Rapture timing

[vinsight4u]

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[Biblewriter]

The day of Christ is the day of our gathering. This is
also the day of the Lord. resurrection...of the just...
rapture

What scripture states that?

 

[Hazrus]

Biblewriter, thanks for the passages in Ezekiel. I must admit I couldn't refute them myself. I looked online and found this in relation to it:

Patently Symbolic Language

First, our prophecy contains a number of positive indicators that a symbolic interpretation is in order. Why, for example, is the identity of Gog so obscure and mysterious? What might God mean by it? Why does the number seven appear so frequently (38:1-6, 39:9, 12, 14)? Why do Gog and his hosts brandish six different kinds of weapons (six being the biblical number most frequently associated with man: Gen. 1:24-31, Rev. 13:18). Why does the Valley of Hamon Gog seem suddenly to turn into a city (39:15-16)? And why, in describing what appears to be a strictly local judgment, does God suddenly speak of shaking the whole earthwith his presence, and throwing down all mountains, pathways, and city walls, wherever they may be (38:20)?



Apparent Contradictions

Secondly, a literal approach to this prophecy brings it into direct conflict with the other OT prophecies of the Last Battle and the Day of the LORD (e.g., Joel 3, Daniel 7, Zechariah 12-14, etc.). While obviously speaking of the same eschatological event, these OTKP’s (Old Testament Kingdom Prophecies) differ among themselves regarding the exact identity of Israel’s final foe, the location of the final conflict, the nature and extent of Israel’s involvement in the fight, and the character of the divine intervention that finally resolves it. Our resulting choice is stark: Use the NCH (New Covenant Hermeneutic) to discern the “mystical” meaning of these texts, or go mad trying to resolve all the conflicts produced by prophetic literalism!

Are you able to refute this? I don't mean any disrespect; I just want to hear your argument as you are obviously very learned and have spent a long time studying this.

 

[Luke17:37]

You are simply assuming, without a shred of Biblical evidence that "the day of the Lord" and the rapture are the same event. The verse you quoted speaks of the rapture, not of "the day of the Lord."

As my brother JLB777 cited, Jesus appears a second time, not a second and third (Hebrews 9:28). This appearing is after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). The gathering (rapture) is after the resurrection of the dead in Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). The first resurrection includes those beheaded in the Tribulation (Revelation 20:4-6). Since the first resurrection includes the Tribulation dead, and since there is no gathering (rapture) before the resurrection, and since there is, by definition, no resurrection before the first resurrection, there is no gathering (rapture) before Jesus comes at the end of the Tribulation (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-21). Many will desire to see the days of the Son of Man prematurely (Luke 17:22) and many will be deceived by false returns (Matthew 24:23-26). He will be perceived by many as late (Luke 18:7-8, Matthew 24:48, Matthew 25:5, Matthew 25:19, 2 Peter 3:4). Please don't expect Him early--you might not have enough oil.

 

[Biblewriter]

Biblewriter, thanks for the passages in Ezekiel. I must admit I couldn't refute them myself. I looked online and found this in relation to it:

Patently Symbolic Language

First, our prophecy contains a number of positive indicators that a symbolic interpretation is in order. Why, for example, is the identity of Gog so obscure and mysterious? What might God mean by it? Why does the number seven appear so frequently (38:1-6, 39:9, 12, 14)? Why do Gog and his hosts brandish six different kinds of weapons (six being the biblical number most frequently associated with man: Gen. 1:24-31, Rev. 13:18). Why does the Valley of Hamon Gog seem suddenly to turn into a city (39:15-16)? And why, in describing what appears to be a strictly local judgment, does God suddenly speak of shaking the whole earthwith his presence, and throwing down all mountains, pathways, and city walls, wherever they may be (38:20)?

Almost all of scripture contains a typical significance that lies below the surface. Take, for instance, the two sons of Abraham. We are explicitly told that Agar (Old Testament Hagar) speaks of the Sinai covenant, while the other (Sarah) speaks of "the Jerusalem which is above." But this does not for a moment take away from the literal accuracy of the Biblical account of Abraham's two sons, the one by a slave woman, and the other by a free woman.

The valley of Hamon Gog does not "turn into" a city, but rather, a city there is mentioned. And the presence of God will indeed affect all flesh, throughout the entire world.

