The Early Church is the Catholic Church

[Anguspure]

If Revelation wasn't in Protestant bibles and someone handed you a copy of it to read, how would you decide whether it is God's word?

Apostolic authority.

 

[samir]

Apostolic authority.

Luther said it wasn't apostolic. How do you know the apostles' accepted it?

 

[StanJ]

Did you read it? It seems to support what he has been saying. Until the ruling made by the 3rd century Church Council not all of the books were unanimously recognised as being canon

Yes I did read it and besides the fact that the question wasn't directed at you, the Bible wasn't given to us by the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[StanJ]

So what authority was Jesus 'actually' giving His Apostles in John 20:22-23?

And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld."​

Again my question wasn't directed at you but as you are interjecting here why don't you tell us.

 

[StanJ]

I'm not Catholic. I am not arguing for the papacy. How do you interpret John 20:22-23?
Do you agree with StanJ's interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:5 in light of the above passage?

Are you saying they disagree with one another? That means you believe that the Bible has contradictions in it?

 

[StanJ]

As the Father sent me, I am sending you...

That's a deflection I asked you to explain the scripture in 1st Timothy in light of the RCC using priests for confession.

 

[StanJ]

That quote wasn't talking about scripture. In fact, when Paul wrote that letter much of the New Testament was yet to be written.
The traditions of the Church are part of the revelation of God to man through Jesus and the apostles.

That's right, and Paul knew he was writing scripture which is why he said what he did in his letters. The traditions of the Apostles that are in writing is what he was referring to, NOT the traditions of some institution hundreds of years later that went against what Paul taught and wrote.

 

[StanJ]

The bible encourages us to pray for each other. Does that make us mediators?

No.

 

[StanJ]

Who is dead? Not those who live and believe in Christ. We will never die.

Those rejoicing in heaven when a sinner repents? Are they dead?

First, read John11:25-26, then read Hebrew 9:27.

There is nobody in heaven except Jesus, so who are you talking about?

 

[Thursday]

That's a deflection I asked you to explain the scripture in 1st Timothy in light of the RCC using priests for confession.

That's right, and Paul knew he was writing scripture which is why he said what he did in his letters. The traditions of the Apostles that are in writing is what he was referring to, NOT the traditions of some institution hundreds of years later that went against what Paul taught and wrote.

The passage that speaks of priests and confession is here:

John 20

22When He had said this, He breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.”

He was not referring to written traditions alone. He was also referring to oral traditions, liturgy, and prayers.

2 This 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

 

[Thursday]

No.

Then why should those alive with Christ who pray for us be any different?

 

[Thursday]

First, read John11:25-26, then read Hebrew 9:27.

There is nobody in heaven except Jesus, so who are you talking about?

Interesting...

Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Revelation 5:11
Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels and living creatures and elders encircling the throne, and their number was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands.

Rev 5:8
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people.

 

[Thursday]

Yes I did read it and besides the fact that the question wasn't directed at you, the Bible wasn't given to us by the Roman Catholic Church.

You repeating this claim doesn't make it true. Any historian can tell you the truth if you are really interested.

 

[StanJ]

This is a major error in understandngi. Jesus and the other NT writers clearly distinguish the roles of Church leaders from that of the rest of us. We are to listen to THEIR message, which is the message of Christ. We are not to create our own message. We are to OBEY those sent by Jesus.
Note that Jesus separates the leaders from the rest of the flock in his prayer:

Well Jesus did distinguish his apostles from others as his chosen ones based on the fact that God chose them to be his apostles, but I see nowhere that Paul depicts choosing leaders. In Titus 1:7-9, and he tells us the offices that Jesus gave to the church in Ephraim 4:11-12
I see no where in this and other scriptures where Jesus or Paul appointed leadership over the body of Christ. What he gave were servants.

 

[StanJ]

Interesting...

Luke 15:7
I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Revelation 5:11
Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels and living creatures and elders encircling the throne, and their number was myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands.

Rev 5:8
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people.

Not for me because I already knew it but you're reading into scripture what is not there. The rejoicing in Luke are the Angels, the same ones that rejoiced at the birth of Jesus and made an appearance to the shepherds in the fields. No humans, no souls. You apparently didn't believe Jesus when he said; "no one has ever seen God...." John 1:18?

 

[StanJ]

You repeating this claim doesn't make it true. Any historian can tell you the truth if you are really interested.

I've already given you the historical account by the links I posted. You can believe them or not, but the facts remain the same.

 

[StanJ]

Further to this it is also scriptural to consider that the all dead are ressurected at the same time. The ressurection to life occurs at the time that Christ calls us all up, and the ressurection to judgement later on.
It is pointless to pray to a sleeping person, we should instead be praying to the one who is the first fruit among the dead. He alone is awake and listening.

ONLY the dead in Christ will be resurrected when Christ returns.

 

[StanJ]

If he is in Christ you can ask him to pray for you.

I suggest you read Luke 16:19-31 and learn some reality... There is no one in heaven to pray to except God/Jesus.

 

[Thursday]

Well Jesus did distinguish his apostles from others as his chosen ones based on the fact that God showed them to be his apostles but I see nowhere that Paul depicts choosing leaders in Titus 1:7-9, and he tells us the offices that Jesus gave to the church in Ephraim 4:11-12
I see no where in this and other scriptures where Jesus or Paul pointed leadership over the body of Christ. What he gave were servants.

Bishop=Greek -epískopos =overseer

I PETER
1 Peter 5:1-4: "The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers , not by constraint but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock; and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away."

Acts 20:28
Pay attention to yourselves and to the entire flock in which the Holy Spirit has placed you as bishops to be shepherds for God's church which he acquired with his own blood.

Titus 1:7
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;

Matt 28
18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”



2 Cor 5:18
18All this isfrom God, who reconciled us to Himselfthrough Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:

 

[Thursday]

I've already given you the historical account by the links I posted. You can believe them or not, but the facts remain the same.

You don't seem to know any facts. You are posting propaganda.

You are blinding yourself to the truth because you are led by a man made dogma. Jesus wants you to be fully in communion with his body. He wants you to receive his flesh and blood as spiritual food. He wants you to be absolved of your sins by those he sent.