Jo Cox, Labour MP, killed - fatal gunshot & stab wounds

[Redac]

And yeah, this murder is just senseless and sad.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

But it was a right wing nationalist that did this.

At this point, I don't think anybody has even been charged.

 

[zephyrWiccan]

At this point, I don't think anybody has even been charged.

The shooter/stabber Thomas Mair does not have to be "charged" yet to be a right-wing nationalist.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Being a "right-wing nationalist" hardly proves that he's the shooter/stabber.

 

[Nithavela]

Wait, who hacked NIthavelas account?

Nobody, I'm just tired of this issue.

 

[TheBear]

By a suspected right-wing terrorist/extremist.

“He was shouting ‘Britain first’ when he was doing it and being arrested. He was pinned down by two police officers and she was taken away in an ambulance.”

“He shot this lady and then shot her again,” he said. “He lent down. Someone was wrestling with him and he was wielding a knife and lunging at her. Three times she was shot. People were trying to help her."

Labour MP Jo Cox dies after being shot and stabbed

My thoughts and condolences to her family and friends.

 

[Oafman]

They might have been guilty of fascism...but they certainly were not "far right wing"

All facism is far right. It's anti-egalitarian and corporatist. Its struggle is based around racial supremacy (as opposed to that of the left, which is based on class).

They were/are in favor of
Gun Control
Socialized Medicine
Socialized Education
Heavy government regulation over agriculture & banking
Very much in favor of strong unionized workforce
Very much in favor of expansive social safety nets

I could pick apart every one of these, but for brevity I'm going to stick to the most egregious, which I've highlighted.

Hitler dismantled all German trade unions within months of coming to power. He arrested their leaders, confiscated their assets and disbanded all of them. He replaced them with the German Labour Front which, while ostensibly to maintain favour with the workers, in reality it existed to exert control over the workers. It was a tool of the state - the antithesis of the trade union movement, which exists to resist the state and the bourgeoisie. The Nazis dismantled the apparatus of the working classes, which Hitler considered to be tools of socialism.

Briefly on the others: Gun control is irrelevant. Though it reveals how you are viewing things through a contemporary lens. Gun control is only a differentiator between right and left in modern day American politics. It was not an issue in 1930s Europe. And in any case, the Nazis never removed weapons from their own population (except from the untermensch of course) - only from those they occupied.

Govt regulation over banking? Hitler privatised Germany's 4 biggest banks, which the Wiemar Republic had nationalised in response to the Great Depression. He also privatised the railways, the steel industry and the shipbuilding industry. And as regards health & education, both of these had been state controlled for decades when Hitler came to power, and he used both as functions of the state to impose nationalist ideals (favouring Aryans, social Darwinism, indoctrinating youth).

People can't just attach "left wing" and "right wing" adjectives arbitrarily to abhorrent acts simply to smear their political opponents...if you're going to associate an act to a "wing", you need to be able to demonstrate that the person was affiliated with some movement or idea that's actually part of said "wing".

...and like I mentioned, simply saying "Britain First" only indicates that the person was an extremist nationalist...it doesn't indicate what their attitudes were on other political matters in general.

This isn't about smearing the mainstream. This man's actions do not reflect on conservatism, in the slightest. Though they do reflect on more extreme brands of nationalism, and on the degree of xenophobia which has attached itself to the Leave campaign.

 

[Oafman]

But unless they're actively inciting imminent violence then I wouldn't want them to be blamed for anything and certainly not legally.

No, they can't be blamed directly.

But if you shout 'BREAKING POINT!!1!' enough times, I don't think you can be that surprised when someone breaks.

 

[Goonie]

All facism is far right. It's anti-egalitarian and corporatist. Its struggle is based around racial supremacy (as opposed to that of the left, which is based on class).


I could pick apart every one of these, but for brevity I'm going to stick to the most egregious, which I've highlighted.

Hitler dismantled all German trade unions within months of coming to power. He arrested their leaders, confiscated their assets and disbanded all of them. He replaced them with the German Labour Front which, while ostensibly to maintain favour with the workers, in reality it existed to exert control over the workers. It was a tool of the state - the antithesis of the trade union movement, which exists to resist the state and the bourgeoisie. The Nazis dismantled the apparatus of the working classes, which Hitler considered to be tools of socialism.

Briefly on the others: Gun control is irrelevant. Though it reveals how you are viewing things through a contemporary lens. Gun control is only a differentiator between right and left in modern day American politics. It was not an issue in 1930s Europe. And in any case, the Nazis never removed weapons from their own population (except from the untermensch of course) - only from those they occupied.

Govt regulation over banking? Hitler privatised Germany's 4 biggest banks, which the Wiemar Republic had nationalised in response to the Great Depression. He also privatised the railways, the steel industry and the shipbuilding industry. And as regards health & education, both of these had been state controlled for decades when Hitler came to power, and he used both as functions of the state to impose nationalist ideals (favouring Aryans, social Darwinism, indoctrinating youth).


This isn't about smearing the mainstream. This man's actions do not reflect on conservatism, in the slightest. Though they do reflect on more extreme brands of nationalism, and on the degree of xenophobia which has attached itself to the Leave campaign.

Thank you, I was about to reply to this, then saw your response, cannot but agree.

The fact is that hitler was an opportunist, who used any means to achieve his goals.

 

[Hetta]

They might have been guilty of fascism...but they certainly were not "far right wing"

They were/are in favor of
Gun Control
Socialized Medicine
Socialized Education
Heavy government regulation over agriculture & banking
Very much in favor of strong unionized workforce
Very much in favor of expansive social safety nets

Those don't sound like "right wing values" to me...

