Gal 4 "under the Law" vs "under Grace" in Romans 6 and not sinning

[BABerean2]

More in the OP that has probably not been quoted 20 times yet.

=============================

Rom 9
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

1 John 3:4 - "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" both in OT and also by NT standards

So then in Rom 6 Paul speaks about the obligation not to SIN - even though not "under the law" -- not under the condemnation of the LAW.

Rom 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered

1 john 2:1 "these things I write to you that you sin NOT"

The Covenant at Sinai with Israel included
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

And 40 years later Moses reminds them --
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5

Christ continues to affirm them in Matt 22 , pre-cross - the Law of Moses upheld.

So then why is Paul associating Sinai with the old covenant in Gal 4?

Because the ceremonial law is no longer in effect.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" as compared to the ceremonial laws such as circumcision - as we see in this example from 1Cor 7:19

This came from a friend of mine.
It does reveal parts of the Mosaic Law not normally considered today.


On her radio show, Dr. Laura said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under...any circumstance. The following response is an open letter to Dr. Schlesinger, written by a US man, and posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as quite informative:
Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

Lev 25:44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

Exo 21:7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev 15:19 And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.
Lev 15:20 And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean.
Lev 15:21 And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
Lev 15:22 And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even.
Lev 15:23 And if it be on her bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even.
Lev 15:24 And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

Lev 1:9 But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

Exo 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

Lev 11:10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

Lev 21:20 Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

Lev 19:27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

Lev 11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
Lev 11:7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.
Lev 11:8 Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Lev 20:14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I'm confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your adoring fan,

James M. Kauffman
,
Ed.D. Professor Emeritus,

Dept. Of Curriculum, Instruction, and Special Education West Virginia University

.

 

[1John2:4]

2 Peter 14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the graceand knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

 

[bugkiller]

<snip>

Cross posted spam I already responded to.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

<snip>

More of the same.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

You are skipping over details ... coming to false conclusions -- ignoring the points in the texts given. So then.. a problem in all your conclusions is much expected - and no surprise.

No he isn't skipping over any details.

For example -
Acts 15:1-2 entirely glossed over in your reference
Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question

meanwhile you won't post he text that these certain people are mentioned n v 5 as Pharisees. Details remember.

You also won't mention v 24. Why is this?

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

1. - a made up rule - not at all found in the OT -- but you apparently did not wish to quote it.
2. Solution included the letter sent out AND this observation - Acts 15:21 " Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Sorry but tis wasn't in the letter according to the chapter in discussion.

Gentiles hear the Gospel "Every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4

So what. Explain how that manse obligation of the Christian.

Gentiles hear the Gospel in the synagogue Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath Acts 17:4.

So...

Gentiles hear the Gospel in the synagogue - Sabbath after Sabbath - Acts 13.

So...

And of course in Acts 15 - nothing at all about "do not take God's name in vain", nor "Love God with all your heart" nor "Do not covet" nor "Honor your father and mother".... All of which - like the Sabbath in Hebrews 4 and Isaiah 66:23 remain for NT saints.

So...

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I may not have quoted this from Gal 4 twenty times by now - please help me not forget to do it - if I forget in the future.

==============================

The term "under the LAW" in Gal 4 -- in its most favorable light - means under the obligation of the ceremonial law apart from faith. But in general Paul uses the term with respect to condemnation under the moral of God without the Gospel benefit of salvation.

How do you arrive at that conclusion?[/quote]

The end of Galatians 4 is not about condemning the Word of God in the OT - it is the use of an allegory to demonstrate that the LAW of God is not a second-gospel a competing-gospel and never was. Period.[/quote]Does this really show that you believe the law to be the Gospel? I sure think it does. I agree that he law which was before the law isn't a second gospel or even a gospel at all.

Gal 4
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?

<Paul is not saying "tell me you want want to affirm scripture - the Word of God -- how dare you not condemn scripture" > Rather Paul is addressing those who want to use the Law as a gospel.

You do not listen to the law.

Gal 4
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written,

“Rejoice, barren woman who does not bear;
Break forth and shout, you who are not in labor;
For more numerous are the children of the desolate
Than of the one who has a husband.”

