Gal 4 "under the Law" vs "under Grace" in Romans 6 and not sinning

[Bob S]

I chose not to debate on the Shabbat so I took a little break, I am really enjoying this debate thanks so much for participating with me.

I just got back from church and it is so hot out I decided not to spend any time outside, so i thought I would check in to see if you have posted. I love a good debate too. I hope both of us plus those who are "lurking" get a blessing.

Yes, that is right nothing has passed from the law, the thing is we are in despora with no temple and no priesthood.

You really do not have to be discouraged my friend read this: 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. According to you Jesus didn't do what He set out to do. Is it recorded somewhere that Jesus is going to come back and finish the job? I thought that the next time Jesus returns is to gather His own and take us to our reward in Heaven. Where have I missed the boat? I don't think I have. Jesus came, fulfilled the law and ushered in the new covenant for all mankind not just Israel, so don't be discouraged about the temple or other acts you cannot do to keep Torah, we are not obligated to Torah, Jesus fulfilled it.

A great example to follow would be of course our Messiah but also Daniel he stayed true to God under the system of Babylon while he was in despora. He kept his Body pure from the Kings food and he and his companions did not give into idolotry.

Isn't it a fact that you cannot keep Torah. Wouldn't you think after two thousand years God would have provided you with a way to be observant if that is indeed his plan?

We even find Paul and his companions taking a vow which included sacrifice in the temple in Acts 14:12.

Sorry but that is not true of this verse at all. Maybe you should try again or at least read the verse. After you read it please give me your thoughts.

And in the millennial reign when God sets up His system we will all worship Him as prescribed in the Torah. Eze 43-45 Isa 66:20, Zec 14,

Have you read those verses? That is the true meaning of out of context. Those verses have nothing to do with whether Jesus fulfilled the law at Calvary. You have yet to teach me anything as to why you practice your form of religion.

 

[1John2:4]

I just got back from church and it is so hot out I decided not to spend any time outside, so i thought I would check in to see if you have posted. I love a good debate too. I hope both of us plus those who are "lurking" get a blessing.


You really do not have to be discouraged my friend read this: 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. According to you Jesus didn't do what He set out to do. Is it recorded somewhere that Jesus is going to come back and finish the job? I thought that the next time Jesus returns is to gather His own and take us to our reward in Heaven. Where have I missed the boat? I don't think I have. Jesus came, fulfilled the law and ushered in the new covenant for all mankind not just Israel, so don't be discouraged about the temple or other acts you cannot do to keep Torah, we are not obligated to Torah, Jesus fulfilled it.


Isn't it a fact that you cannot keep Torah. Wouldn't you think after two thousand years God would have provided you with a way to be observant if that is indeed his plan?


Sorry but that is not true of this verse at all. Maybe you should try again or at least read the verse. After you read it please give me your thoughts.


Have you read those verses? That is the true meaning of out of context. Those verses have nothing to do with whether Jesus fulfilled the law at Calvary. You have yet to teach me anything as to why you practice your form of religion.

Thanks for the reply, I am trying to understand your stance, correct me if I am wrong. Do you believe Yeshua came to do away with the law of God? If so where is the prophecy in the Bible stating this truth?

 

[1John2:4]

I am so sorry, I quoted the wrong verse, Acts 21:26. Easy for you to debate with that type of mistake.

After

 

[1John2:4]

I just got back from church and it is so hot out I decided not to spend any time outside, so i thought I would check in to see if you have posted. I love a good debate too. I hope both of us plus those who are "lurking" get a blessing.


You really do not have to be discouraged my friend read this: 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. According to you Jesus didn't do what He set out to do. Is it recorded somewhere that Jesus is going to come back and finish the job? I thought that the next time Jesus returns is to gather His own and take us to our reward in Heaven. Where have I missed the boat? I don't think I have. Jesus came, fulfilled the law and ushered in the new covenant for all mankind not just Israel, so don't be discouraged about the temple or other acts you cannot do to keep Torah, we are not obligated to Torah, Jesus fulfilled it.


Isn't it a fact that you cannot keep Torah. Wouldn't you think after two thousand years God would have provided you with a way to be observant if that is indeed his plan?


Sorry but that is not true of this verse at all. Maybe you should try again or at least read the verse. After you read it please give me your thoughts.


