Gal 4 "under the Law" vs "under Grace" in Romans 6 and not sinning

[BobRyan]

Where in the Bible does He say that He changed the Fathers commandments? Passage and verse please.

Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[BobRyan]

Come on friend, Jesus differentiated His commandments with the Father's commandments.

Just not in real life

In real life Jesus said that nothing that He said - came from Him - but rather it came from the Father and He would not speak a single thing apart from the Father.

 

[disciple1]

no my friend. that is not OT teaching. God has not evolved as sin has. We need to change and not God
Now that you refuse to see Jesus as a teacher of the law which He obeyed and was found without sin.
This is what Jesus Himself says about what will the Holy Spirit teach us
John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

As God, I dont accept that Jesus would ever changed what was already done by Himself neither would the Holy Spirit. If so, they are not one. It shows confusion and lack of knowledge in God. Plus, it makes a lair out of Himself. Number 23:19, Mal 3:6. The Highlighted text shows the true character of God, always continuing with His teachings as it was from the beginning.

Jesus offered freedom your offering slavery.
John chapter 8
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
But by obeying the law if even it was possible your a slave.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

"If you love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
"Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6

"Do we then abolish the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

"I will write MY LAW on their heart and mind" Heb 8:6-10

Jesus offered freedom .

In Gen 3 Satan offered freedom to rebel against God's Word.

Jesus offered freedom to keep it.

The result? "the Saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

 

[love2obey]

No, I have no scripture. I don't believe there is any scripture indicating the other nine are moral either. The nine are how we relate to God and our fellow man. the Sabbath is how the Israelires related to the command to rest and remember. It also stated that Israelites were to labor six days. Do all you Sabbath commandment observers labor six days?
Shabbat is the most important ritual observance in Judaism. It is the only ritual observance instituted in the Ten Commandments. It is also the most important special day, even more important than Yom Kippur. This is clear from the fact that more aliyot (opportunities for congregants to be called up to the Torah) are given on Shabbat than on any other day.
http://www.jewfaq.org/shabbat.htm
Is there something holy about using the word Shabbat in place of Sabbath?


Please give me some scripture that tells us this. I thought Sabbath was about a day of rest, a day of commemoration of their freedom from bondage in Egypt and remembrance of creation.


How come God didn't ever ask any other nation to remember creation? We are all children of His creation. Why do you think that God wants gentiles today to do something He never asked them to do in all of history.


No one is making people stop taking time to love others, worship God and rest. There is absolutely no way everyone in the World can observe Saturday by closing down everything and attending church. That could only happen in a totalitarian country like Israel was once.


Please show me where anyone has called the commandments legalism. I think even young children understand the commandments. What more is there to understand?


I don't believe that. It is people that become legalistic.

The problem is that God has never asked Christians to keep a day. Another fact, no one has ever really kept the Sabbath. Tryers fail every week.


Kinda reeks of telling those of us who do not buy into your brand of religion will have hard hearts and will come into calamity. I could post the same scripture to you, but I wouldn't do such a thing to anyone.

Bob as I read this post, I wonder if you ever attended an SDA church. I am not being sarcastic at all.
Let us keep in mind that many offshoots have come out of the SDA and call themselves SDA yet have nothing to do with
our church.

 

[love2obey]

Jesus offered freedom your offering slavery.
John chapter 8
31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
But by obeying the law if even it was possible your a slave.

man was created in God's image, perfect, but chose otherwise. Jesus is the way for us to be restored back to what we used to be before sin.
WE SLAVE OURSELVES WHEN WE SIN. GOD MADE US TO BE FREE.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob S - as I read this post, I wonder if you ever attended an SDA church. .

Some attend to build up. Some attend to tear down.

As I am sure you will agree - everyone has free will and choose what they will -- even if they choose to attend church.

 

[love2obey]

So discus JN 1:17.

bugkiller

that text is for us to know that there is hope for the sinners not exoneration to sin.
time and time again, the OT show us that for any man to find grace in the eye's of God, the will of God it must do.
There is no greater truth that Jesus can preach to us even today than no sinner will be with Him when He comes back.

Please read within context John 14 from a servant, doer of God's will, as Jesus was when He walked on earth in the flesh.

 

[Bob S]

Bob as I read this post, I wonder if you ever attended an SDA church. I am not being sarcastic at all.
Let us keep in mind that many offshoots have come out of the SDA and call themselves SDA yet have nothing to do with
our church.

Instead of telling me what you "think" about what I have done why didn't you refute what I wrote?

I simply do not believe the teachings of the SDA church. I do believe Ellen White was truly a false prophet. I not only believe she was I can prove it over and over. The ones who truly believe she was a prophet tend to become legalistic.

