Annihilationism

[ewq1938]

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” rsv​

The smoke goes up forever that does not mean they are alive. Thew no rest day and night refers to the timef the tribulation when they worship the beast and it's image.


​

The worm does not ever die because it continually feeds upon its own wicked person.

How does a worm survive the fire? How can it eat someone forever if it's eating them? They would have to constantly be resurrected for to be true and they are resurrected only once and not to immortal life. The worm is a clear metaphor regarding them being destroyed.

The wicked person cannot be annihilated because it must be the continual food for its own worm.

It doesn't say the worm feeds on them forever, you insert that into the verse.

​

Hades was the abode of all the dead, both saved and lost, before the death of Jesus Christ. Hell was a part of Hades and so was the bosom of Abraham a part of Hades.

Hades is not part of the bosom which is heaven. They are two places separated by a wide gulf.

It was Jesus' death which re-opened the entrance to heaven. Adam's sin closed the entrance to heaven and Jesus' sacrifice re-opened the entrance.

That is not scriptural. Heaven wasnt closed nor was it opened.

The Rich Man was being tormented in the flames of hell. No one is burned up in hell.

The rich man is in Hades not the lake of fire. The rich man water water, he isn't on fire himself. It's simply very hot there but he isn't being burned alive or anything.

People are continually tormented by the flames of hell; they are not burned up/annihilated by the flames.

Scripture states otherwise.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.

"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14,15.

"The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved." Psalm 75:3.

"Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more." Psalm 104:35.

"Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be." Psalm 59:13.

"The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalm 145:20

"When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: Psalm 92:7

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be as stubble; and the day cometh that shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1

"And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed." Isaiah 1:28

"Enter ye in at the straight gate: for wide is the fate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat." Matthew 7:13

"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalms 37:20

​

 

[StanJ]

The smoke goes up forever that does not mean they are alive. Thew no rest day and night refers to the timef the tribulation when they worship the beast and it's image.​

There would be no smoke if there was no torment and day and night for all time means just that day and night for all time. I can't see anyone not understanding this and less they were oppositionally biased.

Sorry Jan... couldn't help but interject here. I'll leave the rest for your response.

 

[ewq1938]

Adam and Eve did not physically die as soon as they ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Instead, their sin separated them from God's fellowship.

​

No it didn't. It caused them to be cast out of the garden and separated from the tree of life, not from God.

 

[Jan001]

Not possible, given what Paul writes here where he clearly places both judgment and punishment in the future:

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

Romans 2:4-8
Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. rsv​

Each person receives his own personal judgment on the day he physically dies and he then goes to his own place at that time. On the day of the final judgment God reveals the personal judgments of all persons to all other persons.

Acts 1:25
to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.” rsv
​

Judas betrayed Jesus and then he hanged himself. He immediately was judged and then he went to his own place for eternity. Even though Judas was already judged 2000 years ago, we will still all see his judgment on the day of the final judgment. There is no time in eternity. There is only time on earth. There is no yesterday in heaven and there is no tomorrow in heaven. There is only the present day, today, in heaven. All things past, present, and future on earth are all present to God in heaven.

Hebrews 9:27
And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, rsv
​

Every person is judged as soon as he physically dies. If he was an unrepentant evildoer, he will immediately enter into hell. God's wrath against this person begins at this time and it continues until the day of wrath/final judgment and it will continue after the day of the final judgment for eternity.

Luke 16:22-26
The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz′arus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz′arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz′arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
​

The rich man died and his physical body was buried. His spirit immediately went to hell, a part of Hades. He can never, ever leave there. Please note that he does not need his physical body to experience the torments of hell. He experiences all of the torments of hell's flames in his spirit/soul as if he still had his physical body.

People are personally judged as soon as they physically die. They do not wait until the day of wrath to be judged. Their personal judgments will be made known to all people on the day of wrath/day of final judgment.

​

 

[Jan001]

Does it bother you that the text says he's in Hades?

Hell is a part of Hades. So, no, it does not bother me at all.

 

[ewq1938]

Hell is a part of Hades. So, no, it does not bother me at all.

Why do people have to leave hell in order to be cast into the lake of fire if they are the same place?

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 

[Jan001]

Those whose destiny is the lake of fire, the second death are already dead. They were dead in their life in their body of flesh, and they are still just as dead after they are dead. Never were they alive spiritually. To be spiritually dead is to not be alive in the spirit. The only way we become spiritually alive is to be born of God, otherwise all are dead. God's judgment is fair and righteous and all these dead ones deserve the second death. They being dead died in life as dead men, and they at the judgment still being dead can not reign with God and Christ, never having been born again. Jesus tells us about them this, 'let the dead bury the dead, but as for you, come and follow me'. So does Christ relate to all those He has foreknown beforehand in love. Ephesians 2.

