What about the rest of us?

[gord44]

But just to be clear Buddhism will not 'save you ' at the End .

I'm just headed to the Pureland good sir. As I have told others, once I get there and have been a Buddha for a bit ill go find Fizz and we will be reborn as bodahistas and come help save all our wayward Christian friends from CF so they can escape the samsara like we did! Who knows, by then you might have already been reborn several times and practiced the nembutsu and already safe in Amida's vow!

 

[Albion]

I quoted from the NT, the words that we are chosen before the foundation of the world. I accept that it is all about interpretation, and yes, I chose the interpretation given by Calvin. How would you interpret them?

But as I see it you are consistently ignoring the point I am making, that in many ways "free will" is a red herring as far as "salvation" is concerned. That we make choices, that we experience ourselves as making them is not in dispute.

This is about the CAUSAL BASIS Of "salvation".

Here is Thomas Merton......

The reification of faith. Real meaning of the phrase we are saved by faith = we are saved by Christ, whom we encounter in faith. But constant disputation about faith has made Christians become obsessed with faith almost as an object, at least as an experience, a "thing" and in concentrating upon it they lose sight of Christ. Whereas faith without the encounter with Christ and without His presence is less than nothing. It is the deadest of dead works, an act elicited in a moral and existential void. To seek to believe that one believes, and arbitrarily to decree that one believes, and then to conclude that this gymnastic has been blessed by Christ - this is pathological Christianity. And a Christianity of works. One has this mental gymnastic in which to trust. One is safe, one possesses the psychic key to salvation......

I do appreciate that such words do not prove anything at all. But it would seem to me, if one recognises the Word of God as that which lights ALL who come into the world, as that through Whom ALL things are made (as said in St John's Gospel) then the "presence of Christ" spreads far wider than mere allegiance to, and acknowledgement of the Biblical word, and "accepting" it.

The message of Grace can be found in all faiths, at all times, in all places.......for those with ears to hear and eyes to see. And such is a gift, pure and simple....

The "encounter with Christ" is beyond creeds and formulas.




I find your words astonishing. What is the OT but the hand of God reaching out to the Jewish people? What is the Koran but another sign of God's hand reaching out? And here are the words of Guru Nanak of the Sikh Faith...."By God's grace alone is God to be grasped. All else is false, all else is vanity." And here the words of a Hindu......."They who have known God have known also this one certainty; that it was God's grace that led them to it, and framed them in readiness for it, and prepared their heart and mind for it; and it was God alone who lifted them to that embrace." (Swami Abhayananda)

Surely you must see the "hand of God" reaching to such human beings? As I see it, "other great religious systems" are maybe more inclined to emphasise the experience of the Divine rather than "belief" in God as such.

It is truly sad that many seem desperate to protect the uniqueness of their own creed and formulas. Fundamentally they are turning the strong hand of God that can and does reach all, that can speak in infinite tongues (mixing the metaphor a bit......) to infinite people, into a rather limp arm.

Maybe the point here is that you have decided to identify Christianity with one or two particular concepts and so have latched, almost at random, onto something you found in various Christian writers, etc. in order to prove that whatever slant you are interested in defines Christianity.

Then you throw it up to us and ask us to defend it or deny it or whatever else you want to tell us about our own faith.

Well, that does NOT define Christianity, although I'm getting the feeling that nothing can dissuade you from the definition of the Christian religion that you've chosen to believe in.

 

[dlamberth]

The "encounter with Christ" is beyond creeds and formulas.

This!!! ^^^
...a million times over!!!

 

[nightflight]

Those of a heavily negative personality and lifestyle will find themselves in the hellish realms.

That's me.

 

[gord44]

That's me.

You're all good then. Amida doesn't care if you're negative. He understands your karma and will still take you to the Pureland. It would be better for you of course if you could be more positive, as it would lead to a better life, but one cannot judge another's path and karma as Amida does not judge us.

 

[Fizzywig]

It's a shame that you never really knew Christ and His plan for us ,but then so few if any do .I see hope for you, and one day you will be a Christian ,and a real one .

Amida has already seen my potential.

 

[Fizzywig]

I'm just headed to the Pureland good sir. As I have told others, once I get there and have been a Buddha for a bit ill go find Fizz and we will be reborn as bodahistas and come help save all our wayward Christian friends from CF so they can escape the samsara like we did! Who knows, by then you might have already been reborn several times and practiced the nembutsu and already safe in Amida's vow!

