11, Isaiah 65, Ezekiel 47, Zechariah 14:16-20, Revelation 11:15-18).

Hebrews 10:27-28
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

The first time He came to be a sin offering. His appearing is post-tribulational (Matthew 24:29-30). This would have been a great place in Scripture to add a third time, if there was one.

 

[SkyWriting]

1-You will not believe what is written in your Bible.

The scripture was written, edited, and approved by sinners.

8 I will cleanse them from all their iniquity by which they have sinned against Me, and I will pardon all their iniquities by which they have sinned against Me and by which they have transgressed against Me.

 

[Luke17:37]

The scripture was written, edited, and approved by sinners.

8 I will cleanse them from all their iniquity by which they have sinned against Me, and I will pardon all their iniquities by which they have sinned against Me and by which they have transgressed against Me.

Sinners held the pens, but the Holy Spirit wrote the Word (2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 1:19-21). There's no been no human editing of any sort (Matthew 5:18)--the LORD preserves His Word.

 

[SkyWriting]

Sinners held the pens, but the Holy Spirit wrote the Word (2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 1:19-21). There's no been no human editing of any sort (Matthew 5:18)--the LORD preserves His Word.

Are you thinking that written scripture is "law"?

New International Version
For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

New Living Translation
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God's law will disappear until its purpose is achieved.

English Standard Version
For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Berean Study Bible
For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Berean Literal Bible
For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth shall pass away, not even one iota, nor one stroke of a letter, shall pass away from the law, until everything should happen.

New American Standard Bible
"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

King James Bible
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For I assure you: Until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or one stroke of a letter will pass from the law until all things are accomplished.

 

[SkyWriting]

Sinners held the pens, but the Holy Spirit wrote the Word (2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 1:19-21). There's no been no human editing of any sort (Matthew 5:18)--the LORD preserves His Word.

I agree that
"16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is useful...."
and I agree that you are not a prophet.

 

[Luke17:37]

I agree that
"16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is useful...."
and I agree that you are not a prophet.

Let's leave me out of this. You don't know me; we're talking about Scripture, not spiritual gifts. You suggested before that sinful men edited the Scriptures, which is wrong.

 

[SkyWriting]

Let's leave me out of this. You don't know me; we're talking about Scripture, not spiritual gifts. You suggested before that sinful men edited the Scriptures, which is wrong.

I covered the editing, and each of your quotes cover seperate issues.
They don't all sooup together and show that scripture is perfect.
Though I support that the message gets through anyway so the
scriptures are covering a flawless topic, but in a purposely
flawed manner with multiple voices and points of view.

You can't support the synoptic gospels and also claim the
story is not edited by the flawed authors each telling a less
than perfect story, from God's mouth.