What about the rest of us?

[fat wee robin]

Interesting comment, in my communications with Fizzy, I had just the opposite impression, that he very much does know Christ. But I see him arguing that the presence of Christ is beyond any beliefs or dogma of any religion. Where Christianity lost me was in the focused extent of Christ with in a single being at the expense of and loss of a cosmic wide experience of Christ through out and within the universe and all there is. God's grace is not bounded by beliefs, ideology or anything for that matter. Generally, I've found that Christians have a hard time understanding or appreciating that kind of spiritual experience of Christ that is not bounded or focused on a single being.

Sorry but you too ,are wrong .There is only One christ ,and although most christians
stick to what they know in the written bible ,they are correct in believing there is only one way to life eternal and that is through Jesus .
However not everything is in the Written bible ,and there is a reason for this .The reason being that if people who were not yet 'saved ' become distracted from the 'narrow path' of Jesus words ,then they would or could be lost ,like you are .
If I need to go to into Space, say to go to the moon ,I need a very specific programme
with the correct equipement etc ,food and knowledge etc . Just one important thing missing and I would be totally lost in space . We are given a limited time to get it right ,but I believe unlike most christians we have already been judged at least once ,if not many times already : now all that awaits today is the Final Judgement which Buddhists and such do not believe in ,but they are wrong .
The only reason you are able to write on this forum is because of scientific and technological advances ,and they have come about as a result of the promise made by Jesus to save us and to give us things we could never ever imagine .(2000 years ago ) When enough Souls were brought up from Hell by Jesus sacrifice ,and enough true believers had raised the Spiritual
Life to a high enough level ,the highest since the Fall ,God could teach us and lead us to the knowledge which had been lost then .
In India ,not Israel ,it had been raised in the past ,but lost again as people began to follow false teachers and create false idols , so God needed a people who could love Him and trust in Him enough to complete the cycle of Life ,in which He planned to revelevate ,us before the new cycle begins . Only those who believe in Him will be in the New world .

 

[fat wee robin]

Interesting comment, in my communications with Fizzy, I had just the opposite impression, that he very much does know Christ. But I see him arguing that the presence of Christ is beyond any beliefs or dogma of any religion. Where Christianity lost me was in the focused extent of Christ with in a single being at the expense of and loss of a cosmic wide experience of Christ through out and within the universe and all there is. God's grace is not bounded by beliefs, ideology or anything for that matter. Generally, I've found that Christians have a hard time understanding or appreciating that kind of spiritual experience of Christ that is not bounded or focused on a single being.

I have replied in another post rather a long one but What I find annoying about most christians , even being one myself ,is that they PANIC if you so much as suggest or allude to anything else which is outside of their experience .The lack of a wider knowledge of cultures and religions beyond , makes their 'faith' very delicate ,and yet I took the risk and my reward is beyond price .

 

[fat wee robin]

Maybe the point here is that you have decided to identify Christianity with one or two particular concepts and so have latched, almost at random, onto something you found in various Christian writers, etc. in order to prove that whatever slant you are interested in defines Christianity.

Then you throw it up to us and ask us to defend it or deny it or whatever else you want to tell us about our own faith.

Well, that does NOT define Christianity, although I'm getting the feeling that nothing can dissuade you from the definition of the Christian religion that you've chosen to believe in.

If they were to be objective in their 'truth ', they would realise the buddhism is a dead end , and that it is from Judeo /Christian culture that they have recieved the gift of the
internet and computers ,as well as all the other scientific advances .

 

[MehGuy]

Those of us who are screw ups, thrown about by the waves of our passions, incorrigible, filled with bitterness and even hate; what is to come of us? We who may have an interest in spiritual things, aware of a transcending reality and goodness, but not only fail to reach it, but fail to even try. Are we doomed to whatever hell your various faiths have? Is God, Brahma, Allah, Amida going to save us anyway? Or is it the pit for us?

We of the Bad want to know.

I used to wonder that too. Due to my possible BPD, I have always been a rage filled and bitter man.

 

[dlamberth]

If they were to be objective in their 'truth ', they would realise the buddhism is a dead end , and that it is from Judeo /Christian culture that they have recieved the gift of the
internet and computers ,as well as all the other scientific advances .

