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Can you be good without God?

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Dave Ellis

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Yes, but which one is objectively true? The first one if there is no God. In a real ultimate sense humans are nothing special and there is nothing really important about maintaining our civilization if there is no God.

So, are you telling me that if we found conclusive evidence tomorrow that there is no god, that you'd kill yourself and encourage everyone else to do so, bringing an end to civilization?

Yes, it makes most of us feel good. But you are only living a fantasy. Pretending like what you are doing is of true objective significance.

There you go with that "objective" thing again. Why does that matter? "Objective significance" is an oxymoron, we judge things to be significant or not, and all judgments are subjective.

So if there is someone that has a different goal, such as creating a communist country and they want to kill anyone that stands in the way of that goal, how can you objectively and rationally condemn them?

We can examine the objective consequences of their plan and base a well reasoned and supported judgment off of that.

There are reasons why killing anyone that stands in your way is an immoral act. It's not that hard to figure out.

Their feelings are telling them they are doing the right thing. Why are your feelings superior to theirs? Their feelings are just as valid as yours and come from basically the same chemicals in your brain and the same evolutionary process.

Because not all opinions are equal. Some opinions are backed with reason and evidence, some are not.

Only that it is objectively irrational as far as reality as shown above.

No it isn't, having a strong and thriving civilization benefits everyone, including myself. Feeling empathy and sympathy for others helps people bond and work together, strengthening that civilization.

It's both self interest, and public interest. Again, not that hard to figure out if you take the time to think about it.

But someone else may "objectively" feel that they are not enjoying their life so they want to end it. So would you try to stop them?

There's no such thing as someone objectively feeling something. Feelings are necessarily subjective.

See above about how society has no real objective basis for surviving.

There's plenty of subjective and intra-subjective ones though, based on objective facts. Why is that not good enough?

Maybe, but some people only care about themselves so on what basis can you condemn them if their evolutionary based feelings tell them not to care about civilization?

As long as they don't do anything to harm anyone else, I don't really care what their opinion on the matter is. If they do things to harm others, we have jails for people like that.

Yes, which is the only way he wanted to live in his country and the only way he wanted to survive.

Ok? Doesn't mean he wasn't an immoral monster.

No, because his behavior was just based on his brain chemistry just like you. Just because his brain chemistry came to a different conclusion then you does not mean he did anything wrong or even anything right. He was doing what evolution had created him to do. He was trying to make sure that people that believed he should be in charge were the only ones that survived, just like any other animal created by evolution.

That doesn't mean it was good behaviour

Actually it is A and B. Everything God wants is what is best for humans and dogs. God and myself as His representative on earth do not want harm to come to dogs if possible. True Christians obey God out of love for Him and His creation, not blind obedience.

If god told you to hit the dog, would you do so?
 
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Dave Ellis

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Well, you can still give yourself meaning your life can have meaning to others. But still, in the end, without God it is meaningless. Since the universe itself will die and fade into darkness, influencing the universe is still meaningless in the end.

Every experience you've ever had has come to an end, or one day will come to an end. Did that affect their meaning to you in any way?

Every book or movie you've ever read or watched has come to an end, did that affect your enjoyment of any of them?

Things don't have to be eternal to be meaningful. The vast majority of things we encounter in life are temporary, and sometimes those are the most meaningful things of all.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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So, are you telling me that if we found conclusive evidence tomorrow that there is no god, that you'd kill yourself and encourage everyone else to do so, bringing an end to civilization?

I'm wondering if the obvious false dichotomy of "Either life has meaning with a god or life has no meaning at all" is a result of theism, or if the predisposition to have these kinds of false black or white ideas lead to theism. Because I see this all time with theists, I'm wondering if it's an actual pattern...
 
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Dave Ellis

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That's for you to figure out. I can't make you think.

I can sympathize, you apparently have a great deal of difficulty in getting yourself to think, we shouldn't expect you to take the burden of getting others to think as well.
 
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Dave Ellis

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I'm wondering if the obvious false dichotomy of "Either life has meaning with a god or life has no meaning at all" is a result of theism, or if the predisposition to have these kinds of false black or white ideas lead to theism. Because I see this all time with theists, I'm wondering if it's an actual pattern...

I think it's a result of theism, and specifically indoctrination. If you're told your entire life you're meaningless without god, you eventually start to lose the ability to see other perspectives clearly.

