Why do you have to believe in the trinity to be saved?

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

He was God.





-CryptoLutheran

I guess by this logic moses elijah etc were all god as well.

 

[Truthfrees]

MOD HAT

Moving this thread from Debate Non-Christian Religions to Controversial Christian Theology as per the SOPs.

Non-Christians will not be able to post in CCT as it is a Christian Only Forum.

Posts have been deleted because they were NC or quoted an NC.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I guess by this logic moses elijah etc were all god as well.

Well no, my response was to the question of how Jesus could do the miracles He did if He wasn't just a human filled with the Holy Spirit, because He was God.

What that doesn't do is suggest that every person who works miracles is God. Because that wasn't my argument.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ewq1938]

Well no, my response was to the question of how Jesus could do the miracles He did if He wasn't just a human filled with the Holy Spirit, because He was God.

What that doesn't do is suggest that every person who works miracles is God. Because that wasn't my argument.

-CryptoLutheran

Jesus forgave sins and only God can do that.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

Jesus forgave sins and only God can do that.

Those who believe Jesus being able to forgive sins makes him god is making the same error that the pharisees made and one which Jesus had shown was not true.

Jesus’ action in stating that the man’s sins were forgiven were not meant to prove that he was God, rather, it is to show that God “has given [Jesus] authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man” (John 5:27). Notice that the onlookers were amazed that such authority had been given to men. They did not conclude from what Jesus did that he must be God. They drew the simple conclusion that God must have given authority to this man to forgive sins. Elsewhere, Jesus delegates the authority to the apostles saying, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld” (John 20:23). If being given the authority to forgive sins means the person is God, then we should conclude the apostles were God also. But this is surely absurd. Instead we should acknowledge that the authority ultimately comes from God who has given it to people.-Revised English Version Commentary

 

[ewq1938]

Those who believe Jesus being able to forgive sins makes him god is making the same error that the pharisees made and one which Jesus had shown was not true.

it is not a mistake. Only God can forgive sins. Jesus is God and is God from the OT according to Paul. See my signature.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

it is not a mistake. Only God can forgive sins. Jesus is God and is God from the OT according to Paul. See my signature.

In response to rev 21:7 I have the following.

Since both God and Jesus Christ are “the Alpha and the Omega” in their own respective ways, there is good reason to believe that the title can apply to both of them, and no good reason why this title makes the two into “one God.” The titles “Lord” (see Rom. 10:9 above), “Savior” (see Luke 1:47 above) and “king of kings (see 1 Tim. 6:14-16 above) apply to both God and Christ, as well as to other men. As with “Lord,” “Savior” and “King of kings,” this title fits them both. God is truly the beginning and the end of all things, while Christ is the beginning and the end because he is the firstborn from the dead, the Author and Finisher of faith, the Man by whom God will judge the world, and the creator of the new ages to come (see Heb. 1:10 above).-rev

In response to 1 co 10:4

Rock in psalm 78:35 means refuge. We can take refuge in both God and Jesus without Jesus being God. We can pray to both Jesus and God and worship both God and Jesus without jesus being God.

 

[ewq1938]

Rock in psalm 78:35 means refuge. We can take refuge in both God and Jesus without Jesus being God.

You are incorrect. Jesus is God. The Father is God. The Holy Spirit is God. Scripture affirms all three facts.

 

[Leevo]

There is no verse in the bible that says believe in the trinity and ye shall be saved. Or anything even close.

You are correct there. There is no verse that tells you that you must believe in the Trinity to be saved. However, you do run into theological issues and run contrary to 2000 years of theology by people who are way smarter than we could ever hope to be with regards to these things...

The only verse in the bible that flat out tells you what you need to do to be saved is Romans 10:9. So explain to me an accused non christian who doesn't believe in the trinity but believes in romans 10:9 why im going to hell. Even though I believe what the bible says to believe to be saved.

Several other verses address salvation and it is described in many ways, so Romans 10:9 cannot be your only source on such a massive topic.

As to your claim against the Trinity, I find one major fault with it. You cut out Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1. Both of which confirm the deity of Christ.

If you are using the King James Version, Titus 2:13 will read "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." This is wrong. However, the KJV was written prior to the discovery of the Granville Sharp's rule. Which, changes Titus 2:13 to be more accurately written as "Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus." (NASB) It clearly says here that Christ is God.

Also, in dealing with 2 Peter 1:1, the KJV will read, "to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." Which, again, is wrong. With the Granville Sharp's rule, it reads, "To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ." (NASB) This again, clearly testifies to the deity of Christ.

A way to think of how the GSR works: "Basically, Granville Sharp's rule states that when you have two nouns, which are not proper names (such as Cephas, or Paul, or Timothy), which are describing a person, and the two nouns are connected by the word 'and,' and the first noun has the article ('the') while the second does not, both nouns are referring to the same person."
-James White

 

[Grafted In]

There is no verse in the bible that says believe in the trinity and ye shall be saved. Or anything even close.