Using the point you raise as a jumping off place, as I look upon the earth in how we have raped and desecrated her, if I were a Christian, I wouldn't be very proud of what we are doing to our home.

 

[dlamberth]

Sorry but you too ,are wrong .There is only One christ ...

Maybe for you, but for myself, I see Christ within every Human Being. That's just the way I roll.

 

[ananda]

We agreed that in Buddhism it is a case of "understanding" and not of "belief" as such.

Pure Land Buddhism is firmly in the "non-dual" camp of Buddhism.

"All Sins committed
in the three worlds
will fade and disappear
together with myself" (Ikkyu)

There is much on-going scholarship into the origins of the Mahayana and this even involves the discovery of long lost manuscripts and texts in China and elsewhere. Much that is found in current Pure Land teachings are being traced back, even as far as the hazy beginnings of Theravada and its Scriptures.

Fortunately, such has not led to the heresy hunts, Inquisitions and such-like of our Christian friends (dig dig......... )

I'm glad that you are able to know (and not just believe) the doctrines of Pure Land for yourself. I can only share my Theravada perspective from my own experience and personal knowledge, and because it seems most representatives of Buddhism here, besides myself, speak from the Mahayana/Vajrayana perspective.

 

[Circle Christ]

Those of us who are screw ups, thrown about by the waves of our passions, incorrigible, filled with bitterness and even hate; what is to come of us? We who may have an interest in spiritual things, aware of a transcending reality and goodness, but not only fail to reach it, but fail to even try. Are we doomed to whatever hell your various faiths have? Is God, Brahma, Allah, Amida going to save us anyway? Or is it the pit for us?

We of the Bad want to know.

There's this well known quote of sorts attributed to Anne Dillard. It goes like this:
Eskimo: 'If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?'
Priest: 'No, not if you did not know you would not go to hell.'
Eskimo: 'Then why did you tell me?'


I think how people see themselves is what they think they are because of the choices they've made. And sometimes people who have made bad choices, really bad choices, end up finding a god that they believe loves them as that bad choice maker.
Some people never find a god and subsequently they see themselves as creator of their life. Because the choices they've made have brought them to that state of mind that lives in the world where their choices put them.

Some people I think create a god in their image and likeness. And some have done that and think those confines can't move a bit. That's who he is and it is up to you to fit in the lines and make a universal infinite power happy with your behaviors. Or else he'll destroy you for eternity. Because he can. Because that's his right as your creator.

I've heard a lot of things that people believe about a god. Including why they believe it impossible.
The thing is, if you don't feel it inside as a connection , a relationship, with that which you accept on faith is true you're faking it. And the god you believe in wouldn't be fooled if he possesses the qualities necessary to qualify for the title of, god.
The delusion for some is belief in god. The delusion for that type believer is that their god of choice needs their faith so as to be assured 'he' is god. And is even satisfied in that by the fakers.

Everyone is born atheist. It's simply true. No matter how many you've met who say, I was born Catholic. Or Baptist. Or whatever else.
We're all born pure as the driven snow and innocent and open as the whole outdoors on a spring day. If you want to find God spend time with a newborn. Their eyes shine like the Heaven promised in books. Their smile is infectious and their joy wipes every dark thing you yourself think you've done right off the record. Returning to that visual of your own life back when you were that small. That open. That innocent. And that happy to be alive without knowing what that means.

You don't have to find something to believe in in order to believe you're worth more than the things you've done in your past.
You have to just forgive yourself. Realize you're the only one like you that will ever walk this earth. Unique. Flawed. Resilient because you're still here. And destined to live one more day. Which you'll know is true if you wake up tomorrow.
And that means you have one more chance to explore who you are. What you like about you. What you don't. And if you make a list like that realize that all that is who you are head to toe. But it doesn't mean its worthless or stained because of the one column side of things about you is longer than the other side that is more likable on average. It's part of being human.

As for the Christian faith there is a lot of by-the-bookers that can turn a persons head the other way when considering entering into the fold.
There's too the old sheep thing that attaches to believers, sheep of Christ. The Lord is my shepherd, like that. That makes some think it isn't for them because quite frankly sheep are dumb. If not for a shepherd they'd perish right quick. So the implication of being called a sheep in light of that can be off putting.