It's hard for them to even understand what a phrase like "god is irrelevant" means. But that's only because their religion has made god and meaning synonymous. It would be like trying to argue that meaning is meaningless to us... it makes no sense.

However, god does not equal meaning, that's where they get caught, it's tough for some of them to truly understand that viewpoint. Indoctrination is a tough thing to overcome.
 
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MennoSota

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So, are you telling me that if we found conclusive evidence tomorrow that there is no god, that you'd kill yourself and encourage everyone else to do so, bringing an end to civilization?



There you go with that "objective" thing again. Why does that matter? "Objective significance" is an oxymoron, we judge things to be significant or not, and all judgments are subjective.



We can examine the objective consequences of their plan and base a well reasoned and supported judgment off of that.

There are reasons why killing anyone that stands in your way is an immoral act. It's not that hard to figure out.



Because not all opinions are equal. Some opinions are backed with reason and evidence, some are not.



No it isn't, having a strong and thriving civilization benefits everyone, including myself. Feeling empathy and sympathy for others helps people bond and work together, strengthening that civilization.

It's both self interest, and public interest. Again, not that hard to figure out if you take the time to think about it.



There's no such thing as someone objectively feeling something. Feelings are necessarily subjective.



There's plenty of subjective and intra-subjective ones though, based on objective facts. Why is that not good enough?



As long as they don't do anything to harm anyone else, I don't really care what their opinion on the matter is. If they do things to harm others, we have jails for people like that.



Ok? Doesn't mean he wasn't an immoral monster.



That doesn't mean it was good behaviour



If god told you to hit the dog, would you do so?
If God does not exist, why not go through life working to get the most out of it for yourself? Rules may be just a barrier holding you back from pleasure. If you devise a method to circumvent rules while maximizing pleasure and never get caught, you should be applauded for your efforts. You get maximum pleasure with zero repercussions and no justice imposed upon your lawbreaking. You lived above the law and had a thrilling life.
Let's all be narcissists! Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die!!!

Make it count, Dave. Get off this discussion board and fulfill all your pleasures and wants for you will be soon dead and your molecules will release their bonds to form something else.

May I be the first person to tell you you're wasting your life here on the Christian forums?
 
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bhsmte

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I think it's a result of theism, and specifically indoctrination. If you're told your entire life you're meaningless without god, you eventually start to lose the ability to see other perspectives clearly.

It's hard for them to even understand what a phrase like "god is irrelevant" means. But that's only because their religion has made god and meaning synonymous. It would be like trying to argue that meaning is meaningless to us... it makes no sense.

However, god does not equal meaning, that's where they get caught, it's tough for some of them to truly understand that viewpoint. Indoctrination is a tough thing to overcome.

A bit of stockholm syndrome.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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If God does not exist, why not go through life working to get the most out of it for yourself? Rules may be just a barrier holding you back from pleasure. If you devise a method to circumvent rules while maximizing pleasure and never get caught, you should be applauded for your efforts. You get maximum pleasure with zero repercussions and no justice imposed upon your lawbreaking. You lived above the law and had a thrilling life.
Let's all be narcissists! Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die!!!

Make it count, Dave. Get off this discussion board and fulfill all your pleasures and wants for you will be soon dead and your molecules will release their bonds to form something else.

May I be the first person to tell you you're wasting your life here on the Christian forums?
You aspire to godhood, and yet we're the narcissists?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I think it's a result of theism, and specifically indoctrination. If you're told your entire life you're meaningless without god, you eventually start to lose the ability to see other perspectives clearly.

It's hard for them to even understand what a phrase like "god is irrelevant" means. But that's only because their religion has made god and meaning synonymous. It would be like trying to argue that meaning is meaningless to us... it makes no sense.

However, god does not equal meaning, that's where they get caught, it's tough for some of them to truly understand that viewpoint. Indoctrination is a tough thing to overcome.
I think you may be right. When I was most devout, I couldn't conceive of how one could find meaning in a godless universe. It seemed impossible.
 
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Dave Ellis

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If God does not exist, why not go through life working to get the most our of it for yourself? Rules may be just a barrier holding you back from pleasure. If you devise a method to circumvent rules while maximizing pleasure and never get caught, you should be applauded for your efforts.