The only verse in the bible that flat out tells you what you need to do to be saved is Romans 10:9. So explain to me an accused non christian who doesn't believe in the trinity but believes in romans 10:9 why im going to hell. Even though I believe what the bible says to believe to be saved.

I don't believe you have to. We have no spiritual discernment prior to salvation. I didn't anyway.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

You are correct there. There is no verse that tells you that you must believe in the Trinity to be saved. However, you do run into theological issues and run contrary to 2000 years of theology by people who are way smarter than we could ever hope to be with regards to these things...



Several other verses address salvation and it is described in many ways, so Romans 10:9 cannot be your only source on such a massive topic.

As to your claim against the Trinity, I find one major fault with it. You cut out Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1. Both of which confirm the deity of Christ.

If you are using the King James Version, Titus 2:13 will read "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." This is wrong. However, the KJV was written prior to the discovery of the Granville Sharp's rule. Which, changes Titus 2:13 to be more accurately written as "Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus." (NASB) It clearly says here that Christ is God.

Also, in dealing with 2 Peter 1:1, the KJV will read, "to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." Which, again, is wrong. With the Granville Sharp's rule, it reads, "To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ." (NASB) This again, clearly testifies to the deity of Christ.

A way to think of how the GSR works: "Basically, Granville Sharp's rule states that when you have two nouns, which are not proper names (such as Cephas, or Paul, or Timothy), which are describing a person, and the two nouns are connected by the word 'and,' and the first noun has the article ('the') while the second does not, both nouns are referring to the same person."
-James White

A wide range of grammarians and Biblical scholars have recognized that the absence of the definite article before “our Savior Jesus Christ” is quite inadequate to establish the Trinitarian claim that Jesus is here called ‘the great God’
The point is, that when Scripture refers to “our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,” it can refer to two separate beings—1) the Great God and 2) the Savior, Jesus Christ

Norton makes some great points and shows the irrelevance of the Granville Sharp Rule in “proving” the Trinity. Because no ambiguity between Christ and God would arise in the minds of the readers due to the omission of the article, it can be omitted without a problem. Likewise, there was no need for a second article in Matthew 21:12 in the phrase, “all the [ones] selling and buying,” or in Ephesians 2:20 in the phrase, “the apostles and prophets,” because no one would ever think that “sold” and “bought” meant the same thing, or that “apostles” and “prophets” were somehow the same office. This same is true all over the Bible. There is no need for a second article if no confusion would arise without it. The “rule” therefore begs the question. It can be made to apply only if it can be shown that an ambiguity would have arisen in the minds of the first century readers between Christ and God. Because the whole of Scripture clearly shows the difference between Christ and God, and that difference would have been in the minds of the believers, the Granville Sharp “Rule” is not a valid reason to make Christ God.-http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/articles/the-granville-sharp-rule

 

[Vicomte13]

outside of the Church you aren't hearing the regular and faithful preaching of the Gospel or receiving the Sacraments; that won't condemn you to hell or any such thing, but it certainly removes you from the place where God has promised to be present and active in saving us.

Well put.

 

[tickingclocker]

Outside the fringe churches tend to believe the Trinity is biblically unsupportable, too. It's something to seriously ponder as to.... Just why do they resist it?

Typically its because they can manipulate nothing within a Trinity. For an obvious instance, Mormon theology believes God was once a human man who became exalted by obeying all Mormon ordinances in his time on earth. Mormonism cannot do anything with an eternal One God of everything, then. Especially with a Jesus Christ, and a Holy Spirit being Three in One. That would mess up their own possible godhood, because a Trinity cannot be separated, or individually married to Mormon goddesses. So mormonism must separate them into three distinct entities, claiming they are all joined only in "one purpose" with "Heavenly Father" as the chief determining factor. They have three separate personalities, with two separate physical bodies. (Their Holy Ghost does not have a body, despite him being a god who must be married and produce children to become a god. Apparently they haven't figured that one out yet, so they pass it off as a mystery.)

So, my answer would be stop resisting the concept, and go to God to ask what HE thinks. Then wait for the answer, expectantly. Why bother to puzzle the divine out by human means and human opinions, when God is more than willing to answer honestly sought questions about Himself--when a believer should KNOW He certainly will? When God Himself convinces you of His truth nothing can shake you from it.

Most people who refuse submitting their beliefs to God resist because they simply don't want to change their preferred beliefs about Him. They never ask themselves "Why?" either. Only you and the Lord know if you are stuck in this mode or not. Trust is a tough thing to step out in faith upon.