And the whole love your enemy thing does take a bit of work. But if you think about it you could arrive at the conclusion that just as it was a Patriarchy rule during Jesus time and certain practices were in play to color the narrative of a boy's club only, so too would a narrative in Roman ruled world of men in counsel deciding what constituted a Bible canon over huge long periods of years and to Rome's benefit could be why they thought to tell believers in the book to love that enemy. To obey their masters. To obey the Emperor. And to not fight back.

Christianity at one time was a faith that was impossible to hold if you were a thinker. Intelligent people just can't buy that stuff, as it were. Or maybe that was just me awhile ago. Then I started to look beyond the words on the page. To the metaphor that's there. The parables Jesus said he always spoke in so as to send a message not meant for everyone to understand.

In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God. And the Word was God.
God is a spirit. He'd have to be wouldn't he? When humans put a face on a spirit they tend to use their own identity for all that it takes to flesh it out. We're like that. Materialists. We have to feel like we control our reality no matter what it is. Even things like eternal spirits that created things not even Hubble has found yet. And still sits in that Heaven concerned with how we behave on this third rock from the sun.

The way I see your quandary is, when there is only the Word that is a Spirit and that even that is impossible for human intellect to fully comprehend, and that Spirit is credited with creating you and knowing you before you entered your mothers womb, as the scriptures tell us about him, then if he is also a God of love as they say, he loves you.

And he always has. Because he knew you before. Before birth. Before all those things you've done. Before that personality you say you have. He knew. And he loves you.

Maybe the trick to "getting it right with God" is to love yourself first. And then you will know he can love you too.
No one comes to God but through God. Jesus was God.
God is a spirit that in the beginning was the Word.

Make peace with yourself. Open and let go. Release and find yourself beyond what you don't like. And don't think can ever change. Because it can. As long as you are breathing you can re-form your life. You just have to make peace with what's been lived already.

Find yourself. And then you'll find God.
Jesus told us that we look for him in books, but we don't believe when he's standing right there in the flesh giving us the Word.

You're made in the image and likeness of an eternal power. Love you.

Everything else will work itself out.

Saw a tee shirt once. Bought it. Now it's old ripped and still hanging in my closet. I love that shirt. It has a wisdom on the front of it that I read when I get to a place where I wonder about things.

"You're not those things you've done. Rather, you're the living wisdom of all that you've survived."



And God has always known you.

 

[dlamberth]

But, does not "Christ" come from the Greek "Christos"?

There's more than a label going on here.

I'm basically one of those people heavily influenced by the Christian Mystic Teilhard De Chardin and others like him who look towards the Cosmic Christ experience. So, Teilhard sees the cosmic Body of Christ extending throughout the universe and comprises all things. He sees the cosmic Body of Christ as the only single thing being made in creation. Teilhard used his correlation between spiritual and material to describe Christ, arguing that Christ not only has a mystical dimension, but also takes on a physical dimension as he becomes the organizing principle of the universe—that is, the one who "holds together" the universe (Col. 1:17b). Teilhard describes this cosmic amassing of Christ as "Christogenesis." According to Teilhard, the universe is engaged in Christogenesis as it evolves toward its full realization at Omega, a point which coincides with the fully realized Christ. It is at this point that God will be ‘all in all’ (1Cor. 15:28c) according to Teilhard.

 

[Arthra]

Those of us who are screw ups, thrown about by the waves of our passions, incorrigible, filled with bitterness and even hate; what is to come of us? We who may have an interest in spiritual things, aware of a transcending reality and goodness, but not only fail to reach it, but fail to even try. Are we doomed to whatever hell your various faiths have? Is God, Brahma, Allah, Amida going to save us anyway? Or is it the pit for us?

We of the Bad want to know.

The only perspective you will find of "hell" in the Baha'i Writings is the kind of hell people dish out to each other and in this mutual hell razing we make ourselves increasingly remote from God... As long as we have inclination we can begin to turn that kind of "hell" around and begin some progress...whether it takes a day for us personally or a century we have the capacity to be transformed and begin an ascent. We can begin to do this by beginning an independent investigation of truth.