NOTE: "Jerusalem above" was there in both OT and NT times. This is not a condemnation of the OT text of scripture. In fact it is in the OT that we find the NEW Covenant "I will write My LAWS on their heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33 - what is more "for it is written" is a reference to the still-authoritative OT text - as scripture.

So use a partial quote to promote an untruth. Way to go. The truth needs no partial quote.

Gal 4
28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say?

Are you born to and of the Spirit or the law? If the Spirit why aren't you being led by that Spirit? Gal 5:18

“Cast out the bondwoman and her son,
For the son of the bondwoman shall not be an heir with the son of the free woman.”

Yes cast out the bondwoman (Covenant issued at Sinai). That covenant isn't the or a covenant of promise.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

Yeppers!!

NOTE: "Him who is born of the Spirit" is the same pre-cross teaching we see from Christ in John 3 - speaking to Nicodemus. Far from being a condemnation of pre-cross teaching - it affirms it.

How is that teaching the law?

bugkiller

 

[Travis93]

Luke 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested on the sabbath according to the commandment.

There, proof the sabbath commandment was still in effect after Jesus died.

 

[bugkiller]

Luke 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested on the sabbath according to the commandment.

There, proof the sabbath commandment was still in effect after Jesus died.

NOPE! Who were these people? What was their custom? Did they really comprehend what happened? What was the prophesy concerning this event?

bugkiller

 

[Travis93]

NOPE! Who were these people? What was their custom? Did they really comprehend what happened? What was the prophesy concerning this event?

bugkiller

Luke 23:55 says they were women who followed Joseph, their custom was to follow the everlasting commandment of God. They were smart enough to realize nothing will change God's commanded holy day seeing as God said it was perpetual and forever in Exodus 31:16-17. As far as prophesies, Isaiah 66:23 and Ezekiel 46:3 indicate the sabbath in the future.

 

[disciple1]

That verse proves all the more that we should keep it. Notice it says let no man judge you. God himself is going to judge you for it since he's the one who created the law, not man. If anything, that verse means don't let unbelievers judge you for keeping God's laws.

Romans chapter 6
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[Bob S]

Where did Paul get his information the the law ended at Calvary? Where did he get his information that the 10 commandments were temporary laws. Where did John get his information that we are living according to how Jesus would have us live if we believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us?

I don't believe that those who witnessed Jesus death understood all the ramifications of that moment He later revealed to the Apostles. I certainly would not hang my hat on the fact that Mary, Martha and all the other followers of Jesus observed the Sabbath, so I should too. For some reason Paul observed days that were ordained only for Israel. He certainly didn't write anything that would indicate Christians should follow what he did. All men are this side of eternity, we do things others do not understand. I give Paul the benefit of the doubt concerning his worship experience.

 

[BABerean2]

Here Paul makes is clear that he was not under the Law of Moses.

1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

.

 

[disciple1]

Here Paul makes is clear that he was not under the Law of Moses.

1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

.

We're not under any law.
Galatians chapter 5 verse 6
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.
Romans chapter 9 verses 30-Romans chapter 10 verse 4
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written: See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame. Brothers my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are Zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own the did not submit to God's righteousness, Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Romans chapter 6
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[Bob S]

We're not under any law.
Galatians chapter 5 verse 6
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.
Romans chapter 9 verses 30-Romans chapter 10 verse 4
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written: See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame. Brothers my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are Zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own the did not submit to God's righteousness, Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

I understand where you are coming from. Yes, we are saved by Grace not the works of the law. Yet John has written that we do have commandments that we are to live by. If I am not wrong commandments are mandates. We are committed to these laws and do them out of pure love. They are not salvational, but they sure are a testimony of of those who do and those who don't observe them. One big difference in our laws verses the old covenant laws is Torah could be done out of duty and never out of love and still fulfill the command.

 

[disciple1]

I understand where you are coming from. Yes, we are saved by Grace not the works of the law. Yet John has written that we do have commandments that we are to live by. If I am not wrong commandments are mandates. We are committed to these laws and do them out of pure love. They are not salvational, but they sure are a testimony of of those who do and those who don't observe them. One big difference in our laws verses the old covenant laws is Torah could be done out of duty and never out of love and still fulfill the command.