Apparent Contradictions

Secondly, a literal approach to this prophecy brings it into direct conflict with the other OT prophecies of the Last Battle and the Day of the LORD (e.g., Joel 3, Daniel 7, Zechariah 12-14, etc.). While obviously speaking of the same eschatological event, these OTKP’s (Old Testament Kingdom Prophecies) differ among themselves regarding the exact identity of Israel’s final foe, the location of the final conflict, the nature and extent of Israel’s involvement in the fight, and the character of the divine intervention that finally resolves it. Our resulting choice is stark: Use the NCH (New Covenant Hermeneutic) to discern the “mystical” meaning of these texts, or go mad trying to resolve all the conflicts produced by prophetic literalism!

Are you able to refute this? I don't mean any disrespect; I just want to hear your argument as you are obviously very learned and have spent a long time studying this.

Where does the idea come from that these various prophetic passages are "obviously speaking of the same eschatological event"? Actually, a detailed examination of the various prophecies concerning our Lord's return in power and glory to judge the wicked shows no less than five distinct battles or campaigns that will take place at this time. And the war during which these battles and campaigns will take place will actually occupy a significant length of time.

By a significant length of time, I do not mean a long war, but events that will require waiting for mankind to respond to what God has done. There are several such delays.

The first of these is a delay between the time when God suddenly appears and drives away the armies that are surrounding Jerusalem, destroying them in "the valley of Jehosaphat," and the time when the armies of the earth respond by assembling and coming down to Armageddon.

The second of these is a delay between the time when God sends the survivors of Armageddon to return and tell the world what thy have seen, and then the world responds by sending all Israel home.

The third of these is the time it will require for Israel to obey God's instructions to take vengeance on those who had tried to annihilate them.

And the last of these is the delay between the time when God settles Israel in their land and the time when Gog leads the world down in one final desperate attempt to destroy Israel.

I have not repeated all the scriptural references to show all this here, because I have already given them in this CF thread:


What Happens When Messiah Comes http://www.christianforums.com/t7324109-5/

 

[Biblewriter]

As my brother JLB777 cited, Jesus appears a second time, not a second and third (Hebrews 9:28). This appearing is after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). The gathering (rapture) is after the resurrection of the dead in Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). The first resurrection includes those beheaded in the Tribulation (Revelation 20:4-6). Since the first resurrection includes the Tribulation dead, and since there is no gathering (rapture) before the resurrection, and since there is, by definition, no resurrection before the first resurrection, there is no gathering (rapture) before Jesus comes at the end of the Tribulation (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-21). Many will desire to see the days of the Son of Man prematurely (Luke 17:22) and many will be deceived by false returns (Matthew 24:23-26). He will be perceived by many as late (Luke 17:7-8, Matthew 24:48, Matthew 25:5, Matthew 25:19, 2 Peter 3:4). Please don't expect Him early--you might not have enough oil.

You are forgetting that there was not even one passage in the entire Old Testament that said Messiah would come more then just one time. The entire Old Testament reference to this fact was the apparent contradictions between various prophecies about Messiah's coming.

This scriptural precedent demonstrates that what the scriptures do not say is sometimes as significant as what they do say. And regardless of any argument you can make, you cannot show even one scripture that says that our Lord will only return once. For there is no such scripture. Instead, the New Testament comments about our Lord's return contain the same type of apparent contradictions as the Old Testament passages about Messiah's coming. Now that we have the New Testament, we know that the resolution to the apparent contradictions in the Old Testament was that they spoke of more than a single coming of Messiah. This indeed sets a precedent that the resolution to the apparent contradictions about His return is that same -- that he is returning more than once.

 

[The Hammer of Witches]

Pre-tribulation seems to be consistent with the Bible, although we won't completely know for sure until that time arrives.

 

[Dave Watchman]

You are forgetting that there was not even one passage in the entire Old Testament that said Messiah would come more then just one time.

Bingo, beautiful and that's what I say too. Daniel 9 had to be worded in a way to include a primary visitation and the potential for a secondary visitation if the first one didn't work out 100% as planed.

I think the rapture will be in the month of January.

The Fig Tree will shed it's winter fruit when shaken by a gale.

 

[greenguzzi]

Actually, I do not speak of the Revelation very often. I speak mainly about the explicitly stated prophecies in the Old Testament.

Ok, fair enough.

 

[Luke17:37]

You are forgetting that there was not even one passage in the entire Old Testament that said Messiah would come more then just one time. The entire Old Testament reference to this fact was the apparent contradictions between various prophecies about Messiah's coming.

