Rapture timing

[Straightshot]

What does "out of the earth" mean ?

 

[Riberra]

What does "out of the earth" mean ?

Not being on the surface of Planet Earth but in the third heaven where God reside.

 

[Straightshot]

"Based on the pre-tribulation rapture false doctrine it means:/ "being taken out of the Earth to Heaven before the Tribulation."


Before the tribulation, yes

.... taken out of the earth? .... no

I don't think your understand the conditions and environment of human immortality

 

[Riberra]

"Based on the pre-tribulation rapture false doctrine it means:/ "being taken out of the Earth to Heaven before the Tribulation."


Before the tribulation, yes

You cannot provide even ONE verse (from the Bible) saying that the resurrection and our gathering to meet Jesus in the AIR will happen before the tribulation.The Bible say UNTO the Coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

.... taken out of the earth? .... no

I don't think your understand the conditions and environment of human immortality

I said that this is the definition based on the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine.
So, you agree with me that at the resurrection and our changing into immortality the Church will not be taken to Heaven,but will stay on the Earth to reign with Jesus ...Is that correct ?

 

[Bible2+]

Straightshot said in post 675:

No man has gone to heaven [the immortal state of existence] except for the One who has come down from heaven to this very day .... and none will .... until [1 Corinthians 15:20-23]

Do you mean that the rapture will take believers into the 3rd heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:2b)? If so, note that no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the 1st heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

-

There are 3 heavens (2 Corinthians 12:2b). The 1st heaven is the sky, the atmosphere, in which the birds fly (Genesis 1:20b). The 2nd heaven is outer space, where the sun, moon, and stars reside (Deuteronomy 4:19). Where God resides is the 3rd heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b, Revelation 4:1-2), and so it is beyond outer space, in the sense of it being in a higher (i.e. a 4th) spatial dimension. And it is a physical place, for Jesus ascended there in his physical resurrection body (Acts 1:9-11, Luke 24:39). And Paul said that he could have visited there in his physical body (2 Corinthians 12:2). Also, Elijah and Enoch were taken up there in their physical bodies (2 Kings 2:11, Genesis 5:24, Hebrews 11:5). And the 2 witnesses will be taken up there in their physical bodies (Revelation 11:11-12).

In the 3rd heaven, there is currently a literal city 1,500 miles cubed (Revelation 21:16), which is called New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:2), the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22), the Jerusalem which is above (Galatians 4:26), and the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3). In the future, God will create a new earth (a new surface of the earth) and a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new atmosphere for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will come down in New Jerusalem from the 3rd heaven to the new earth to live with people on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-3, Revelation 3:12b). It is New Jerusalem which has the literal pearly gates and streets of gold (Revelation 21:21) which people ascribe to heaven. So what people think of as heaven, in the sense of living in bliss with God, will eventually be on the new earth.

Currently, the 3rd heaven is where paradise is (2 Corinthians 12:2,4). And paradise is where believers go when they die (Luke 23:43,46). So believers go to the 3rd heaven when they die. Also, paradise is where the literal tree of life is (Revelation 2:7). And the tree of life is in New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:2). So when people go to paradise, they go to New Jerusalem.

The earth's 3rd heaven could be high above the north pole (cf. the connection between heaven and the north in Isaiah 14:13, KJV). Regarding what we today call "the northern lights", even though they can been explained by physics, they could still point to the location of the glory of the earth's 3rd heaven. And Psalm 48:2's reference to the north could refer to the location of New Jerusalem in heaven.

Straightshot said in post 675:

No man has gone to heaven [the immortal state of existence] except for the One who has come down from heaven to this very day .... and none will .... until [1 Corinthians 15:20-23]

Regarding 1 Corinthians 15:20-23, note that the 3 stages of a harvest are firstfruits, main harvest, and gleaning, which can typify 3 physical resurrections: 1. the past, firstfruits physical resurrection of Jesus only (1 Corinthians 15:20,23, Luke 24:39); 2. the future physical resurrection of the entire church at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Romans 8:23-25), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31), and right before the millennium (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6); and then 3. the physical resurrection of everyone else at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), which will occur sometime after the millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

 

[Straightshot]

"Do you mean that the rapture will take believers into the 3rd heaven"