1 Corinthians chapter 15 verse 56
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.

 

[BobRyan]

I understand where you are coming from. Yes, we are saved by Grace not the works of the law. Yet John has written that we do have commandments that we are to live by. If I am not wrong commandments are mandates. .

That part is certainly true --

Which is why we find this in the Bible --

the Sabbath is BINDING on both Jews and also gentile believers. True? -- Let's answer the question "sola scriptura" and in so doing -- return to the actual subject of the thread.

In the OT Isaiah 66:23 states explicitly that the Sabbath applies to "All mankind" in Is 66:23
In Gen 2:1-3 the Sabbath applies to "All mankind" -- Adam and Eve.
In Mark 2:27 the Sabbath applies to "All mankind" -- "The Sabbath was made for mankind"
In Rev 14:7 it is all mankind that is called to worship God who "created the heavens and the earth the seas and the springs of water" - a quote from the Sabbath commandment
in Heb 4 "There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people God" actually quotes the Sabbath Commandment and says it 'remains' just as it was in Psalms 95.
In Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus".
In 56:1-8 the Gentiles are singled out and specifically blessed for keeping the weekly Sabbath.
James 2 points specifically to the TEN Commandments and says that the common element that would make us "guilty of all" is based on "He who said" -- and as it turns out God said all ten of them not just nine.
In Eph 6:2 - the entire unit of TEN is being identified when the text says "Honor thy father and mother for this is the FIRST commandment with a promise" -- that requires a specific unit of Law -- and is only true of the TEN.
Ex 20:8-11 it is BOTH Israel AND the gentile that "stays within their gates" that is bound to keep the Sabbath.
In Acts 18:4 both Gentiles AND Jews are worshiping "every Sabbath" so also in Acts 17:1-4 so also in Acts 13.

 

[BobRyan]

UOTE="BobRyan, post: 69860545, member: 235244"]More in the OP that has probably not been quoted 20 times yet.

=============================

Rom 9
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

1 John 3:4 - "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" both in OT and also by NT standards

So then in Rom 6 Paul speaks about the obligation not to SIN - even though not "under the law" -- not under the condemnation of the LAW.

Rom 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered

1 john 2:1 "these things I write to you that you sin NOT"

The Covenant at Sinai with Israel included
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

And 40 years later Moses reminds them --
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5

Christ continues to affirm them in Matt 22 , pre-cross - the Law of Moses upheld.

So then why is Paul associating Sinai with the old covenant in Gal 4?

Because the ceremonial law is no longer in effect.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" as compared to the ceremonial laws such as circumcision - as we see in this example from 1Cor 7:19[/QUOTE]

This came from a friend of mine.
It does reveal parts of the Mosaic Law not normally considered today.


On her radio show, Dr. Laura said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under...any circumstance. The following response is an open letter to Dr. Schlesinger, written by a US man, and posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as quite informative:
Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

Thank you for sharing that.

The person writing in to the radio program goes on to mock the Bible when possible... I leave that to those who enjoy it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Here Paul makes is clear that he was not under the Law of Moses.

1Co 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

.

1 Cor 7:19 'what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith?? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31
"NEW Covenant ... I will write MY LAW on their heart and mind" Hebrews 8:6-10

 

[disciple1]

1 Cor 7:19 'what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"
"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith?? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31
"NEW Covenant ... I will write MY LAW on their heart and mind" Hebrews 8:6-10

You don't obey the law and you don't understand.
Romans chapter 6
14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[bugkiller]

Luke 23:55 says they were women who followed Joseph, their custom was to follow the everlasting commandment of God. They were smart enough to realize nothing will change God's commanded holy day seeing as God said it was perpetual and forever in Exodus 31:16-17. As far as prophesies, Isaiah 66:23 and Ezekiel 46:3 indicate the sabbath in the future.

They were Jews. And most if not all Jews kept the 7th day Sabbath.

bugkiller