Have you read those verses? That is the true meaning of out of context. Those verses have nothing to do with whether Jesus fulfilled the law at Calvary. You have yet to teach me anything as to why you practice your form of religion.

I really appreciate your concern, I know you really do have a heart for people, but I love learning and keeping the Torah the best I can. It teaches me about God, what He likes and what He hates. I delight in His law.

 

[1John2:4]

verses

Yes, I have they are about the day of the Lord and millennial kingdom which have not yet been fulfilled

 

[Bob S]

Thanks for the reply, I am trying to understand your stance, correct me if I am wrong. Do you believe Yeshua came to do away with the law of God? If so where is the prophecy in the Bible stating this truth?

Thanks for the reply, I am trying to understand your stance, correct me if I am wrong. Do you believe Yeshua came to do away with the law of God? If so where is the prophecy in the Bible stating this truth?

No, Jesus came to save Israel from the curse of the law. All the law could do is reveal sin, it had no saving power. God new before the creation of man that we would fail that is why They formulated the plan of salvation before the foundation of the World.
The Torah would cease to be when the covenant relationship ceased. The covenant was with only Israel. God said "if" you will keep my laws and my statues.. They over and over disobeyed and the "if" came to life and ended the relationship. Israel broke the Torah relationship and it all ended at the Cross. Jesus set forth the new and better everlasting covenant, one you should be studying instead of the one that has faded

 

[Bob S]

I am so sorry, I quoted the wrong verse, Acts 21:26. Easy for you to debate with that type of mistake.

Paul was human and did some things He never asked any other Christian to do. We don't know why except he did say he tried to be all things to all people. What Paul did does not obligate Christians. The new covenant is not about old covenant rituals.

 

[love2obey]

I believe it was you that wrote: "I wonder if you ever attended an SDA church". You keep questioning me personally, so I tried to tell you why I am not SDA anymore. Yes, one of the reasons I am not SDA is their belief in having to "keep" the Sabbath and I have given you text after text to prove my position. I was SDA for 40 years and know the doctrines forward and backward. The 10 commandments, with its ritual Sabbath law, was abrogated at the Cross. It was a temporary law given only to Israel and ended when the new covenant was ushered in at Calvary. The 10 were the guide for Israel, the Holy Spirit is the Christian's guide. 2Cor3:7-11, 1Jn3:19-24. The moral parts of the 10 are included in the law of love.

you keep stating that you were for so long and know the doctrines but it seems that you dont. if you did, with all due respect, you would have never left the church. Good example on the Sabbath which you keep calling a ritual. I dont go into the bible bowl with text after texts to discredit what God did. SDA teaching is about God who does not change nor His Word changes. Therefore, in the beginning it was GOOD and it is still good for us even thou the devil has tried to use God's own words to make God look like a fool. The plan of salvation started from the moment man sinned where God has been trying to restore humanity back to its original form, in God's image. it didnt start on the cross nor does it end on it.
Just because those who God gave His word to share with the world made a mistake does not mean that God made a mistake with His word that He needs to correct. God is eternal, therefore, does not change. What God changed was the way He deliver the message but not the message. the devil is still alive.

 

[Bob S]

Yes, I have they are about the day of the Lord and millennial kingdom which have not yet been fulfilled

Jesus said he came to fulfill the law and the prophets. He didn't mention anything about the day of the Lord or the Millennium. He did what He said he would do. He fulfilled the law. He by His death ended the old covenant and ushered in the new. That is why Paul's words do not have to be interpreted. They stand on their own. He said in Gal 3 that the Torah was until Jesus. I await your comments.

 

[Bob S]

you keep stating that you were for so long and know the doctrines but it seems that you dont. if you did, with all due respect, you would have never left the church. Good example on the Sabbath which you keep calling a ritual. I dont go into the bible bowl with text after texts to discredit what God did.

Seems? That is what you wrote, but in your heart you really mean you know I don't. Either way is an attack on my credibility. Sabbath was a ritual. Jews know it is their ritual. Case closed.

You accuse me of discrediting God because I give you bible texts that refute the Sabbath as a Christian duty? That is just plain sick. Your personal attacks prove to me that you cannot refute the scripture I have presented.

SDA teaching is about God who does not change nor His Word changes.

