Jo Cox, Labour MP, killed - fatal gunshot & stab wounds

[ThatRobGuy]

By a suspected right-wing terrorist/extremist.

I agreed with everything you said...except for trying to make it about "wings"

This person was committing an act of terror...they were an extremist. However, nationalism and conservatism are not synonymous with each other. The idea of Nationalism knows no 'wing'. There have been nationalists who are right wing (like the KKK), and there have been nationalists who are left wing (like Nazis)

I don't know if it was your reasoning for saying it (forgive me if it wasn't), but people like to toss "right wing/conservative" in as an adjective to sort poke the other side.

 

[willowsbible]

Nithavela, can't really blame you for not wanting to go down that avenue either given how the other thread on the topic has gone. Turned into a total US gun nut member-waving competition out of nowhere.

And yet you're posting there in that thread.
The disrespect there is understood now. It's only a little handful that derail the thread and defecate on the loss of a mother of three. While this one is let to go as it should because people asking it not to be derailed is being respected.

Enormously insightful.

 

[Oafman]

The idea of Nationalism knows no 'wing'.

Nationalism is a broad term. But the brand we're discussing is right wing. The sort of nationalism that is typically aligned with xenophobia and tribalism, and in extremes can become facism.

The word 'nationalist' also gets used to describe those who seek independence for a region. The Scottish National Party are nationalists, but of course not at all xenophobic, and actually quite left wing in many ways

nationalists who are left wing (like Nazis)

Are you being serious?!

The Nazis were facists. Extreme nationalists. On the far right.

 

[nightflight]

Perhaps the threads should be combined.

 

[Hetta]

I saw this too and was horrified. I was also moved by how unarmed local people brought the guy down. English people need to become more afraid of guns I think. It's as well he didn't kill anyone else.

>> ready for the argument that if the Brits were armed, none of this would have happened. <eye roll>

 

[Gadarene]

Isn't Britain First a right wing, fascist hate group? I saw this too and was horrified.

It could be in reference to them, "Britain First" has also been used as a slogan by the Brexit campaign.

But hey, if I learned anything from the recent Orlando shooting, just because he referenced a particular group doesn't mean any connection can be presumed. Right?

 

[Hetta]

The Nazis were facists. Extreme nationalists. On the far right.

They think that "national socialism" is the same thing as socialism. They won't actually learn the difference.

 

[Hetta]

It could be in reference to them, "Britain First" has also been used as a slogan by the Brexit campaign.

I deleted it. Because knee jerk assumptions are stupid.

 

[Gadarene]

I deleted it. Because knee jerk assumptions are stupid.

I don't see it as that unlikely that his political preferences might have had some influence on his decision.

But unless they're actively inciting imminent violence then I wouldn't want them to be blamed for anything and certainly not legally.

This is already being used to unfairly tar the Brexit campaign over here, hence my somewhat snarky edit about the reaction in Orlando, which has about-faced when it's an attacker claiming a connection to a far right, non-minority political group.

 

[TerranceL]

You are allowed to own guns with a permit if you have a reason to own them, like when you are a hunter or sports shooter. Owning a semiautomatic pistol is banned since 1997, but of course, there are illegal handguns still around.

Could we perhaps not make this about gun control?

Wait, who hacked NIthavelas account?

 

[zephyrWiccan]

I agreed with everything you said...except for trying to make it about "wings"

This person was committing an act of terror...they were an extremist. However, nationalism and conservatism are not synonymous with each other. The idea of Nationalism knows no 'wing'. There have been nationalists who are right wing (like the KKK), and there have been nationalists who are left wing (like Nazis)

I don't know if it was your reasoning for saying it (forgive me if it wasn't), but people like to toss "right wing/conservative" in as an adjective to sort poke the other side.

Except the particular brand of nationalism we are speaking about, which espouse the views opposing Jo Cox, and which espouse this "britain first" view, is right wing nationalism. You are correct that there are left wing nationalists. But it was a right wing nationalist that did this.

 

[Hetta]

I don't see it as that unlikely that his political preferences might have had some influence on his decision.

But unless they're actively inciting imminent violence then I wouldn't want them to be blamed for anything and certainly not legally.

This is already being used to unfairly tar the Brexit campaign over here, hence my somewhat snarky edit about the reaction in Orlando, which has about-faced when it's an attacker claiming a connection to a far right, non-minority political group.

You want to leave? Do you think that people feel so strongly about leaving that they would kill over it? That seems so extreme. But I assume that the guy will turn out to have a psychological disorder of some kind.

 

[Gadarene]

You want to leave?

I actually do not.

But I'd rather not win by people propagandising events like this one.

Do you think that people feel so strongly about leaving that they would kill over it?