No .... the purpose of the Lord's call is to make one immortal

There will be no boundaries for one who is made immortal .... and taken "up" means to a higher state of being .... there is no "up" or "down" in the Lord's universe, but only in relation to the positional gravitational attraction of a material body like the earth

.... what is up on one side is down on the other .... the immortal human will have no positional limitations

You can argue until you are blue in the face, but you cannot remove the Lord's promise on the matter of this thread [Revelation 3:10]

And if you are against participation .... you will not participate

Only those who have kept the truth will have the privilege of the experience

Revelation
3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

[Riberra]

"Do you mean that the rapture will take believers into the 3rd heaven"


No .... the purpose of the Lord's call is to make one immortal

There will be no boundaries for one who is made immortal .... and taken "up" means to a higher state of being .... there is no "up" or "down" in the Lord's universe, but only in relation to the positional gravitational attraction of a material body like the earth

.... what is up on one side is down on the other .... the immortal human will have no positional limitations

At the resurrection we will have a physical immortal body who will need to breath air....we will not have a body like the angels...the only thing similar to the angels is that we will not be able to reproduce when we will receive immortality.

You can argue until you are blue in the face, but you cannot remove the Lord's promise on the matter of this thread [Revelation 3:10]

And if you are against participation .... you will not participate

Only those who have kept the truth will have the privilege of the experience

Revelation
3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.[

Revelation 3:10 is not even about the resurrection.
As Bible2+have pointed out ,Revelation 3:10 have been fulfilled nearly 2,000 years ago...the Church of Phyladelphia who existed in a Roman province in the time of the Apostles have not experienced the terrible persecusion and killing at the hand of the Roman Empire.[/QUOTE]

 

[Straightshot]

You and B2 are both flat wrong .... the letters to the 7 assemblies are still valid today, and for the divides of the professing church today just as then .... nothing has changed

The Lord's view is still the same and specifically with regard for His promise to keep living believers from His coming wrath and judgment still pending .... it was then, and still is as we speak .... has not come

He then proceeds to tell of the apostate condition of professing Christianity and how He will deal with those who profess and are not

 

[Riberra]

You and B2 are both flat wrong .... the letters to the 7 assemblies are still valid today, and for the divides of the professing church today just as then .... nothing has changed

The Lord's view is still the same and specifically with regard for His promise to keep living believers from His coming wrath and judgment still pending .... it was then, and still is as we speak .... has not come

The hour of temptation is not the wrath of God....that is not God who will try us....but Satan.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation,which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.[

He then proceeds to tell of the apostate condition of professing Christianity and how He will deal with those who profess and are not

The professing Church are those who promote and believe another Gospel that the Gospel that Jesus and the apostles preached....Jesus Save our soul (Salvation) at the condition that we remain faithfull to Him till the End.

The pre-tribulation rapture New Age religion preach that Jesus will save our flesh and blood body before the tribulation.

 

[keras]

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation,which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

This is referring to the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, the wrath of God and the Lamb, that will fall upon every person living on earth at that time. Luke 21:34-35

It is plain rubbish to hang a theory like the 'rapture to heaven of living people' on this verse. The word translated 'keep' there, is 'terio ek' that means kept out of, not removed from.
Many prophesies say how the Lord will protect, shelter, or divert His wrath from His own. Isaiah 43:2, Zephaniah 2:3

Straightshot, saying that those who challenge your beliefs are 'flat wrong', is very arrogant and shows your inability to discuss issues rationally. I suggest to you that you pull back from posting here for a while, your determined attempts to promote what you think is right, puts you at risk of the warning in James 3:1. Join your fellow 'ticket to heaven' believers at the Rapture Forum.

 

[Straightshot]

"I suggest to you that you pull back from posting here for a while"


And I will tell you that I post when and where ever I want .... got it?

 

[keras]

And I will tell you that I post when and where ever I want .... got it?

Sure, just continue to make yourself look foolish, promoting unsupportable fables and saying those who disagree with you will go to the other place.

 

[Bible2+]

Straightshot said in post 686:

.... the purpose of the Lord's call is to make one immortal

Note that the purpose of the rapture (the catching up) isn't to change the bodies of living believers into immortal bodies, but to "catch up" both their changed bodies and the just-resurrected bodies of dead believers (of all times) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). The changed, living believers will be raptured (caught up) "together with them" (1 Thessalonians 4:17), that is, together with the just-resurrected dead believers (1 Thessalonians 4:16b-17).

