A Controversial Review of the Immaculate

[Goatee]

- Judas had his function, Mary had hers. There is no trial and error with God.

- "Mary did agree to God out of love for God. She was not forced. God chose Blessed Mary but she could have refused." all this is just happening in your mind to create a possibility which never happened. this is mystical storytelling at its best.

- "Mary was the Holy Tabernacle of Our Lord. The True Ark of the Covenant" - ridiculous. with this approach might as well believe any invented title about mary, like queen of the universe, etc..

Well, yee of little faith!

I love Mary and she is the Mother of God to millions of Catholics. She was indeed a Holy Tabernacle. She was indeed a True Ark of the Covenant! What did Mary have inside of her? Yes, thats right, 'THE WORD'.

I hope that one day you will see the truth about Our Beloved Mother Mary. The Queen of Heaven

God bless you buddy

 

[Geralt]

Well, yee of little faith!

I love Mary and she is the Mother of God to millions of Catholics. She was indeed a Holy Tabernacle. She was indeed a True Ark of the Covenant! What did Mary have inside of her? Yes, thats right, 'THE WORD'.

I hope that one day you will see the truth about Our Beloved Mother Mary. The Queen of Heaven

God bless you buddy

i don't doubt your love for Mary, but it is not the jewish mary of scripture, rather a fictional version of mary.

as i have written in my previous post, take mary out of the picture, the gospel remain the same.

any devotion to a fictional mary is redundant, a total waste of time. and really you would not waste your life-time for something that is irrelevant to salvation, unless of course you believe mary is the gospel or the means to it. this eventually results to a different christ which is obviously what you have now.

 

[Goatee]

i don't doubt your love for Mary, but it is not the jewish mary of scripture, rather a fictional version of mary.

as i have written in my previous post, take mary out of the picture, the gospel remain the same.

any devotion to a fictional mary is redundant, a total waste of time. and really you would not waste your life-time for something that is irrelevant to salvation, unless of course you believe mary is the gospel or the means to it. this eventually results to a different christ which is obviously what you have now.

Of course, you are a Sola Scriptura person so enough said!

I prefer and believe in Holy Catholic Tradition.

God bless you

 

[Ajax 777]

Mary is the Queen of Heaven:

Nope, sorry. No Queen in Heaven (though there is a Bride). Just a King.

For you my dear friend to read and try to understand:

Understanding is not the issue. You lack discernment. Besides, EWTN is basically the Catholic version of TBN. Why would I believe them any more than I do you?

The 'Obvious' has been pointed out to you but you fail / ignore to see it!

We will have to agree to disagree, I suppose.

God bless you buddy

And may God, Who is no respecter of persons and impartial to all, correct the one(s) in error, and edify all who seek Him in earnest.

We're all in need of His wisdom here. Not just those who do not worship Mary.

 

[Goatee]

Nope, sorry. No Queen in Heaven. Just a King.



Understanding is not the issue. You lack discernment. Besides, EWTN is basically the Catholic version of TBN. Why would I believe them any more than I do you?



We will have to agree to disagree, I suppose.



And may God, Who is no respecter of persons and impartial to all, correct the one(s) in error, and edify all who seek Him in earnest.

We're all in need of His wisdom here. Not just those who do not worship Mary.

Obviously you dont know Catholicism as Catholics 'Do Not Worship' Mary. That is how you see things. Through the wrong specs my friend!

Revelation 12:1-2

12 And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery.

Queen of Heaven! Mary with Baby Jesus.

http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=385115

 

[Ajax 777]

Obviously you dont know Catholicism as Catholics 'Do Not Worship' Mary. That is how you see things. Through the wrong specs my friend!

Revelation 12:1-2

12 And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery.

Queen of Heaven! Mary with Baby Jesus.

http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=385115

Semantics.

You pray to Mary.

You venerate her.

You think she is needed as Intercessor between us and Jesus Christ, as Jesus is between us and the Father. You say it is not worship, but like you accused me of, it sure does look like it.