This is true. In the plan of salvation God has and continues to deal with His children. He certainly gave Adam and Eve a plan, then came Noah, Abraham, then the Israelites and now us. Each has a special plan or commands that God deemed/deems necessary. Our plan is the last plan and it too differs with the other plans. That does not mean that God changes. What we read is what He planned for mankind from before He created man. God gave Israel Torah and He gives us the covenant of grace. The Torah covenant ended when Israel would not obey it. No more Torah. It all ended at the Cross. Jesus fulfilled Torah and payed the price for all of our sins.

You just don't seem to get it and I guess I am tired of pounding the keys in an effort to help you see the real truth. So, I will end my dialogue with you except when you attack me personally.

 

[love2obey]

Seems? That is what you wrote, but in your heart you really mean you know I don't. Either way is an attack on my credibility. Sabbath was a ritual. Jews know it is their ritual. Case closed.

You accuse me of discrediting God because I give you bible texts that refute the Sabbath as a Christian duty? That is just plain sick. Your personal attacks prove to me that you cannot refute the scripture I have presented.


This is true. In the plan of salvation God has and continues to deal with His children. He certainly gave Adam and Eve a plan, then came Noah, Abraham, then the Israelites and now us. Each has a special plan or commands that God deemed/deems necessary. Our plan is the last plan and it too differs with the other plans. That does not mean that God changes. What we read is what He planned for mankind from before He created man. God gave Israel Torah and He gives us the covenant of grace. The Torah covenant ended when Israel would not obey it. No more Torah. It all ended at the Cross. Jesus fulfilled Torah and payed the price for all of our sins.

You just don't seem to get it and I guess I am tired of pounding the keys in an effort to help you see the real truth. So, I will end my dialogue with you except when you attack me personally.

Bob anytime we accept a change in God, we are taking away from God and is not longer God. it is the only thing we have as believers to stand firm against the devil deceiving ways. It is the core of what faith is since we have never nor will ever see God. The plan is the same since people are the same, sinners. it is like saying then that an animal life was enough to redeem sinners in the OT. If it was so simple Jesus would not have to die for us. God does not take sin so lightly
and Jesus work is not done. He is the High Priest. Hebrew 5
Romans 8:34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

 

[bugkiller]

that text is for us to know that there is hope for the sinners not exoneration to sin.
time and time again, the OT show us that for any man to find grace in the eye's of God, the will of God it must do.
There is no greater truth that Jesus can preach to us even today than no sinner will be with Him when He comes back.

Please read within context John 14 from a servant, doer of God's will, as Jesus was when He walked on earth in the flesh.

How does JN 1:17 deal with sin? It only says that Moses brought the law and Jesus brought grace and truth OPW did not bring nor teach the law.

What are you wanting me to see in JH 14? Is it verse 15 per chance? Then I ask you about 15:10 in which the same statement appears with other information.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Do you know anyone who is attending that is tearing down? Sounds fishy to me. Those who are teaching a false Gospel should come under criticism. Anytime I write something that you think is wrong please refute me with the correct thought. Instead of all the personal attacks why not defend your position.

They don't know how and can't.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

1John where are you?
What happened to the debate we were having. here is where we were:

No He didn't 1Jn. He said: 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Well, you read the verse wrong, but you do contend that Jesus didn't do what He came to do by writing "Not all has been fulfilled, there still remains prophecy that has not yet come to pass.", so there is more for Him to do at some point according to you. If that is true then we have no right to take one jot or one tittle out of Torah. We are still fully under all the laws of the Torah. There are no excuses. The sacrificial system of the Torah is still in effect. The Temple must be rebuilt and the Levitical priesthood restored. All of the 613 laws of Torah must be kept by the persons responsible.

Really, do you not see the folly of your stance?

One of those mice responsible for the holes in cheese got ahold of his Bible.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we saw His glory, glory in the same manner as the only child of the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John bore witness concerning Him and cried out saying, "This One was He of Whom I said, 'The One Who is coming after me has been before me, because He is more prominent than I."' 16 Beacuse we took grace upon grace from His fullness: 17 for the Torah was given through Moses, the grace and truth came through Yeshua Messiah 18. No one has ever seen God: the only Son of God, the One Who was in the bosom of the Father. That One declared Him.

