Gal 4 "under the Law" vs "under Grace" in Romans 6 and not sinning

[Soyeong]

You have a very stuffy religion. You keep it and I'll take the free gift.

bugkiller

Do you not think Christian should obey the commands in the NT?

But your religion does.

Note sure what this is in regard to.

You still post exactly like and SDA.

bugkiller

SDA are right about some things and wrong about others.

 

[Soyeong]

Using the word "Torah" is meaningless in a discussion it is way too vague to nail down to what it means and the limits of it in scripture. If you want to talk Torah I suggest you go debate in the Messianic area with those people and come back and tell me what exactly it means when they decide.

"Torah" means "instruction" so it can refer to any instructions of God, including the NT, though it usually refers to the books of Moses, specifically the commands of God found therein, which is what I am referring to when I use the term.

 

[Sophrosyne]

"Torah" means "instruction" so it can refer to any instructions of God, including the NT, though it usually refers to the books of Moses, specifically the commands of God found therein, which is what I am referring to when I use the term.

It is a worthless term to debate..... too ambiguous

 

[Soyeong]

It is a worthless term to debate..... too ambiguous

That's good because I had no intention of debating the term. I could use "law" instead if you'd prefer, but that can be just as ambiguous. Even if I were using the term incorrectly, if you understand what I mean when I use it, then you can feel free to respond to my post.

 

[BobRyan]

You still post exactly like and SDA.

bugkiller

I bet you say that to D.L. Moody, R.C Sproul, C.H. Spurgeon, Baptist Confession of Faith, Westminster Confession of Faith... et all who uphold the Bible TEN Commandments in opposition to your own war on God's Ten Commandments.

You simply cast all the world as "SDA"?

Tilting at windmills?


The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism.

And of course 7th day groups

Seventh-day Baptists
Seventh-day Adventists and 100's of other groups.

 

[disciple1]

There are a number of different laws that are discussed in the Bible, not all of them are God's law. I've demonstrated that the law being talked about in verse 12 is not God's law.

Romans chapter 9 verses 30-Romans chapter 10 verse 4
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written: See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame. Brothers my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are Zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own the did not submit to God's righteousness, Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

 

[Soyeong]

Romans chapter 9 verses 30-Romans chapter 10 verse 4
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written: See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame. Brothers my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are Zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own the did not submit to God's righteousness, Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

If we demonstrate that we trust God about how we are to live through following his instructions, then we are living by faith. God's instructions have always been meant to be obeyed by faith in a way that builds a relationship between Him and His people, however, God's instructions can be obeyed for reasons other than faith, such as legalism, and God has always disdained it when His people outwardly obeyed His instructions while their hearts were far from Him (Isaiah 29:13, Mark 7:6-13). The problem was not that God gave Israel faulty instructions for how to live and that Israel did not obtain righteousness because they obeyed what God told them to do, but rather the problem was that they pursued God's instructions in the wrong way, as if righteousness were by works rather than by faith.

God is holy, righteous, and good, and He gave instructions for how to live in accordance with his character, so to say that those instructions have been ended is to say that God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness have ended. Rather, Messiah is the goal of God's instructions because they are all about him, he is the one who can pay our penalty for disobeying them, and He is the one who can cause us to obey them, thereby meeting their righteous requirement (Romans 8:4).

 

[bugkiller]

Do you not think Christian should obey the commands in the NT?

Such as...

Note sure what this is in regard to.

Really?

SDA are right about some things and wrong about others.

So how does that correlate to what I said?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I bet you say that to D.L. Moody, R.C Sproul, C.H. Spurgeon, Baptist Confession of Faith, Westminster Confession of Faith... et all who uphold the Bible TEN Commandments in opposition to your own war on God's Ten Commandments.

Nope, cause I understand what they're saying.

You simply cast all the world as "SDA"?

Nope!!!

Tilting at windmills?