May the Lord judge between you and me. Let the disagreement end there, or are you not content with that?

 

[Goatee]

Semantics.

You pray to Mary.

You venerate her.

You think she is needed as Intercessor between us and Jesus Christ, as Jesus is between us and the Father. You say it is not worship, but like you accused me of, it sure does look like it.

May the Lord judge between you and me. Let the disagreement end there, or are you not content with that?

We venerate Mary yes. We dont Worship her though. We pray to ask for her intercession. Much like she did at Cana where she interceded! Who better than the Mother of God to ask to intercede to Jesus!

God knows that you love him and he knows that i love him. God the Son loves His Mother and like any son would want us to Love Her too. If you look down history you will see many miracles that Our Blessed Mother has carried out, Fatima, Lourdes to name but two.

God bless you buddy

 

[Linet Kihonge]

You can say whoever you want to say she is. The LORD didn't like honoring of the mom. He didn't like that and he INSTRUCTED that the blessed were those who listened and obeyed his word (Jesus was the word - hence all honor was his). This is what happens when we don't do what the word says, we "DISOBEY"

 

[Goatee]

You can say whoever you want to say she is. The LORD didn't like honoring of the mom. He didn't like that and he INSTRUCTED that the blessed were those who listened and obeyed his word (Jesus was the word - hence all honor was his). This is what happens when we don't do what the word says, we "DISOBEY"

Interpretation. One word.

 

[FaeryChild]

You can say whoever you want to say she is. The LORD didn't like honoring of the mom. He didn't like that and he INSTRUCTED that the blessed were those who listened and obeyed his word (Jesus was the word - hence all honor was his). This is what happens when we don't do what the word says, we "DISOBEY"

By all means, obey the Bible:

Luke 1:48 "Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed."

Let us call Mary blessed out of obedience to the first chapter of Luke!

 

[FaeryChild]

Also out of obedience to Exodus 20:12 - certainly Jesus honored His Mother!

 

[FaeryChild]

Your argument is essentially that Jesus does not want us to follow what was written in Scripture?

 

[JacksBratt]

Obviously you dont know Catholicism as Catholics 'Do Not Worship' Mary. That is how you see things. Through the wrong specs my friend!

Revelation 12:1-2

12 And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery.

Queen of Heaven! Mary with Baby Jesus.

http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=385115

I found this article. It depicts exactly what I thought.


The woman—described as being “clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars” (verse 1)—represents Old Testament Israel. In the Old Testament, God referred to His people as a woman whom He had dressed in honor and splendor (Ezekiel 16). The garland with 12 stars may be symbolic of the 12 tribes of Israel (Genesis 37:9-10).

In the New Testament, God’s Church is symbolized as a woman; and its members are likened to virgins (Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 14:4; Revelation 19:7). The New Testament Church is called “the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16) and likened to “Jerusalem above,” which is called “the mother of us all” (Galatians 4:26, also see Hebrews 12:22-23). Members of the Church are described as “a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His [God’s] own special people” (1 Peter 2:9).


When Christ returns to earth, He is going to marry the Church, which is called “His wife” in Revelation 19:7. Based on these passages, it is clear that the woman in Revelation 12 represents God’s people. Incidentally, it is also interesting to note that the imagery of a dishonorable woman—one called “the great harlot”—is used in Revelation 17:1 to depict a false church that deceives many.

From: http://lifehopeandtruth.com/prophecy/revelation/revelation-12/

The Woman in Revelation 12 is not Mary. Like someone else, here, said, there is no Queen in heaven. There will be a bride though, she is made up of all the followers of Christ, the church, the body of Christ.

 

[JacksBratt]

Found another for you:

Luke 1:28 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
28 And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!”

hmm, all Catholic translations. Interesting. Can you find one or two that are not Catholic interpretations of God's word?

 

[JacksBratt]

the argument was christ's development in the womb sustained by mary's blood, not the other way around.

I agree, Mary's blood carried nutrients to the baby Jesus inside her.