 

[tickingclocker]

You are on a Christian debate website. Obviously you are searching for something to satisfy your soul, or cure it because you unconsciously recognize its [still] sick. If you didn't, you wouldn't be here. Spirituality would hold no interest for you. Is this one of those endless inner debates with yourself that goes: I want peace. No, I want chaos. No, I think peace is better. No, chaos is more interesting. No, peace is harder because its rarer. No, chaos is what I'm used to inside. No, I long for peace in my inner being. No, chaos is.... ?

John 3:16, like the man said.

 

[Fizzywig]

Sorry but you too ,are wrong .There is only One christ ,and although most christians
stick to what they know in the written bible ,they are correct in believing there is only one way to life eternal and that is through Jesus .
However not everything is in the Written bible ,and there is a reason for this .The reason being that if people who were not yet 'saved ' become distracted from the 'narrow path' of Jesus words ,then they would or could be lost ,like you are .

Effectively you, fat wee robin, have become God. Infallible. Making pronouncements and judgements of others. Just as you do above, telling another they are "lost", as you did a while back with me......."Not UNTIL ,until what ? Until you waken up in the Dark , the eternal dark "

You appear to touch upon this whole hornets nest of "objective"/"Subjective", of "absolute" and "relative" truth, which I suppose will be argued about until kingdom come (!!)

The creeds that determined the status of Jesus were thrashed out (in a none too friendly fashion) during the first few centuries of the Christian era. They eventually came up with a formula that you yourself interpret as Him being God, the only way, the narrow way.

As I have argued in the past, all true religion is paradox. yet there is paradox and there is contradiction. Christianity sometimes appears to fudge the issue by speaking of "mysteries", the mysteries of Faith. So we are asked to believe that a man was God (where was the Father when God the son walked the earth..............mystery!) , and that words found in an old book determine how we are to "accept" him to enter the "narrow way". Effectively, you slam the kingdom of heaven in peoples faces. You appear to like the "objective".......so "as by one man (Adam) sin entered the world"...........so you must believe that the first few chapters of Genesis are objective truth and not myth. Thus the trap door closes, slamming the kingdom of heaven in peoples faces, those unable to start believing that black is white, that up is down. (The response being, often, that they have "hardened their hearts")

"Purely objective statements miss the mark, for God is not an object. He is Person. Nor are we, as persons, objects. Here all is Subject. There is no "object" "out there" to "see". Here all is presence and communion. Here everything, including our own individuality, remains itself - or, rather, for the first time becomes itself, but does so only by opening out into the oneness that is God."

(James Finley)

Thomas Merton speaks of the door into the Narrow Way.........

The door without wish. The undesired. The unplanned door. The door never expected. Never wanted. Not desirable as a door. Not a joke, not a trap door. Not select. Not exclusive. Not for a few. Not for many. Not for. Door without aim. Door without end. Does not respond to a key - so do not imagine you have a key. Do not have your hopes on possession of the key.

So, fat wee robin, console yourself with actually having the key. And continue to try to lock the door from your side.

 

[Fizzywig]

Well, it certainly won't be a quotation here or there from Thomas Merton or John Calvin. Nor will it be because someone likes--or dislikes--freewill.

There's much more to the faith than the stuff that's been posted here so far. As a matter of fact, I didn't think converting one of us to the other's religion was at all what this was going to be about when I replied to the idea that Christianity is distinctive among the world's great religions because of its understanding of the relationship between God and Man.

Then defend the "relationship" as you see it.

Instead of just saying....."There's much more to the faith than the stuff that's been posted here so far"

Tell us just what is distinctive, the "understanding" of it. If it is not Grace, tell us.

 

[FireDragon76]

Some of us don't get better, not even with Jesus..

You might want to read The Ragamuffin Gospel by Brennan Manning.

 

[Fizzywig]

If they were to be objective in their 'truth ', they would realise the buddhism is a dead end , and that it is from Judeo /Christian culture that they have recieved the gift of the
internet and computers ,as well as all the other scientific advances .