I'll be behind the second lotus blossom, just after the avenue of Cherry trees.

 

[dlamberth]

Maybe the point here is that you have decided to identify Christianity with one or two particular concepts and so have latched, almost at random, onto something you found in various Christian writers, etc. in order to prove that whatever slant you are interested in defines Christianity.

My highlighting of the word "concept" to make the point that what I see Fizzy trying to say is that any true relationship with God is not a "concept". It's way beyond that. I think your missing that piece in what he's saying and the quotes he's giving. There's truth in the reach of God's grace which is not bounded by personal beliefs, concepts or ideology. God is simply too big to fit into any single religion.

 

[Fizzywig]

Maybe the point here is that you have decided to identify Christianity with one or two particular concepts and so have latched, almost at random, onto something you found in various Christian writers, etc. in order to prove that whatever slant you are interested in defines Christianity.

Then you throw it up to us and ask us to defend it or deny it or whatever else you want to tell us about our own faith.

Well, that does NOT define Christianity, although I'm getting the feeling that nothing can dissuade you from the definition of the Christian religion that you've chosen to believe in.

Thank you. Maybe nothing will dissuade you from your understanding of Christianity.

Yet you offer absolutely nothing in defence of it and choose instead to cast aspersions upon me.

Your choice.

(Just to add that I am a Pure Land Buddhist. I do not "believe" in Christianity at all. Pure Land Buddhism, as I have argued here, and explained why, understands the full meaning of grace and all its implications)

 

[dlamberth]

It's a shame that you never really knew Christ and His plan for us ,but then so few if any do .I see hope for you, and one day you will be a Christian ,and a real one .

Interesting comment, in my communications with Fizzy, I had just the opposite impression, that he very much does know Christ. But I see him arguing that the presence of Christ is beyond any beliefs or dogma of any religion. Where Christianity lost me was in the focused extent of Christ with in a single being at the expense of and loss of a cosmic wide experience of Christ through out and within the universe and all there is. God's grace is not bounded by beliefs, ideology or anything for that matter. Generally, I've found that Christians have a hard time understanding or appreciating that kind of spiritual experience of Christ that is not bounded or focused on a single being.

 

[Fizzywig]

Then you throw it up to us and ask us to defend it or deny it or whatever else you want to tell us about our own faith.

This is called "Interfaith Dialogue". I am inviting others to engage in this.

Thank you.

 

[Fizzywig]

That's me.

Sorry, we seem to have forgotten the OP that started all this. I'm assuming a bit of depression/anxiety involved. (Maybe I'm wrong?)

Remembering back to when I was suffering from depression, I took part in a few group sessions with other sufferers. Some told me that they had always been depresed, had never kniwn anything else - it just varied in intensity. I was always grateful that in the main I had always been a contented, even a happy person - give or take certain episodes and events that I suppose we all go through at times. Which was why the depression hit me so hard - yet I knew that there was another way of experiencing my life. Which others, unfortunately did not.

Have you always been in "hellish realms"?

I did start meditating at the time, just the "concentrate on the breath" type, nothing profound. But I did stick at it for 15 years or so. It does have benefits, or so I found. But such benefits are slow and gradual, not an instant fix.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yeah, people usually don't choose the 'instant fix' - it costs too much.....

 

[Commander]

Those of us who are screw ups, thrown about by the waves of our passions, incorrigible, filled with bitterness and even hate; what is to come of us? We who may have an interest in spiritual things, aware of a transcending reality and goodness, but not only fail to reach it, but fail to even try. Are we doomed to whatever hell your various faiths have? Is God, Brahma, Allah, Amida going to save us anyway? Or is it the pit for us?

We of the Bad want to know.

The verse of Romans 5:18 states : Therefore as by the offence of one(Adam) judgment came upon all(everyone) men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one(Jesus Christ) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. The verse of Luke 16:16 states that " every man presses into the kingdom of God.

 

[Fizzywig]

Yeah, people usually don't choose the 'instant fix' - it costs too much.....

Hi, in context I was speaking to nightflight about a simple form of Buddhist meditation.