I believe this passage really does not have anything to do with changing God's commandment if you read it in context, I see the author establishing Yeshua as Mesiah, Grace upon grace looks like it could mean teaching upon teaching. The Torah is light Yeshua is light, John is really pin pointing how Yeshua is the one true Messiah the Son of the living God. Good observation on this one, I enjoyed digging in. Remember Yeshua also said "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' chair, therefore everything which they which they would say to you, you must do and keep, but you must not do according to their works, for they are saying but not doing" Matthew 23:2-4

You're in lots of trouble for not performing as the Scribes and Pharisees teach.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Matthew 5
The wonderful sermon on the mount, does not prove the commandments of God were changed by Yeshua. The people had strayed from the true teaching by adding vein tradition. This is why Yeshua talks about "you heard it is said" those were added with the Talmudic Oral Law "it is written" was the truth from the Torah. I would love to post the whole thing and point this out to you, but instead, do you have anything from Matthew 5 -7 in particular that proves Yeshua is abolishing Torah and establishing new rules?

gi'mie a break dude.

Thou shalt not kill is commandment 6.

Thou shalt not commit adultery is commandment 7.

Neither originate from the Talmudic Oral Law.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Matthew 24:44 And He said to them, "These messages I told you while I was still with you, that it is necessary for everything to be fulfilled that has been written about Me in the Torah of Moses the Prophets and the Psalms." Then He opened their minds and they understood the scriptures:and He said to them that "Thus it has been written that the Messiah would suffer and be raised from the dead on the third day,

Sorry but this above quote doesn't come from Matthew. Besides that I don't know what version of the Scripture you're quoting. My Greek transliterated text says "prei emou" - concerning me. If you like I can post the Greek script.

These are prophecy fulfilled (Isa 53, Psalms 22) absolutely. However not all prophecy had been fulfilled such as Isa 11:6 or Isa 65:25 when the lion will lie down with the lamb and shall eat straw like an ox. Or the day of the Lord and the millennial reign, new heaven new earth, none of that has been fulfilled.

These aren't included in the Mat 5 text because of LK 24:44. Yes I understand you say they are. I also understand why you believe that.

Friend, not All has been fulfilled yet, so much prophecy has not come to pass. He will fulfill it on his next return. The lion does not lay down with the lamb Isa 11:6 or Isa 65:25. The new heaven and new earth are not yet here. The day of the Lord has not yet come to pass. The wedding feast has not yet happened. Through Yeshua, God made a way that all could be saved, the children that Rachel wept for (Jer 31:14, Matthew 2:18) would come home. Because The house of Israel, Ephriam, Jacob was rebellious and the Lord sent her away, divorced her Jer 3:8, Isa 50:1. He died so He could come back and marry Her again. According to His own law He cannot enter into a marriage covenent with the same woman once He sent her away with a certificate of divorce. Dueteronomy 21-24. He comes back for her, dies for her, for us, it's such an amazing love, that God has for us! Many people just gloss over Jerimiah 31 and just quote 31:30 to proof text their own theology Isaiah and Jerimiah both encompass this prophecy, that is why in Luke 24:45 their minds were opened to the scripture.

Why do you insist that Jesus is lying or that Dr. Luke is a false prophet/teacher?

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. Rom 10

Why do you refuse to believe?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I chose not to debate on the Shabbat so I took a little break, I am really enjoying this debate thanks so much for participating with me.

Yes, that is right nothing has passed from the law, the thing is we are in despora with no temple and no priesthood. A great example to follow would be of course our Messiah but also Daniel he stayed true to God under the system of Babylon while he was in despora. He kept his Body pure from the Kings food and he and his companions did not give into idolotry. We even find Paul and his companions taking a vow which included sacrifice in the temple in Acts 14:12. And in the millennial reign when God sets up His system we will all worship Him as prescribed in the Torah. Eze 43-45 Isa 66:20, Zec 14,

So what's keeping you from compliance with Ex 20:8-11? There was no temple at the time the 4th commandment was issued. It doesn't require a temple either.

Are you incompliance with Ex 12:48?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Misread a post.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Jesus said he came to fulfill the law and the prophets. He didn't mention anything about the day of the Lord or the Millennium. He did what He said he would do. He fulfilled the law. He by His death ended the old covenant and ushered in the new. That is why Paul's words do not have to be interpreted. They stand on their own. He said in Gal 3 that the Torah was until Jesus. I await your comments.

They must resort to anything to deny Jesus is Savior.

bugkiller