The Early Church is the Catholic Church

[Thursday]

They're not the same thing because an Overseer in the New Testament must be the husband of one wife. How many Catholic Bishops are the husband of one wife. There was a reason why Paul insisted that overseer's be married. Just another issue that the RCC seems to have missed and gone off on its own tangent.

That means no more than one wife.

Both Paul and Jesus said it is preferable for those serving the kingdom to be unmarried.

A man cannot serve a parish of 5000(average size in USA) and a family.

It is possible for a Catholic priest to be married, it is not dogma, but is a discipline. However, for practical reasons it is the norm.

 

[Thursday]

Jesus Is God incarnate. There is Jesus the man and the word of God that is incarnated in him. They exist in a hypostasis. That should be clear to any RC.

Where are all the writings from people who believed like you in the first 1200 years of Christianity?

 

[keltoi]

Oh really. Then why are they carrying our prayers to God?

Rev 5:8
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people.

I guess they aren't dead!!

What, or lets be more precise who, do you think these Elders are?

John 11:26
26Andeveryone who lives and believes in Me will never die.

Do you believe this?” Yes I believe my spirit will never die but my physical body most certainly will.

Luke 20
37Even Moses demonstrates that the dead are raised, in the passage about the burning bush. For he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for to Him” all are alive.

Yes again the spirits of all are alive but the body will physically die. Only 1 person in teh Bible is written as not having physically died. Are you, therefore, saying teh Bile is wrong?

 

[keltoi]

They are all over the bible. The word bishop is the same as overseer, so it depends on which translation you use.

That argument doesn't work

 

[StanJ]

So you were wrong. I agree.

Again with the mis-representation.

 

[Thursday]

What, or lets be more precise who, do you think these Elders are?

Do you believe this?” Yes I believe my spirit will never die but my physical body most certainly will.

Yes again the spirits of all are alive but the body will physically die. Only 1 person in teh Bible is written as not having physically died. Are you, therefore, saying teh Bile is wrong?

I believe the elders are highly esteemed saints or OT prophets, but that's just a guess.

I agree, our bodies will die but our spirits will continue living with Jesus.

 

[Thursday]

That argument doesn't work

Of course it does. We can see bishops throughout Christian history starting with the new testament up until today.

 

[keltoi]

It may link some of Daniel to the New Covenant in that regard, but it is not subject to Daniel.

Genesis: Tree of Life. Genesis and Exodus: 12 Tribes of Israel. There are more but I've made my point.

 

[keltoi]

I believe the elders are highly esteemed saints or OT prophets, but that's just a guess.

Guessing the Bible is dangerous ad foolhardy, I suggest you stop doing that.

I agree, our bodies will die but our spirits will continue living with Jesus.

So you were either wrong, or you have been deliberately twisting the discussion. What one of these 2 options was it?

 

[Thursday]

Gotta go. I've enjoyed enlightening you gentlemen!!



But seriously, have a nice evening!

 

[keltoi]

Of course it does.

No it doesn't. Stop guessing the Bible and start reading it.

We can see bishops throughout Christian history starting with the new testament up until today.

Can we? Give me 1 instance where the Bible say's Bishop.

 

[prodromos]

Again my question wasn't directed at you but as you are interjecting here why don't you tell us.

If you want one on one debate you are posting in the wrong section of the forum. If you can't answer the question, at least be honest and state as much instead of trying to deflect it.

Are you saying they disagree with one another? That means you believe that the Bible has contradictions in it?

If you read my post carefully, you will understand that I am saying YOUR INTERPRETATION of Scripture seems to be creating contradictions. That suggests YOUR INTERPRETATION is the problem, not the Scriptures themselves. I would appreciate seeing how your interpretation of John 20 harmonises with 1 Timothy 2, but you've already made it clear you can't else you would have responded to the above.

 

[StanJ]

That means no more than one wife.
Both Paul and Jesus said it is preferable for those serving the kingdom to be unmarried.
A man cannot serve a parish of 5000(average size in USA) and a family.
It is possible for a Catholic priest to be married, it is not dogma, but is a discipline. However, for practical reasons it is the norm.

No it means he must have one wife and a family. v5 makes it pretty clear that if an overseer can't manage his wife and family he has no business trying to manage a local church. In fact and Paul's words it is imperative that he shows he can manage his wife and family so that he demonstrate he is able to take care of the local church. What Paul is describing in 1st Timothy and and Titus 1, is the typical respectable family man in the community at that time. Nothing much has changed as far as that requirement is concerned unless of course you're in the RCC who think that they are the one who set the rules?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Sure I have but that has nothing to do with purgatory. Purgatory refers to the purification some believers undergo after death to prepare them to enter heaven which is necessary since scripture teaches "nothing impure shall enter it."