 

[SkyWriting]

There is no verse in the bible that says believe in the trinity and ye shall be saved. Or anything even close.The only verse in the bible that flat out tells you what you need to do to be saved is Romans 10:9. So explain to me an accused non christian who doesn't believe in the trinity but believes in romans 10:9 why im going to hell. Even though I believe what the bible says to believe to be saved.

You don't have to read or hear anything from the Bible, why?

19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly
seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

 

[Butch5]

There is no verse in the bible that says believe in the trinity and ye shall be saved. Or anything even close.

The only verse in the bible that flat out tells you what you need to do to be saved is Romans 10:9. So explain to me an accused non christian who doesn't believe in the trinity but believes in romans 10:9 why im going to hell. Even though I believe what the bible says to believe to be saved.

You don't have to. That idea comes from the 5th century. It's part of the Athanasian Creed. Here are the first three lines of the creed.

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

 

[Albion]

The only verse in the bible that flat out tells you what you need to do to be saved is Romans 10:9. So explain to me an accused non christian who doesn't believe in the trinity but believes in romans 10:9 why im going to hell. Even though I believe what the bible says to believe to be saved.

Easy. It is not an unthinkable proposition to hold that salvation comes through being a follower of the God who made us and can give us eternal life. If you believe in another one instead, you aren't doing that, are you?

 

[tickingclocker]

You don't have to. That idea comes from the 5th century. It's part of the Athanasian Creed. Here are the first three lines of the creed.

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

Nobody is saved and suddenly has all knowledge. We begin the divine learning process, which is why the Holy Spirit is given to each and every believer to teach them of God. We have all knowledge at our disposal at that point, but never before. Some people are given the knowledge of the Trinity at salvation, with others its a process. (Don't bother to ask me why that is. Ask God. He alone is the dispenser of divine knowledge.) ALL divine knowledge is not yours to figure out by your own means. It takes going to GOD to figure out. THAT "idea" came from God. Actually its more a command.

Why is so many people try to skip around that fact? You went to Him for salvation and accepted His free gift, so why not go to Him for divine knowledge, in faith, believing He WILL teach you? Did God leave us directionless? Perhaps you are/grew up in either in a church which believes something different? Are you being discouraged by the people around you not to go to GOD alone for answers, but listen to them instead (red flag warning)? Or maybe its you yourself who resists going to GOD for answers? Because He answers in His time, and not yours? He can help you with any of those issues, too! You don't need anyone's permission to talk to God and ask Him to enlighten you---to HIM.

Just because Jesus saved you doesn't mean that's it. Making Jesus your LORD is key to salvation just as much, and that means going to God, honestly searching for HIS answers through the Holy Spirit---learning then obeying what HE teaches, setting aside whatever it is you "wish" to believe or cling to. If you ask for His strength in trying to understand His ways, will God ever petulantly reply , "No, I don't want to tell you, so there!"? Some people wish to think that's how God would work, but He never does. That's why they never dare ask. They just accept whatever men tell them. Easy believism.

“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?” (Luke 11:13)
But thanks be to God that though you were [once] slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. (Rom 6:17, 18)

 

[ken777]

There is no verse in the bible that says believe in the trinity and ye shall be saved. Or anything even close.

The only verse in the bible that flat out tells you what you need to do to be saved is Romans 10:9. So explain to me an accused non christian who doesn't believe in the trinity but believes in romans 10:9 why im going to hell. Even though I believe what the bible says to believe to be saved.

Don't you think Romans 10:9 carries the assumption that when confessing faith in the Lord Jesus, one understands who the Lord Jesus is?

 

[Albion]

Honestly, I don't think it's a certainty. There is an assumption that the believer knows who it is that was raised, etc. If he's put his faith in a Jesus who was not actually the real Jesus, there's a question.

I am not referring, to be clear, to a body double or anything like that, but we know that it's possible to completely misread a con man (or anyone, for that matter) and put our faith in him only to find out later that "I never knew him." Therefore--and for example--if one were to think it's wonderful that that man Jesus was reincarnated or re-vivified by the power of some God, it's not really the Jesus of the Bible...and yet the belief could be genuine and very devout.

And look closely at the people Jesus appeared to within days of the Resurrection. Most thought they were looking at someone else and came to know it was actually Jesus only with difficulty. It is possible to misunderstand these things, in other words.

 

[anonymouswho]

There is no verse in the bible that says believe in the trinity and ye shall be saved. Or anything even close.

You're failing to see the bigger picture. The bible doesn't say anything about the trinity because you have to have faith that it's true. If the triune god said "I'm triune", your faith in the triune god wouldn't be faith at all. It would be based on facts and logical reasoning. You have to understand that the triune god is outside of logical reason and reality; he is beyond existence. The trinity must be revealed to you by the theologians...and if you fail to understand it, the triune god will burn your flesh forever and ever.

On a serious note...

"And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me." Mark 10:17

Thank you and God bless you my friend.