 

[FaeryChild]

The Greek word in question in Luke 11:28 is Μενοῦν. According to Strong's concordance, it is a disjunctive participle formed from two root words, Μεν and οῦν. The first word means "indeed" and the second word means "therefore" - so it literally puts "indeed" and "therefore" together as a compound word. It is a Greek idiom and depending on context it can mean either a negation "nay rather" or an affirmation "indeed, truly, really". A form of the word appears in Romans 9:20 as a negation while the exact same word appears in Romans 10:18 as an affirmation. In these two cases of Romans, Paul's intent is clear.

In regards to Luke 11:28, discernment is required as to whether or not Jesus is rebuking or affirming the honor of His Mother. The technical Greek can go either way based on context. So, what is more likely:

-Jesus is rebuking someone for honoring Mary, thereby violating the Law to honor our parents and contradicting other parts of Scripture
or
-Jesus is affirming someone for honoring Mary - and going on to explain why Mary is honored (because She was obedient to God).

Keep in mind that in Luke's first chapter, we see the prophecy that all generations will bless Mary. We see that this has begun to happen 10 chapters later. What then are we to do? We must be obedient and call Her blessed. We must also seek to be like Mary and be obedient to God ourselves. It is not enough, of course, to just say a Hail Mary - one must also follow Jesus.

 

[FaeryChild]

hmm, all Catholic translations. Interesting. Can you find one or two that are not Catholic interpretations of God's word?

Yes, look it up in the Wycliffe translation. His English also says "Hail, full of grace" and Wycliffe was notorious for his dissent to the Roman Church. This is how Wycliffe rendered the passage:

28 And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.

 

[Cis.jd]

Mary did not have Jesus' blood. This is a false belief. I do not have my mother or fathers blood. I have their Genetics. In the uterus there is no blood passed between the fetus and the mother. None. The mothers blood enters the placenta and exchanges nutrients with the blood of the baby that has also entered the placenta through a different and totally separate network of blood vessels.
Babies have their blood, mothers have theirs, respectively. No blood exchange.

scientifically false.

 

[Magnus Maximus]

So, you will cherry pick this one translation out of, how many, 50? and use it for to base your erroneous belief?

A Protestant talking about translations of the bible is like a fish talking about flying.

The Protestant reformers took there knives and pens to the bible and cut out chapters, verses and books that did not support their theology. So anything that comes from the KJV is incomplete and the translation is suspect. That is the problem we argue from a complete bible that is accurately translated; you are aurging from an incomplete bible that was written more as literary art.

Second: which one of the 1,000 different Protestant sects interpretations are you citing?

 

[chevyontheriver]

The scripture that you have posted just says that she was highly favored.
That is a stretch. To base this on one verse in scripture, that doesn't even say she was sinless.

We all translate Luke 1:28 differently I guess. You apparently use a translation by people who do not believe Mary could be 'full of grace'. So you see a more watered down wording. I look at kecharitomene and see a word that means Mary was full to the top with grace, endowed to the top with grace, and by the perfect tense not at any point in her life ever short of grace. You can read the word differently if you wish, but for me she never was anything but full of grace from the moment of her conception. And the corollary is that there was no room in her life for any sin.

If Mary was sinless, we would have had no need for Christ. He was sent to live a sinless life, the only human to do so. In order for it to be possible to die for my sins. If He had His own sins, mine would not be paid for. If Mary was sinless she would contradict tonnes of scripture and she could have been the savior of the earth.... This is not possible.

This is a category confusion. Jesus did not save us because He was sinless. He saved us because He was God. God has made sinless people before, and for Him it's not so hard to do. Adam was sinless for a while. Eve too. They were otherwise plain old humans. What makes Jesus special is that he is fully God in addition to being fully human. Not mere lack of sin. Mary without sin would not make her a savior or God. Just as Adam without sin did not make him savior or God. Couldn't happen. Only Jesus could do that, and only because he was already God from God, eternal Son of the Father. Mary isn't God and her sinlessness doesn't make her savior. She did need a savior herself. Catholics believe the application of that salvation happened for her just after her conception.