To have life according to your own works, is specifically taught against. Here in Rev 20, the judgment is either the second death or the Book of Life, according to their works. The Book of Life has the names of all those born of God, given to Christ by the Father, John 17. Christ had already descended into hell and delivered the righteous saved dead, OT saints and led them captive, taking them into heaven. So the only ones left in Hell are these new dead who died in their sins after the resurrection and the ones who died. To die in your sins means your sins are not forgiven for the sake of His name, and that means eternal torment. That rich man in hell is still in hell today 2000 years later.

The lake of fire second death has a sense of finality, a final judgment, hell being a temporary abode of the dead. Hell ends in this creation with the creation of new heavens and new earth, so this is where all dead go, while all who are alive reign with God and Christ in a new universe.


Rev 20

The Great White Throne Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

People can become born again and then fall away from the faith by their own disobedience to God's commandments. All people, both good and evil, will be judged according to their own works.

Luke 8:13
And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. rsv

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. rsv

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body. rsv

Romans 2:5-8
But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. rsv
​

Also, please read Matthew 25:31-46. Everyone is judged according to their own works.

​

 

[Jan001]

The smoke goes up forever that does not mean they are alive. Thew no rest day and night refers to the timef the tribulation when they worship the beast and it's image.


​

How does a worm survive the fire? How can it eat someone forever if it's eating them? They would have to constantly be resurrected for to be true and they are resurrected only once and not to immortal life. The worm is a clear metaphor regarding them being destroyed.





It doesn't say the worm feeds on them forever, you insert that into the verse.

​

Hades is not part of the bosom which is heaven. They are two places separated by a wide gulf.






That is not scriptural. Heaven wasnt closed nor was it opened.




The rich man is in Hades not the lake of fire. The rich man water water, he isn't on fire himself. It's simply very hot there but he isn't being burned alive or anything.




Scripture states otherwise.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4.

"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:14,15.

"The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved." Psalm 75:3.

"Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more." Psalm 104:35.

"Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be." Psalm 59:13.

"The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalm 145:20

"When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever: Psalm 92:7

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be as stubble; and the day cometh that shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1

"And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed." Isaiah 1:28

"Enter ye in at the straight gate: for wide is the fate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat." Matthew 7:13

"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalms 37:20

We disagree.

 

[expos4ever]

Well if you're not going to accept God's Word as to what the people at that time and culture meant by the word 'destroy', then you show us how it was understood then, using Scripture.

An invalid request, if you are asking me to use Scripture to define this word. The point is that the word "destroy" certainly meant something in that culture entirely apart from Scripture. And the writer of Scripture most likely used that word in the way others in that culture would use that word. Unless there are powerful non-circular arguments to the effect that we not use the "nominal" reading from that culture, that is what we should do.

If you were to ask me to provide a "definition" of the word "destroy" as used in that culture, that would indeed be a valid request.

 

[Jan001]

There would be no smoke if there was no torment and day and night for all time means just that day and night for all time. I can't see anyone not understanding this and less they were oppositionally biased.

Sorry Jan... couldn't help but interject here. I'll leave the rest for your response.

Thank you for your reply to this poster. I don't have any more info to add.

 

[expos4ever]

Well maybe you can show us exactly what textbook you're talking about or referring to but in the meantime I can assume that the word of God is true and accurate and inspired because it is.

The irony is that the transcript of this thread raises serious doubts about whether you believe the Bible is fully inspired.

1. You place the meting out of punishment at death while Paul places it at the Great White Throne judgement.

2. You deny that Romans 2 deals with a universal judgment of all human beings, both Jew and Gentile.

 

[expos4ever]

Apparently you want every word used to be used in its broadest meaning possible and that's just not how the English language works, nor the Greek, nor the Hebrew, for that matter.

Please defend this claim about how English, Greek, and Hebrew work - I think you are making this up. But, please, prove me wrong by citing any reputable source that indicates the "nominal" (default) reading is not the "broadest" one.

In any event, this may not be that important since, in English, when we say:

"X is destroyed"

....we generally do not mean:

"Everything about X is destroyed, except the most essential part of X"

It would be absurd to exclude the most essential part of X from the scope of application of "destroy". And yet that is exactly what one does if one argues thus:

"The wicked are destroyed" means "The bodies of the wicked are destroyed but the central essence of the wicked - their spirit is preserved.

I would not want to have to defend such a view on things, but this appears to me to be what you are arguing.

 

[Jan001]

No it didn't. It caused them to be cast out of the garden and separated from the tree of life, not from God.

Casting them out of the garden did separate them from God. Adam and Eve became spiritual enemies of God when they sinned. They lost their fellowship with God because of their sin.

Romans 5:1-11
Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God. 3 More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us.