I think it is you that tells me you do not use her writings to form your opinions (beliefs). The whole system is stamped with her approval and you are parroting her and probably do not realize doing so. Your beliefs are not all Biblical and follow what she taught. This is not a forum on Ellen White, so I will refrain from writing any more about her.

Also, this forum is not about what I do or do not do. Please refrain from writing unknown guesses about me. If you can refute what I write I will read your posts and will gladly comment back.

 

[love2obey]

Some attend to build up. Some attend to tear down.

As I am sure you will agree - everyone has free will and choose what they will -- even if they choose to attend church.

he said that he used to preach and teach. I wonder where. He keeps talking about SDA teachings on the Sabbath ritual like the Jews do. And many other things that he is so way off like he has never ever attended an SDA church.
My wife is an ex-catholic and she knows their doctrines very well.

 

[Bob S]

man was created in God's image, perfect, but chose otherwise. Jesus is the way for us to be restored back to what we used to be before sin.
WE SLAVE OURSELVES WHEN WE SIN. GOD MADE US TO BE FREE.

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Come is present tense. Anyone who indicates they have conquered sin is just "pulling our leg" (old cliche). Jesus forgives our sins, but does not keep us from sinning.

 

[love2obey]

Instead of telling me what you "think" about what I have done why didn't you refute what I wrote?

I simply do not believe the teachings of the SDA church. I do believe Ellen White was truly a false prophet. I not only believe she was I can prove it over and over. The ones who truly believe she was a prophet tend to become legalistic.

I think it is you that tells me you do not use her writings to form your opinions (beliefs). The whole system is stamped with her approval and you are parroting her and probably do not realize doing so. Your beliefs are not all Biblical and follow what she taught. This is not a forum on Ellen White, so I will refrain from writing any more about her.

Also, this forum is not about what I do or do not do. Please refrain from writing unknown guesses about me. If you can refute what I write I will read your posts and will gladly comment back.

so it is SDA teaching that the Sabbath is a commandment of God? therefore you dont believe it.

I believe that we teach to others what God tells us to believe in, His word, the bible.
On Ms. White, you are the one who keeps bringing her up. No one else. since it is not about her as you said, I dont get into her. This is christian forum and I read God's word and do His will and no one else.

 

[Bob S]

Some attend to build up. Some attend to tear down.

As I am sure you will agree - everyone has free will and choose what they will -- even if they choose to attend church.

Do you know anyone who is attending that is tearing down? Sounds fishy to me. Those who are teaching a false Gospel should come under criticism. Anytime I write something that you think is wrong please refute me with the correct thought. Instead of all the personal attacks why not defend your position.

 

[Bob S]

so it is SDA teaching that the Sabbath is a commandment of God? therefore you dont believe it.

I believe that we teach to others what God tells us to believe in, His word, the bible.
On Ms. White, you are the one who keeps bringing her up. No one else. since it is not about her as you said, I dont get into her. This is christian forum and I read God's word and do His will and no one else.

I believe it was you that wrote: "I wonder if you ever attended an SDA church". You keep questioning me personally, so I tried to tell you why I am not SDA anymore. Yes, one of the reasons I am not SDA is their belief in having to "keep" the Sabbath and I have given you text after text to prove my position. I was SDA for 40 years and know the doctrines forward and backward. The 10 commandments, with its ritual Sabbath law, was abrogated at the Cross. It was a temporary law given only to Israel and ended when the new covenant was ushered in at Calvary. The 10 were the guide for Israel, the Holy Spirit is the Christian's guide. 2Cor3:7-11, 1Jn3:19-24. The moral parts of the 10 are included in the law of love.

 

[Bob S]

1John where are you?
What happened to the debate we were having. here is where we were:

No He didn't 1Jn. He said: 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Well, you read the verse wrong, but you do contend that Jesus didn't do what He came to do by writing "Not all has been fulfilled, there still remains prophecy that has not yet come to pass.", so there is more for Him to do at some point according to you. If that is true then we have no right to take one jot or one tittle out of Torah. We are still fully under all the laws of the Torah. There are no excuses. The sacrificial system of the Torah is still in effect. The Temple must be rebuilt and the Levitical priesthood restored. All of the 613 laws of Torah must be kept by the persons responsible.

Really, do you not see the folly of your stance?

 

[Bob S]

Reading the Bible is such a great idea for avoiding false assertions.

If you will take time to read your post you will find you made some false assertions. I made the statement that God never ever asked any other nation to remember creation. Your answer does not change the fact. It does not say to remember.

Now to what I really meant to say. I meant to say God never asked any other nation to remember Sabbath. Sorry for the confusion. I wrote the wrong thing, but your rebuttal still didn't change what I wrote.

Rev 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people; 7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

"from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

Ex 20:11
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.