This scriptural precedent demonstrates that what the scriptures do not say is sometimes as significant as what they do say. And regardless of any argument you can make, you cannot show even one scripture that says that our Lord will only return once. For there is no such scripture. Instead, the New Testament comments about our Lord's return contain the same type of apparent contradictions as the Old Testament passages about Messiah's coming. Now that we have the New Testament, we know that the resolution to the apparent contradictions in the Old Testament was that they spoke of more than a single coming of Messiah. This indeed sets a precedent that the resolution to the apparent contradictions about His return is that same -- that he is returning more than once.

What do you see as apparant contradictions that Jesus will only come back once?

The evidence for a post-tribulation resurrection gathering is strong. The evidence for a pre-tribulation rapture isn't there. I searched for it years ago. I was willing to challenge the teaching I grew up with because I want to know the truth, no matter what. Are you? Jesus told Peter of a future martyrdom and then asked him, "Follow Me." The Church grew due to persecution in the first century. Why should it be different for the generation to finish the Great Commission and see Christ's return?

Jesus said He told us everything important the Father gave Him to share with us.

John 15:15
15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

This is true, and yet He did not give us anything about a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. He told us we would have tribulation (John 16:33). He warned us profusely not to be deceived, while telling us that many people would. He gave us the signs of His coming. He told us what it means to watch. He told us it would be a long time, but it would be right on time.

 

[Luke17:37]

Pre-tribulation seems to be consistent with the Bible, although we won't completely know for sure until that time arrives.

I argue the opposite--that post-Tribulation resurrection gathering is clear (Matthew 24:29-31) and there's no calling for a pre- or mid-Tribulation rapture. I encourage you to test your hypothesis against the Word carefully.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Dave Watchman]

What do you see as apparant contradictions that Jesus will only come back once?

The original plan was for Jesus not to come back at all because He would have never departed back to heaven in the first place. It's why John the Baptist was always saying that the Kingdom of God was at hand. Because it really was at hand right then and there. If the old time Jews would have cooperated and accepted their Messiah it would have been a completely different world right now. Daniel would have remained forever sealed, Revelation would have never been written, Ezekiel's Temple would have been built sometime early in the middle ages and Jesus would not have died in the exact manner that He did.

A most holy place did not get anointed, but the vision and prophet have definitely been sealed. We're in the middle of the Daniel/Revelation deal right now. At the end of the tribulation Jesus is going to destroy those who destroy the Earth and every mountain and island will be removed from its place. When that's over the wicked will march up over the broad plain of the earth. There's no place for the infant to play near the cobra's den, or for us to burn wooden weapons for seven years.

There can't be any infant sticking his hand into a viper nest during Revelation's thousand years. Because it's going to be just like in the days of Noah, like in the days of Lot. In the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, among other things, the time will have come for Jesus to destroy "the destroyers of the earth.” On "the last day" Jesus will gather every single saint who ever existed, dead and alive, and we will all meet the Lord in the air. This will leave only the unsaved or the wicked who will then soon be killed by the Rider on the white horse and all the birds will gorge themselves on their flesh.

"From his mouth came a sharp sword to strike down the nations.
He will rule them with an iron rod."​

They're gonna be ruled like Psalm 2:9:

New International Version
You will break them with a rod of iron;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery."

New Living Translation
You will break them with an iron rod
and smash them like clay pots.'"

English Standard Version
You shall break them with a rod of iron
and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

New American Standard Bible
'You shall break them with a rod of iron,
You shall shatter them like earthenware.'"

King James Bible
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron;
thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.​

(It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.)

The net result will be that after treading the great wine press of God, the only intelligent life left on the planet during the thousand years will be Lucifer and his crew. Jesus destroys the destroyers of the earth and the rest of us are resurrected and raptured out of here.

No place for infants and no country for old men.

"In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also." ​

Then after the thousand years are finished we come back with Jesus and New Jerusalem which will technically be Jesus' third coming. This will be when the rest of the dead come back to life and "every eye" will see Him (even those who pierced Him).

Will Joseph Caiaphas not see Jesus again until the third coming?

"Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”​

“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.​

"Every eye" is not going to be open again until after the thousand years are finished. This can't be talking about the second coming.

"Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.​

"All things" are not going to be restored until after the thousand years of Revelation 20.

"And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
​

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Biblewriter]

The original plan was for Jesus not to come back at all because He would have never departed back to heaven in the first place.

The original plan was exactly what happened. This can be easily seen from Isaiah 53 and Psalms 22, among other scriptures. Both of these chapters clearly described the crucifixion hundreds of years before it happened, proving that this was God's plan all along.