Yes, in a similar fashion to how some people want to kill pop stars after reading Catcher in the Rye. It happens.

That seems so extreme. But I assume that the guy will turn out to have a psychological disorder of some kind.

More than likely. I don't think it makes the ideologies involved irrelevant factors in these sorts of attacks, but then again, I don't think groups should be held totally accountable for the actions of their loopiest members.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

But it was a right wing nationalist that did this.

What are you basing that assessment off of? The fact that he yelled "Britain First"? ...the "my countrymen first" is a standard mentality for nationalists...right wing nationalists and left wing nationalists both say that sort of thing.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

The Nazis were facists. Extreme nationalists. On the far right.

They might have been guilty of fascism...but they certainly were not "far right wing"

They were/are in favor of
Gun Control
Socialized Medicine
Socialized Education
Heavy government regulation over agriculture & banking
Very much in favor of strong unionized workforce
Very much in favor of expansive social safety nets

Those don't sound like "right wing values" to me...

People can't just attach "left wing" and "right wing" adjectives arbitrarily to abhorrent acts simply to smear their political opponents...if you're going to associate an act to a "wing", you need to be able to demonstrate that the person was affiliated with some movement or idea that's actually part of said "wing".

...and like I mentioned, simply saying "Britain First" only indicates that the person was an extremist nationalist...it doesn't indicate what their attitudes were on other political matters in general.

 

[wing2000]

Her tweet from just yesterday included them:

I am sure her legacy will make them proud and will, along with their father, help lead them down the path of justice their mother took. Hopefully they will be able to retain their short precious memories of her as they grow older.

So sad and....the UK and those without a voice in Syria lost a valuable person....her strength apparently made her a target for the coward who ended her life.

 

[zephyrWiccan]

What are you basing that assessment off of? The fact that he yelled "Britain First"? ...the "my countrymen first" is a standard mentality for nationalists...right wing nationalists and left wing nationalists both say that sort of thing.

Based off of the fact that she is left wing, pro-refugee, anti-Brexit, and was attacked by a person yelling "Britain First" (which is an extremist right wing xenophobic nationalist organization which opposes each and every one of those positions). Not really that hard to figure out, bud.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Based off of the fact that she is left wing, pro-refugee, anti-Brexit, and was attacked by a person yelling "Britain First" (which is an extremist right wing xenophobic nationalist organization which opposes each and every one of those positions). Not really that hard to figure out, bud.

I wasn't aware that Britain first was the name of an organization...if that's the case, then you're probably right.

I thought he was just yelling "Britain first" as a general declaration like another other nationalist would say "my people first"

 

[zephyrWiccan]

I wasn't aware that Britain first was the name of an organization...if that's the case, then you're probably right.

I thought he was just yelling "Britain first" as a general declaration like another other nationalist would say "my people first"

IT is. One which holds the exact opposite positions as Jo Cox did on pretty much everything she was passionate about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain_First

Britain First is a far-right[11][13][14][15][16] and British nationalist[3] political party and movement formed in 2011 by former members of the British National Party (BNP).[15] The party is led by a former BNP councillor Paul Golding, and was founded by Jim Dowson, an anti-abortion campaigner linked to Ulster loyalist militants.[11]

Britain First campaigns primarily against immigration, multiculturalism and what it sees as the Islamisation of the United Kingdom, and advocates the preservation of traditional British culture. The group is inspired by Ulster loyalism and has a vigilante wing called the "Britain First Defence Force". It attracted attention by taking direct action such as protests outside homes of alleged Islamists, and what it describes as "Christian patrols" and "invasions" of British mosques,[15][16] and has been noted for its online activism.[17] The group's claim to be Christian has been condemned by all major denominations of the faith in the UK.[18] It has contested elections to the House of Commons, the European Parliament and the mayoralty of London, but has been unsuccessful in all of them.

Then of course on top of that it appears he subscribed to a RW white supremacist magazine in the past: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jo-cox-shooting-suspect-quiet-8212246

 

[Redac]

They might have been guilty of fascism...but they certainly were not "far right wing"

They were/are in favor of
Gun Control
Socialized Medicine
Socialized Education
Heavy government regulation over agriculture & banking
Very much in favor of strong unionized workforce
Very much in favor of expansive social safety nets

Those don't sound like "right wing values" to me...

Only if by "right wing" you mean classical liberalism and its derivative ideas. The right is also usually associated with traditionalism, monarchism, reactionaries, anti-egalitarianism, an emphasis on order and social cohesion over some liberal ideas of personal freedom, greater influence of religion on public life, social conservatism to one degree or another, etc.

It's one of those things that makes fascism and National Socialism kind of hard to place, and shows how unsatisfying a simple left-right spectrum can be.