John 1:1-5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

 

[1John2:4]

John 1:17 and 15:10 are great for starters. Mat 5 also comes to mind.

bugkiller

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we saw His glory, glory in the same manner as the only child of the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John bore witness concerning Him and cried out saying, "This One was He of Whom I said, 'The One Who is coming after me has been before me, because He is more prominent than I."' 16 Beacuse we took grace upon grace from His fullness: 17 for the Torah was given through Moses, the grace and truth came through Yeshua Messiah 18. No one has ever seen God: the only Son of God, the One Who was in the bosom of the Father. That One declared Him.

I believe this passage really does not have anything to do with changing God's commandment if you read it in context, I see the author establishing Yeshua as Mesiah, Grace upon grace looks like it could mean teaching upon teaching. The Torah is light Yeshua is light, John is really pin pointing how Yeshua is the one true Messiah the Son of the living God. Good observation on this one, I enjoyed digging in. Remember Yeshua also said "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' chair, therefore everything which they which they would say to you, you must do and keep, but you must not do according to their works, for they are saying but not doing" Matthew 23:2-4

 

[1John2:4]

John 1:17 and 15:10 are great for starters. Mat 5 also comes to mind.

bugkiller

Matthew 5
The wonderful sermon on the mount, does not prove the commandments of God were changed by Yeshua. The people had strayed from the true teaching by adding vein tradition. This is why Yeshua talks about "you heard it is said" those were added with the Talmudic Oral Law "it is written" was the truth from the Torah. I would love to post the whole thing and point this out to you, but instead, do you have anything from Matthew 5 -7 in particular that proves Yeshua is abolishing Torah and establishing new rules?

 

[1John2:4]

Have you read LK 24:44?

bugkiller

Matthew 24:44 And He said to them, "These messages I told you while I was still with you, that it is necessary for everything to be fulfilled that has been written about Me in the Torah of Moses the Prophets and the Psalms." Then He opened their minds and they understood the scriptures:and He said to them that "Thus it has been written that the Messiah would suffer and be raised from the dead on the third day,

These are prophecy fulfilled (Isa 53, Psalms 22) absolutely. However not all prophecy had been fulfilled such as Isa 11:6 or Isa 65:25 when the lion will lie down with the lamb and shall eat straw like an ox. Or the day of the Lord and the millennial reign, new heaven new earth, none of that has been fulfilled.

1Jn, please, it is one thing to tell me why you do not agree and your answer which tells me nothing. By the way I think you have misinterpreted what I wrote. Lets try it again. Jesus was under the law speaking to Jews that were under the law. The new covenant was not in force yet. Jesus had to tell them that the Torah was still the law and not one jot nor one tittle would pass from the law until He fulfilled all the Torah. Lk24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Friend, not All has been fulfilled yet, so much prophecy has not come to pass. He will fulfill it on his next return. The lion does not lay down with the lamb Isa 11:6 or Isa 65:25. The new heaven and new earth are not yet here. The day of the Lord has not yet come to pass. The wedding feast has not yet happened. Through Yeshua, God made a way that all could be saved, the children that Rachel wept for (Jer 31:14, Matthew 2:18) would come home. Because The house of Israel, Ephriam, Jacob was rebellious and the Lord sent her away, divorced her Jer 3:8, Isa 50:1. He died so He could come back and marry Her again. According to His own law He cannot enter into a marriage covenent with the same woman once He sent her away with a certificate of divorce. Dueteronomy 21-24. He comes back for her, dies for her, for us, it's such an amazing love, that God has for us! Many people just gloss over Jerimiah 31 and just quote 31:30 to proof text their own theology Isaiah and Jerimiah both encompass this prophecy, that is why in Luke 24:45 their minds were opened to the scripture.

 

[1John2:4]

1John where are you?
What happened to the debate we were having. here is where we were:

No He didn't 1Jn. He said: 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Well, you read the verse wrong, but you do contend that Jesus didn't do what He came to do by writing "Not all has been fulfilled, there still remains prophecy that has not yet come to pass.", so there is more for Him to do at some point according to you. If that is true then we have no right to take one jot or one tittle out of Torah. We are still fully under all the laws of the Torah. There are no excuses. The sacrificial system of the Torah is still in effect. The Temple must be rebuilt and the Levitical priesthood restored. All of the 613 laws of Torah must be kept by the persons responsible.

Really, do you not see the folly of your stance?

I chose not to debate on the Shabbat so I took a little break, I am really enjoying this debate thanks so much for participating with me.

Yes, that is right nothing has passed from the law, the thing is we are in despora with no temple and no priesthood. A great example to follow would be of course our Messiah but also Daniel he stayed true to God under the system of Babylon while he was in despora. He kept his Body pure from the Kings food and he and his companions did not give into idolotry. We even find Paul and his companions taking a vow which included sacrifice in the temple in Acts 14:12. And in the millennial reign when God sets up His system we will all worship Him as prescribed in the Torah. Eze 43-45 Isa 66:20, Zec 14,