People can't just attach "left wing" and "right wing" adjectives arbitrarily to abhorrent acts simply to smear their political opponents...if you're going to associate an act to a "wing", you need to be able to demonstrate that the person was affiliated with some movement or idea that's actually part of said "wing".

...and like I mentioned, simply saying "Britain First" only indicates that the person was an extremist nationalist...it doesn't indicate what their attitudes were on other political matters in general.

Hitler banned trade unions, actually. Look it up. As for the "social safety nets" - conservatives would rather that people died in the streets, I suppose. Oh no, I forget - "the church will look after the poor." Except they can't or won't or don't. That's why a safety net was needed in the first place, and that's why it is still needed now.

 

[Nithavela]

Didn't think you'd godwin this thread. Live and learn.

 

[Goonie]

Didn't think you'd godwin this thread. Live and learn.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

could pick apart every one of these, but for brevity I'm going to stick to the most egregious, which I've highlighted.

Hitler dismantled all German trade unions within months of coming to power. He arrested their leaders, confiscated their assets and disbanded all of them.

If you'll notice, in my original post, I said "were/are"...meaning, I wasn't limiting "Nazi" to just it's 1930's iteration...I was also referring to modern Neo-Nazi's as well. That's partially my bad...I realize now I should've clarified that more.

Here's a snippet from an article from a Neo-Nazi (from a website that I won't link to due to CF rules)
**************************************************************
Guess what American workers? Now that there are no labor unions, there is no middle-class and you will soon be making $2.40 per day again.

Congratulations on your "freedom." It seems that these "freedom loving" market worshipers are up to their old tricks with the Mexicans too (They turned Detroit black a long time ago).

In Michigan, we passed the "right to work law" which essentially means "right to fire" for any reason except for race, religion and gender." If anyone ever doubts that the biggest enemy facing white nationalists and Christians are capitalists and libertarians (a.k.a panicky "conservative" Jews just off the boat from "Communist" Russia) just read your history books.
****************************************************************
...they go on to blame it on a "zionist government agenda"...blah blah blah...typical white power nonsense, etc...

If you were to remove the racial and antisemitic undertones of this...it'd sound very similar to what a far-left democrat might say.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Hitler banned trade unions, actually. Look it up. As for the "social safety nets" - conservatives would rather that people died in the streets, I suppose. Oh no, I forget - "the church will look after the poor." Except they can't or won't or don't. That's why a safety net was needed in the first place, and that's why it is still needed now.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...shot-stab-wounds.7951971/page-3#post-69756523

I addressed this in my post right above...my reference to "Nazi" wasn't limited to the 1930's iteration of the Nazi party in Germany.


I said "were/are" in my original post...I should've clarified that more.

 

[Oafman]

If you'll notice, in my original post, I said "were/are"...meaning, I wasn't limiting "Nazi" to just it's 1930's iteration...I was also referring to modern Neo-Nazi's as well. That's partially my bad...I realize now I should've clarified that more.

Here's a snippet from an article from a Neo-Nazi (from a website that I won't link to due to CF rules)
**************************************************************
Guess what American workers? Now that there are no labor unions, there is no middle-class and you will soon be making $2.40 per day again.

Congratulations on your "freedom." It seems that these "freedom loving" market worshipers are up to their old tricks with the Mexicans too (They turned Detroit black a long time ago).

In Michigan, we passed the "right to work law" which essentially means "right to fire" for any reason except for race, religion and gender." If anyone ever doubts that the biggest enemy facing white nationalists and Christians are capitalists and libertarians (a.k.a panicky "conservative" Jews just off the boat from "Communist" Russia) just read your history books.
****************************************************************
...they go on to blame it on a "zionist government agenda"...blah blah blah...typical white power nonsense, etc...

If you were to remove the racial and antisemitic undertones of this...it'd sound very similar to what a far-left democrat might say.

Individuals can hold a wide range of views, often inconsistent. But we're not discussing the views of one individual. What does this guy know of history, politics or economics? I'm not interested in his opinion. It does not change what the Nazis were.

 

[TheBear]

There are many people in the Labor Party who want to leave the the EU as well.

 

[Oafman]

There are many people in the Labor Party who wan to leave the the EU as well.

There are only a handful of Labour MPs who want to leave.

There are a large number of their traditional supporters who want to leave though (working class communities who blame Labour for immigration), but not so much Labour members. There are also the lefties of course, who think it's harder to fight capitalism in a capitalist club like the EU. But they're small in number.

 

[TheBear]

Is that referendum vote still set for the 23rd?

 

[Oafman]

Is that referendum vote still set for the 23rd?

Yeah, they can't move the date, especially so close to it.

Campaigning has been suspended by both sides, but my guess is it will start up again tomorrow.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Individuals can hold a wide range of views, often inconsistent. But we're not discussing the views of one individual. What does this guy know of history, politics or economics? I'm not interested in his opinion. It does not change what the Nazis were.

...but you can't discount what the neo-Nazis are today either. They still have the antisemitic views of the original Nazis...however, they're very much pro-socialism, anti-capitalism, pro-union, and in favor of expansive safety nets, as well as being against privatization of banks. If you read any of their literature or propaganda materials, it's pretty evident, they have more in common with ultra-left Americans than they do with ultra-right Americans. (if we ignore the racial undertones and just focus on government policies and the views on the role of government)