Earlier in this thread I provided a rather detailed explanation as to why purgatory is not biblical. I will take the liberty of pasting it for you.

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Purgatory is “a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.” To summarize, in Catholic theology Purgatory is a place that a Christian’s soul goes to after death to be cleansed of the sins that had not been fully satisfied during life. Is this doctrine of Purgatory in agreement with the Bible? Absolutely not!

Jesus died to pay the penalty for all of our sins (Romans 5:8). Isaiah 53:5 declares, “But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.” Jesus suffered for our sins so that we could be delivered from suffering. To say that we must also suffer for our sins is to say that Jesus’ suffering was insufficient. To say that we must atone for our sins by cleansing in Purgatory is to deny the sufficiency of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus (1 John 2:2). The idea that we have to suffer for our sins after death is contrary to everything the Bible says about salvation.

The primary Scriptural passage Catholics point to for evidence of Purgatory is 1 Corinthians 3:15, which says, “If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.” The passage (1 Corinthians 3:12-15) is using an illustration of things going through fire as a description of believers’ works being judged. If our works are of good quality “gold, sliver, costly stones,” they will pass through the fire unharmed, and we will be rewarded for them. If our works are of poor quality “wood, hay, and straw,” they will be consumed by the fire, and there will be no reward. The passage does not say that believers pass through the fire, but rather that a believer’s works pass through the fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the believer “escaping through the flames,” not “being cleansed by the flames.”

Purgatory, like many other Catholic dogmas, is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ’s sacrifice. Catholics view the Mass / Eucharist as a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice because they fail to understand that Jesus’ once-for-all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27). Catholics view meritorious works as contributing to salvation due to a failure to recognize that Jesus’ sacrificial payment has no need of additional “contribution” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Similarly, Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for heaven because they do not recognize that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified.

The very idea of Purgatory and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) all fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1,14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus’ sacrifice to atoning for original sin, or sins committed before salvation, is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must in any sense pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins – that indicates Jesus’ death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.

For believers, after death is to be "away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Notice that this does not say "away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire." No, because of the perfection, completion, and sufficiency of Jesus' sacrifice, we are immediately in the Lord's presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, glorified, perfected, and ultimately sanctified.

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[StanJ]

Where are all the writings from people who believed like you in the first 1200 years of Christianity?

Well I'm sure you can find them if you do a Google search on early church fathers or ECFs.

 

[StanJ]

If you want one on one debate you are posting in the wrong section of the forum. If you can't answer the question, at least be honest and state as much instead of trying to deflect it.

Thanks tips but that wasn't my point. If you're going to interject then interject properly and stay on topic. If not then don't bother interjecting.

If you read my post carefully, you will understand that I am saying YOUR INTERPRETATION of Scripture seems to be creating contradictions. That suggests YOUR INTERPRETATION is the problem, not the Scriptures themselves. I would appreciate seeing how your interpretation of John 20 harmonises with 1 Timothy 2, but you've already made it clear you can't else you would have responded to the above.

Yes I know you made an assertion by bringing up another verse that you think contradicted what I said but in fact it didn't, which is why I pointed out to you that the Bible doesn't contradict itself, but you didn't back up your assertion with any facts, so please give us some facts as to how scripture contradicts itself in your eyes.

 

[keltoi]

Gotta go. I've enjoyed enlightening you gentlemen!!

Sorry to disapoint you but nothing you have said has had any positive effect on mje whatsoever.

But seriously, have a nice evening!

Sleep tight, don't let the bed bugs bite.

 

[StanJ]

Genesis: Tree of Life. Genesis and Exodus: 12 Tribes of Israel. There are more but I've made my point.

I was thinking more in terms of Prophecy but yes I agree it does bring back the Tree of Life and the lost tribes of Israel which shouldn't necessarily be confused with the Twelve Tribes of Israel, but yes I get your point.

 

[keltoi]

I was thinking more in terms of Prophecy but yes I agree it does bring back the Tree of Life and the lost tribes of Israel which shouldn't necessarily be confused with the Twelve Tribes of Israel, but yes I get your point.

The lost tribes were the northern kingdom, the 12 tribes are the united kingdom (2 southern tribes and 10 northern tribes).

 

[samir]

There is Jesus the man and the word of God that is incarnated in him. They exist in a hypostasis. That should be clear to any RC.

If you believe no one has seen God because they only saw Jesus the man but not the word of God then you are holding a heretical view of Jesus condemned at the Council of Chalcedon. The catholic teaching is that Jesus is two natures but only one person. Therefore, those who have seen Jesus have seen God.