Can you be good without God?

[MennoSota]

Again, a claim made by MEN, not a god. A man may claim whatever he chooses. That doesn't make it true.

Which is why you must doubt all history ever written.
Luke has been proven to be the greatest historian in antiquity, yet you toss him aside. Most of what we know about the ancient world of the Middle East is from the Bible and is corroborated by archeology. God did a great job of maintaining excellence in His word. Yet, because you want you imaginary matrix world to be true, you ignore reality and God's words to humanity.
So be it. Live in your matrix.

 

[MennoSota]

Let me remind you, MEN also claimed that Thor produces thunder, that the Olympian gods bred with humans and that a man named Mohammed flew to heaven on a horse.

Are we meant to believe just any nonsense that men put their names to?

Let me remind you that humans witnessed Yeshua's death, burial and resurrection. They ate with him after his resurrection and they died as martyrs proclaiming this truth to people like you.
They witnessed to truth. Yet, you prefer your matrix.
So be it.

 

[Davian]

Glad you saw the movie. There is a world outside the Matrix you live in and it is much more beautiful than anything you've created for yourself.

This "beautiful world" that you allude to... you cannot show it, outside of your imagination? Correct?

 

[Dave Ellis]

Which is why you must doubt all history ever written.
Luke has been proven to be the greatest historian in antiquity, yet you toss him aside. Most of what we know about the ancient world of the Middle East is from the Bible and is corroborated by archeology. God did a great job of maintaining excellence in His word. Yet, because you want you imaginary matrix world to be true, you ignore reality and God's words to humanity.
So be it. Live in your matrix.

No, Luke is not the greatest historian in antiquity. His work heavily plagiarizes other works, and gets basic historical facts wrong.

The only supporting evidence for Luke being a historian at all is because he says so himself at the start of his own book. Hardly convincing.

 

[Ed1wolf]

Ed1wolf said: ↑
Yes, but you are acting as if humans are special and deserve concern. But if atheistic evolution is true then humans are just another animal and nothing special.

de: Depends on how you look at it.

If you look at it from the scope of the grand overall universe, you're right. We aren't anything overly special... we're the most advanced species on a speck of dust in the cosmos.

If you look at it from our perspective on the other hand, humans are incredibly special and deserve concern, because we're human. In order for our civilization, and our own lives to be lived to the fullest extent possible, we should take great concern on these issues.

Yes, but which one is objectively true? The first one if there is no God. In a real ultimate sense humans are nothing special and there is nothing really important about maintaining our civilization if there is no God. Yes, it makes most of us feel good. But you are only living a fantasy. Pretending like what you are doing is of true objective significance. So if there is someone that has a different goal, such as creating a communist country and they want to kill anyone that stands in the way of that goal, how can you objectively and rationally condemn them? Their feelings are telling them they are doing the right thing. Why are your feelings superior to theirs? Their feelings are just as valid as yours and come from basically the same chemicals in your brain and the same evolutionary process.

↑

ed: The consequences of what you do to others and yourself are objective but the reason you are doing them is subjective. It is just based on sentimental feelings for humans.

de: And what's wrong with sentimental feelings for my fellow humans? (or other living things in general)

Only that it is objectively irrational as far as reality as shown above.

↑

ed; There is no real objective reason for you not to kill yourself or other people especially if they hurt your survival which is the whole point of evolution.

de: Sure there is, it's an objective fact that I enjoy life, and do not want to die. Therefore I have reason to not kill myself.

But someone else may "objectively" feel that they are not enjoying their life so they want to end it. So would you try to stop them?

de: It is also an objective fact that if people went around killing each other for no good reason, that society as we know it would collapse. It's also very likely I would wind up being killed.

See above about how society has no real objective basis for surviving.

de: Therefore, I have reason to not do that sort of thing. A strong and peaceful civilization is beneficial to us all.

Maybe, but some people only care about themselves so on what basis can you condemn them if their evolutionary based feelings tell them not to care about civilization?

↑

ed: In fact that is why Stalin killed the aristocracy and the intelligentsia because he thought they were hurting his country and also his surivival. So as you can see there is nothing objectively wrong with what Stalin did if there is no God especially the Christian God.

de: No, Stalin killed the aristocracy and intelligentsia because they were a threat to his power.

Yes, which is the only way he wanted to live in his country and the only way he wanted to survive.

de: So, he killed millions of people, which is objectively harmful to those millions of people. He did this for selfish reasons, which can not in any way justify his actions. There was no good action that he did that could ever justify the harm that he did. Therefore, his actions were immoral.

No, because his behavior was just based on his brain chemistry just like you. Just because his brain chemistry came to a different conclusion then you does not mean he did anything wrong or even anything right. He was doing what evolution had created him to do. He was trying to make sure that people that believed he should be in charge were the only ones that survived, just like any other animal created by evolution.

de: It's not that hard. In fact, I'd argue you make the exact same basic moral judgments every day.

If a dog runs out in front of your car, do you slow down because:

A) That's what god wants you to do

or

B) You don't want to see unnecessary harm come to that dog?

It's very likely you'd choose B, and that's good, because that's the only moral answer. A is only blind obedience, which is amoral.

Actually it is A and B. Everything God wants is what is best for humans and dogs. God and myself as His representative on earth do not want harm to come to dogs if possible. True Christians obey God out of love for Him and His creation, not blind obedience.

 

[Eudaimonist]

So what meaning would your life have after the universe fades into darkness? Just curious.