Straightshot said in post 686:

There will be no boundaries for one who is made immortal .... and taken "up" means to a higher state of being .... there is no "up" or "down" in the Lord's universe, but only in relation to the positional gravitational attraction of a material body like the earth

Note that there doesn't have to be an "up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17's original Greek for it to mean "up", for the clouds and the air are up. 1 Thessalonians 4:17's original Greek word (harpazo: G0726) translated as "caught up" can also be used to refer to people being taken where God's throne is (Revelation 12:5), which is "up" in heaven (Revelation 4:1-2), just as the 2 witnesses will ascend "up" to heaven (Revelation 11:12).

Straightshot said in post 686:

.... what is up on one side is down on the other ....

Note that the rapture is not just a catching up, but also a gathering together to Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1). That is, the rapture will take believers straight up into the sky wherever they are on the earth's surface. But this will be thousands of different places in the sky (the 1st heaven), all around the globe. So then they will need to be gathered together by angels (Mark 13:27; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where Jesus will be, above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). For example, if a believer is raptured into the sky above New Zealand, he will then need to be led by an angel over oceans and continents until he arrives above Jerusalem.

So this is one purpose for the rapture: to get believers from all around the globe into one place in the sky above Jerusalem, to meet with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17b).

A 2nd purpose will be so that the church can then be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the church can then be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), in the sky, before Jesus descends to wage war against the armies of the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21).

 

[Straightshot]

"Note that the purpose of the rapture (the catching up) isn't to change the bodies of living believers into immortal bodies"


It is exactly the purpose [1 Corinthians 15:51-58]

Why to you refute the truth about this matter?

I know why .... but tell the forum

 

[Riberra]

"Note that the purpose of the rapture (the catching up) isn't to change the bodies of living believers into immortal bodies"


It is exactly the purpose [1 Corinthians 15:51-58]

Why to you refute the truth about this matter?

I know why .... but tell the forum

Do you see a rapture mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 ?
This is the resurrection of the dead believers and the changing of the believers still alive who will happen in a twinkle of eyes.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJV which is a sister passage written by Paul explain what will happen after our changing into immortality.
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

-The rapture (caught up to meet Jesus in the AIR)is the tertiary event that will happen after the changing into immortality of the believers unto the APPEARING of Jesus in Glory....

-The primary event will be the Coming of Jesus as a thief Revelation 16:15 /who will shorten the days of the reign of the Beast/ and the changing into immortality of the dead believers and the believers still alive and REMAIN which is our blessed hope.
Titus 2:13 KJV
Looking for that blessed hope (our changing into immortality), and the GLORIOUS appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

 

[Straightshot]

Do you see a rapture mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 ?

No doubt

 

[Riberra]

Do you see a rapture mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 ?

No doubt

-The changing into immortality of the believers does not mean that they will be taken to the THIRD HEAVEN where God reside.
-AND NOTHING in the text say that the changing into immortality of the believers will happen before the tribulation

 

[Straightshot]

You do not understand the condition of immortality

Once made immortal a man is not restrained to the material world or time passing

There is a barrier between the material world and the state of eternal immortality that a mortal man cannot breach

"Heaven" is not up, or down .... it is present and everywhere .... the mortal man just cannot interact with it

The Lord demonstrated this truth after His resurrection by appearing and disappearing at will from place to place

"Up" is used to describe immortality as a higher level of existence .... and the changing from the mortal to the immortal will take place in the twinkling of an eye .... the time of the Lord's "snatching" of His true ecclesia just before He brings His judgment upon a mortal world of unbelief

.... as it was in the days of Noah .... so shall this be when the Lord comes to "snatch" .... His first action of "the day of the Lord"

 

[Riberra]

You do not understand the condition of immortality

Once made immortal a man is not restrained to the material world or time passing

There is a barrier between the material world and the state of eternal immortality that a mortal man cannot breach

The Bible say that the believers will be resurrected in a physical immortal (incorruptible) body...not in a body like the angels have.

 

[Job8]

Do you see a rapture mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 ?

No. But you do see a resurrection mentioned in 1 Thess 4. And God does expect us to use our heads and draw logical conclusions.