Quite why the scientific method has arisen in the West is the subject of great debate nowadays. I would suggest that your own rather fanciful notions would be way down the list of those seeking answers.

To be honest, I fail to see why anyone would be so quick to lay claim to this. Why stop at computers and suchlike? Lets look further........the atomic bomb perhaps?

(Oops, forgot........no "true" Christian would have developed any such thing or used it)

 

[Fizzywig]

Just a quick word. Possibly when yet another quote is offered from Merton the cry will go up...."oh no, here he goes again". Quite possible. Yet use a little empathy. Try to understand what non-christians feel when yet another quote is offered from the Bible, and what's more, the usual ones of ""I am the Way............" and "No other name.........." and all that accompanies such quotes is the accusation of "hardened hearts". So here is Merton again, and hopefully Christians will not harden their hearts against the words.

This is the inner secret of mercy. It is totally incompatible with obsession, with compulsion. It liberates from all the rigid and deterministic structures which magic strives to impose on reality (or which science, the child of magic, tries to impose)

Mercy is not to be purchased by a set way of acting, by a formal determination to be consistent.

Law is consistent. Grace is "inconsistent."

The Cross is the sign of contradiction - destroying the seriousness of the Law, of the Empire, of the armies, of blood sacrifice, and of obsession.

But the magicians keep turning the Cross to their own purpose. Yes, it is for them too a sign of contradiction: the awful blasphemy of the religious magician who makes the Cross contradict mercy. This of course is the ultimate temptation of Christianity. To say that Christ has locked all doors, has given one answer, settled everything and departed, leaving all life enclosed in the frightful consistency of a system outside of which there is seriousness and damnation, inside of which there is the intolerable flippancy of the saved - while nowhere is there any place left for the mystery of the freedom of divine mercy which alone is truly serious, and worthy of being taken seriously.

(From "Raids on the Unspeakable")

If anyone wishes examples of the "intolerable flippancy of the saved", look no further than this thread and posts being made that tell others they are "lost" and will wake to an eternal dark. Just how flippant can you get. Alas, such seem blind to their own obsessions.

 

[dlamberth]

You are on a Christian debate website. Obviously you are searching for something to satisfy your soul, or cure it because you unconsciously recognize its [still] sick.

Not sick..."awakening" would be the term I'd use.

 

[Fizzywig]

You are on a Christian debate website. Obviously you are searching for something to satisfy your soul, or cure it because you unconsciously recognize its [still] sick. If you didn't, you wouldn't be here. Spirituality would hold no interest for you. Is this one of those endless inner debates with yourself that goes: I want peace. No, I want chaos. No, I think peace is better. No, chaos is more interesting. No, peace is harder because its rarer. No, chaos is what I'm used to inside. No, I long for peace in my inner being. No, chaos is.... ?

John 3:16, like the man said.

Hi tickingclocker, who exactly are you addressing?

EDIT:- ah ha! nightflight I think. Sorry, I was thrown by dlamberth responding.

 

[Robban]

There's more than a label going on here.

I'm basically one of those people heavily influenced by the Christian Mystic Teilhard De Chardin and others like him who look towards the Cosmic Christ experience. So, Teilhard sees the cosmic Body of Christ extending throughout the universe and comprises all things. He sees the cosmic Body of Christ as the only single thing being made in creation. Teilhard used his correlation between spiritual and material to describe Christ, arguing that Christ not only has a mystical dimension, but also takes on a physical dimension as he becomes the organizing principle of the universe—that is, the one who "holds together" the universe (Col. 1:17b). Teilhard describes this cosmic amassing of Christ as "Christogenesis." According to Teilhard, the universe is engaged in Christogenesis as it evolves toward its full realization at Omega, a point which coincides with the fully realized Christ. It is at this point that God will be ‘all in all’ (1Cor. 15:28c) according to Teilhard.

OK, it goes way past me, don't get it at alL

 

[Fizzywig]

OK, it goes way past me, don't get it at alL

Something like the words of Jerusalem, by William Blake.....

"I will not cease from mental fight
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
Till we have built Jerusalem
On England's green and pleasant land"

(But in a Cosmic context)