If you wish to allude to the "fix" offered by the hand of grace, yes, it does indeed "cost" everything.

Even poets see this........"a condition of complete simplicity, costing not less than everything" writes T S Eliot in Four Quartets, who knew his Christian mystics, as well as many Buddhist teachings.

Perhaps you should seek to address a few Christians on these forums who seem rather resistant to the whole idea?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Perhaps you should seek to address a few Christians on these forums who seem rather resistant to the whole idea?

Been 'doing' that for years , many years on and offline(in person) - not many of anybody want to do what Jesus says -
only those who already have , in the past, given their lives entirely to Him....

 

[Robban]

Interesting comment, in my communications with Fizzy, I had just the opposite impression, that he very much does know Christ. But I see him arguing that the presence of Christ is beyond any beliefs or dogma of any religion. Where Christianity lost me was in the focused extent of Christ with in a single being at the expense of and loss of a cosmic wide experience of Christ through out and within the universe and all there is. God's grace is not bounded by beliefs, ideology or anything for that matter. Generally, I've found that Christians have a hard time understanding or appreciating that kind of spiritual experience of Christ that is not bounded or focused on a single being.

But, does not "Christ" come from the Greek "Christos"?

Meaning annointed, that,s what I thought.

From what I have seen in the NT in the beginning it was called "Way"

Those that had the experience of being "touched" were said to have been annointed,

Only later were they called "Christians", maybe in a mocking way, IDK.

The spirit of God that hovered over the Deep is the spirit of the Messiah,

What I'm wondering is, where does "Christ" fit in in your view,

Why not, "Spirit of God"?

A queery from a puzzled listener , so back to our panel in the studio.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Only later were they called "Christians", maybe in a mocking way, IDK.

I sort of expect you have heard before , as many who looked for the Truth have,
yes,
they were being mocked for being 'christian', it was an attempted derogatory term, along with and/or meaning "simpleton" (almost "you fools")
because the believers immersed in Jesus Name were so guileless , so simple minded in their lives, they would speak only the truth, even if it meant great loss to them(including their lives), and they would not even try to defend themselves from attack even unto death.
Gradually , (or quickly) , the people who became known as 'christians' changed by law and by other pressures and perspectives, to mean anyone who was within constantines power and control - they either became 'christian' , or were killed, or became slaves or exiled. So then a lot of "new" 'christians' were no longer 'simpleminded' nor 'simple' nor 'simpletons',
but because they "had" to be 'christian' in order to live,
they said they were, and set about infiltrating and sabotaging/changing the already legalistic leadership control into something "more to their own liking" so to speak.... and thus the same Jews who were of the nature to hate Jesus the Messiah began to
alter the course of history by changing what 'christendom' was ...... and obviously not in line with Scripture.

 

[Robban]

I sort of expect you have heard before , as many who looked for the Truth have,
yes,
they were being mocked for being 'christian', it was an attempted derogatory term, along with and/or meaning "simpleton" (almost "you fools")
because the believers immersed in Jesus Name were so guileless , so simple minded in their lives, they would speak only the truth, even if it meant great loss to them(including their lives), and they would not even try to defend themselves from attack even unto death.
Gradually , (or quickly) , the people who became known as 'christians' changed by law and by other pressures and perspectives, to mean anyone who was within constantines power and control - they either became 'christian' , or were killed, or became slaves or exiled. So then a lot of "new" 'christians' were no longer 'simpleminded' nor 'simple' nor 'simpletons',
but because they "had" to be 'christian' in order to live,
they said they were, and set about infiltrating and sabotaging/changing the already legalistic leadership control into something "more to their own liking" so to speak.... and thus the same Jews who were of the nature to hate Jesus the Messiah began to
alter the course of history by changing what 'christendom' was ...... and obviously not in line with Scripture.

Thanks,

 

[Albion]

Thank you. Maybe nothing will dissuade you from your understanding of Christianity.

Well, it certainly won't be a quotation here or there from Thomas Merton or John Calvin. Nor will it be because someone likes--or dislikes--freewill.

There's much more to the faith than the stuff that's been posted here so far. As a matter of fact, I didn't think converting one of us to the other's religion was at all what this was going to be about when I replied to the idea that Christianity is distinctive among the world's great religions because of its understanding of the relationship between God and Man.