Because that's counter-productive, societies require rules to function. Besides, I enjoy my relationships with friends, family members and other people. If I only cared about myself, took advantage of everyone and broke all the rules, eventually I would destroy all of those relationships. That would lessen my enjoyment of life, and leave me with a lot of guilt. Why would I do that?

You get maximum pleasure with zero repercussions and no justice imposed upon your lawbreaking. You lived above the law and had a thrilling life.

Except there are repercussions, I don't live in a vacuum, my actions affect others.

Let's all be narcissists! Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die!!!

Make it count, Dave. Get off this discussion board and fulfill all your pleasures and wants for you will be soon dead and your molecules will release their bonds to form something else.

I'm not a narcissist, and I explained why above. Your view of things is pretty short sighted and ultimately counter-productive.

May I be the first person to tell you you're wasting your life here on the Christian forums?

The irony is, I can't think of a worldview that puts less meaning in life than Calvinism. You believe everything is predestined, so ultimately whatever happens here is a waste of time. Why not just get it over with and find out if you're going to heaven or hell? But even then, what meaning will your life have? You didn't get there based on anything you did, you got there by luck of the draw.

You're a sheep. How meaningful is that?
 
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Dave Ellis

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I think you may be right. When I was most devout, I couldn't conceive of how one could find meaning in a godless universe. It seemed impossible.

The funny thing is, most people I know who were once seriously religious and then became atheists now find their life more meaningful than ever.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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If God does not exist, why not go through life working to get the most out of it for yourself? Rules may be just a barrier holding you back from pleasure. If you devise a method to circumvent rules while maximizing pleasure and never get caught, you should be applauded for your efforts. You get maximum pleasure with zero repercussions and no justice imposed upon your lawbreaking. You lived above the law and had a thrilling life.
Let's all be narcissists! Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die!!!

Thanks for proving my previous post. Please never give up your religion, as I'd be afraid for everyone around you if you did.
 
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MennoSota

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You aspire to godhood, and yet we're the narcissists?
Never once have I aspired to be God.
I am just a servant of the Most High God, who has been pardoned by God's mercy and grace.

On the contrary, when you reject God's authority, you become your own god.

Now that I have stopped you attempt to sidetrack the issue, please explain why you choose to waste you short, meaningless life, as an atheist on a Christian forum site. That may be the most pathetic method of eat, drink and be merry that I have ever seen.
Soon your molecules will be fertilizer for the ground and you waste your time here. That's just sad.
 
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Dave Ellis

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A bit of stockholm syndrome.

Actually, I was listening to a podcast the other day on the issue of what fundamentalist religion does to someone's psyche. It does create a scarily similar condition to battered spouse syndrome.

The wife who won't leave the husband that's beating the crap out of her, because she loves him, couldn't find meaning in life without him, and makes excuses why the abuse is actually her fault.

It's virtually the same condition.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Never once have I aspired to be God.
I am just a servant of the Most High God, who has been pardoned by God's mercy and grace.

On the contrary, when you reject God's authority, you become your own god.
Of course you have. That's what you want most: to become your own god. The perfection of narcissism. The worst thing is that you'll pretend that this makes you humble.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Never once have I aspired to be God.
I am just a servant of the Most High God, who has been pardoned by God's mercy and grace.

On the contrary, when you reject God's authority, you become your own god.

Now that I have stopped you attempt to sidetrack the issue, please explain why you choose to waste you short, meaningless life, as an atheist on a Christian forum site. That may be the most pathetic method of eat, drink and be merry that I have ever seen.
Soon your molecules will be fertilizer for the ground and you waste your time here. That's just sad.


What's worse? Eventually becoming fertilizer, or wasting the only life you have spreading "fertilizer" like you're doing?
 
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bhsmte

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Actually, I was listening to a podcast the other day on the issue of what fundamentalist religion does to someone's psyche. It does create a scarily similar condition to battered spouse syndrome.

The wife who won't leave the husband that's beating the crap out of her, because she loves him, couldn't find meaning in life without him, and makes excuses why the abuse is actually her fault.

It's virtually the same condition.

I would agree and would add this;

IMO, it is not so much the religion that is the driver here, but the individuals personal psyche.

One needs to have a certain paychological need to be in place, to latch on to a religion or anything else, in a fashion that defies well evidenced reality.
 
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