Why should I care about that? I won't exist at that time to be inconvenienced by any lack of meaning.

Life is the context of meaning. Meaning pertains to life, not to hypothetical futures in which life doesn't exist. It's a non-issue. Why are you stuck on that?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[SteveB28]

Which is why you must doubt all history ever written.
Luke has been proven to be the greatest historian in antiquity, yet you toss him aside.

Grossly incorrect. You have no evidence that someone named 'Luke' even wrote that material.

But that is beside the point. You are confirming what I said. None of that material was written by a god. It was all written by humans, many of unknown identities.

 

[SteveB28]

Let me remind you that humans witnessed Yeshua's death, burial and resurrection. They ate with him after his resurrection and they died as martyrs proclaiming this truth to people like you.
They witnessed to truth. Yet, you prefer your matrix.
So be it.

Now be honest. Some men, writing much later than the claimed events, say that they were told stories about other men who claimed to have seen those things.

Hearsay upon hearsay. No corroborating evidence. No contemporary reports. No identities for the story tellers. And their stories conflict with one another!

 

[Archaeopteryx]

So what meaning would your life have after the universe fades into darkness? Just curious.

Sent from my SM-N915V using Tapatalk

So unless I am able to influence the state of the universe on the grandest cosmic scale, my life is meaningless? Is that what you're trying to say?

 

[Eudaimonist]

So unless I am able to influence the state of the universe on the grandest cosmic scale, my life is meaningless? Is that what you're trying to say?

So, who wants to create a giant black hole that will last for a trillion years? Apparently, that's what we need to do to make life worthwhile.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Archaeopteryx]

So, who wants to create a giant black hole that will last for a trillion years? Apparently, that's what we need to do to make life worthwhile.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Isn't it interesting how, on some level, some theists aspire toward godhood and consider life entirely meaningless unless they are able to obtain god-like powers?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

So unless I am able to influence the state of the universe on the grandest cosmic scale, my life is meaningless? Is that what you're trying to say?

Well, you can still give yourself meaning your life can have meaning to others. But still, in the end, without God it is meaningless. Since the universe itself will die and fade into darkness, influencing the universe is still meaningless in the end.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Well, you can still give yourself meaning your life can have meaning to others. But still, in the end, without God it is meaningless. Since the universe itself will die and fade into darkness, influencing the universe is still meaningless in the end.

So you acknowledge that you're wrong; that my life can have meaning and does have meaning?

 

[Eudaimonist]

But still, in the end, without God it is meaningless. Since the universe itself will die and fade into darkness, influencing the universe is still meaningless in the end.

I don't understand. I won't exist "in the end". Of course my non-existence will be meaningless to my non-existent self. I won't be a ghost to wail: "Boo hoo! My non-existence is meaningless to me!"

How is my life meaningless now? And if it is meaningful now, why should I care about the unreachable future when it is meaningless?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[MennoSota]

Now be honest. Some men, writing much later than the claimed events, say that they were told stories about other men who claimed to have seen those things.

Hearsay upon hearsay. No corroborating evidence. No contemporary reports. No identities for the story tellers. And their stories conflict with one another!

You have clung to the imaginary thinking of liberal scholars who are as blind and deaf as yourself.

Archeology has proven, time and again, that the writers of the Bible are telling truth and we're inspired by God's Spirit to write.

What you seem desperate for is an excuse so you can live in your hobo kingdom instead of dining in the presence of the Sovereign King and enjoying the bountiful blessings it supplies.

 

[SteveB28]

You have clung to the imaginary thinking of liberal scholars who are as blind and deaf as yourself.

Archeology has proven, time and again, that the writers of the Bible are telling truth and we're inspired by God's Spirit to write.

What you seem desperate for is an excuse so you can live in your hobo kingdom instead of dining in the presence of the Sovereign King and enjoying the bountiful blessings it supplies.

Please show how archeology provides any evidence for a) the existence of your god, or b) the 'truth' of the writers.

 

[MennoSota]

So unless I am able to influence the state of the universe on the grandest cosmic scale, my life is meaningless? Is that what you're trying to say?

What meaning does your molecular structure take away when it moves on?

The Bible says humans are made in the image of God, with the God-given ability to know right from wrong. All other beings have no concept of this as they kill with no sense of remorse. Why is it that a gorilla had to be killed to keep it from killing a young boy? It's because the Gorilla has no sense of right or wrong.

If there is no God, you are no more than that gorilla and morality is a meaningless thing. You create a facade and illusion for yourself to try bring meaning apart from your Creator.

 

[MennoSota]

Please show how archeology provides any evidence for a) the existence of your god, or b) the 'truth' of the writers.

Just a quick search...

http://www.equip.org/article/biblic...ence-to-support-the-historicity-of-the-bible/

 

[Archaeopteryx]

What meaning does your molecular structure take away when it moves on?

The Bible says humans are made in the image of God, with the God-given ability to know right from wrong. All other beings have no concept of this as they kill with no sense of remorse. Why is it that a gorilla had to be killed to keep it from killing a young boy? It's because the Gorilla has no sense of right or wrong.

If there is no God, you are no more than that gorilla and morality is a meaningless thing. You create a facade and illusion for yourself to try bring meaning apart from your Creator.

Cool story bro.

 

[SteveB28]

Just a quick search...

http://www.equip.org/article/biblic...ence-to-support-the-historicity-of-the-bible/

And where does any of that show either a) or b) as I requested?