6 While we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Why, one will hardly die for a righteous man—though perhaps for a good man one will dare even to die. 8 But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 Not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received our reconciliation. rsv​

Adam caused the alienation of all mankind from God's presence. No one could enter into heaven until after Jesus died on the cross. John 3:13 Adam became God's spiritual enemy when he sinned; he lost his fellowship with God when he sinned. Jesus Christ reconciled mankind to God by His sacrificial death on the cross.

We who are spiritually born again are now called God's friends. A righteous person is a spiritual friend of God.

An unrighteous person is a spiritual enemy of God. God still loves the unrighteous person and desires that he repent and become righteous and thereby become His friend.

James 2:23
and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. rsv​

 

[Jan001]

Why do people have to leave hell in order to be cast into the lake of fire if they are the same place?

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

The Book of Revelation uses symbolic language. This verse simply means that we will all see the personal judgments of every person who has ever lived at this last judgment after Jesus returns to earth for His second appearing/coming. The last/final judgment is a ratification by all righteous people of Jesus' Christ's judgment of each and every person which was done immediately after the person died. Hebrews 9:27, John 5:22, 1 Corinthians 6:2-3

The people in hell do not ever get to leave hell. The people in heaven will somehow see the people in hell and their personal judgments while they are still in hell on the day of the final/last judgment. The people in hell are already in the lake of fire and they will never be able to leave it. The Book of Revelation uses symbolic language to explain spiritual truths. It is not always easy to understand symbolic language.

 

[Jan001]

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked perish;
the enemies of the Lord are like the glory of the pastures,
they vanish—like smoke they vanish away. rsv
​

Poetic language.

The wicked people will not get away with their wickedness. They will eventually be removed from the presence of the righteous. The wicked will be punished for their wickedness.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” rsv​

​

 

[StanJ]

Please defend this claim about how English, Greek, and Hebrew work - I think you are making this up. But, please, prove me wrong by citing any reputable source that indicates the "nominal" (default) reading is not the "broadest" one.

In any event, this may not be that important since, in English, when we say:

"X is destroyed"

....we generally do not mean:

"Everything about X is destroyed, except the most essential part of X"

It would be absurd to exclude the most essential part of X from the scope of application of "destroy". And yet that is exactly what one does if one argues thus:

"The wicked are destroyed" means "The bodies of the wicked are destroyed but the central essence of the wicked - their spirit is preserved.

I would not want to have to defend such a view on things, but this appears to me to be what you are arguing.

How can I possibly defend something that you don't understand? You ask God what he meant in Genesis 6:13 & 17 when He destroyed all life and the world. Have you noticed the world is still here ? What about 1 Peter 4:6? Why would God be judging the dead if they don't exist?
It's a long shot, but maybe he can get through to you because apparently nobody else can despite all the reasoning in the world your mind is like a steel trap and won't allow anything in. Another example of your true inculcation.

 

[sdowney717]

People can become born again and then fall away from the faith by their own disobedience to God's commandments. All people, both good and evil, will be judged according to their own works.

Luke 8:13
And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. rsv

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. rsv

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body. rsv

Romans 2:5-8
But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. rsv
​

Also, please read Matthew 25:31-46. Everyone is judged according to their own works.

​

Salvation is by faith alone.
Notice that all are judged by works is true, but for those born of God, they are saved, their judgment is regarding rewards. The sheep vs goats, well all the saved people actually do good works since that is their new nature. Those works God had created for them to do beforehand siing we are His workmanship.

Notice v8, 9, 10 clearly teaches this.

Ephesians 2New King James Version (NKJV)
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[Timothew]

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. rsv

​

Perhaps it the word "perish" that you want me to discuss?

​

Whoever believes in Jesus Christ shall not perish/be condemned to eternal hell fire.

What is the opposite of eternal life? It is eternal condemnation. Eternal condemnation subjects a person to the eternal torments in the eternal lake of fire/hell.


Perish means to be condemned to the lake of fire. No one is annihilated in the lake of fire. The smoke of their torment lasts forever and ever and their torments never cease. Their torment never lessens in severity.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” rsv
​

No one is annihilated in the lake of fire. The RICH MAN was not annihilated and neither will anyone else in the lake of fire be annihilated.

​

​

Perish means to die. To not have eternal life. The opposite of eternal life is not eternal condemnation. The opposite of eternal life is eternal death or a temporary life. So John 3:16 is saying exactly what I am saying.

 

[Hieronymus]

Will this do for a citation? ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 71 times, 83%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.

Yes, and all of it has to do with death and destruction, but still you hold on to eternal life in hell?
(or did i misunderstand you?)

 

[Timothew]

A simple question:
Since the gift of God is eternal life in Christ, how can it be possible that everyone receives this gift some in bliss and others in torment?