Well you try very hard to tilt them.

bugkiller

 

[Soyeong]

Such as...

bugkiller

The NT has 1,050 commands in regard to how to live this life and you called that a stuffy religion, which implies to me that you don't think Christians should follow all of the commands in the NT. Is that true? If so, which commands in the NT do you think Christians shouldn't follow?

Sinful actions are actions done in disobedience to God, so being saved from doing sinful actions necessarily involves being made to stop doing sinful actions and being made to do actions that in obedience to God. Being saved from doing sinful actions also involves being saved from the penalty of doing those actions, which is indeed a free gift, but not all that our salvation entails.

 

[bugkiller]

The NT has 1,050 commands in regard to how to live this life and you called that a stuffy religion, which implies to me that you don't think Christians should follow all of the commands in the NT. Is that true? If so, which commands in the NT do you think Christians shouldn't follow?

Sinful actions are actions done in disobedience to God, so being saved from doing sinful actions necessarily involves being made to stop doing sinful actions and being made to do actions that in obedience to God. Being saved from doing sinful actions also involves being saved from the penalty of doing those actions, which is indeed a free gift, but not all that our salvation entails.

You're most likely unhappy because I don't keep the Sabbath not commanded in the NT of Christians anywhere. Besides the NT says to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and you demand us to follow law. You void grace as the NT says. I would quote the Scripture for you if I thought it would be beneficial. I quit casting my pearls in front of the wrong kind of people for the most part.

bugkiller

 

[Soyeong]

Besides the NT says to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and you demand us to follow law. You void grace as the NT says.

bugkiller

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

God's grace brings about the obedience of faith (Romans 1:5) and trains us to have a godly conduct and to renounce having an ungodly conduct. Obedience to the commands of God is the way to have a godly conduct and disobedience to the commands of God is the way to have an ungodly conduct. Strong's defines "grace" as "the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life" and God's commands are the way to do His will, so when God influences us to do His will and His will is reflected in our lives, it takes the form of obedience to His commands. OT Scriptures are the way to do good works (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and God is purifying for Himself a people of for His own possession who are zealous for doing good works. We are new creations in Messiah for the purpose of doing good works (Ephesians 2:10). The law is of the Spirit (Romans 7:14) and the Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). The Spirit is not in disagreement with the Father about what conduct we should have, so the Spirit will not lead us in disobedience to the Father's commands.

 

[Bob S]

Now the Messianic is posting 1,050 laws found in the New Testament. That is great. Messianic reasoning should indicate that among those 1,050 laws we surely would find all the laws found in the book of the law you know like instructions on Sabbath observance, rules on how we today should obverse feast days, and laws regarding what to do with those that refuse to observe those days. I write this because Jesus even said the Temple would be torn down and the Jews would be scattered to other nations. He knew the Levitical Priesthood would end and the laws would never be governed again. This becomes a conundrum for all who would have Christians under Torah law. We would have to wing it as to what to do with those of us who refuse to observe Sabbath by going out and picking up sticks. The USDA would surely be on us for butchering lambs in our apartments and offering bulls for burnt offerings in our backyard alters. Yep, absolutely no instructions in all of those 1,050 laws pertaining to modified Torah rules. We all would have to wing it when trying to observe Torah. Oh, I forgot tithing laws. Jesus knew that the Jews, almost all of them, would become merchants, doctors and other professionals yet He didn't leave them a way to pay tithe under Torah law. According to Messianics and other tithing thumpers they have the same conundrum, no way to pay the preacher because shekels were never used, only crops and animals. Can you just imagine Soyeong bringing in a wagon load of corn and ten cows and bulls up to the meeting place? You say that is funny, I say that is what the law said and there is no instruction as to how to modify the Torah.

There is a better law, the real expression of God's character that is the law of loving others, the key to living a Christian life. Our law doesn't cause a conundrum, it isn't asking us to observe a bunch of rituals that would not pertain to a Christian life. Thank you Lord for the simple plan of salvation found in the Holy Writ under the New Covenant.

 

[disciple1]

If we demonstrate that we trust God about how we are to live through following his instructions, then we are living by faith. God's instructions have always been meant to be obeyed by faith in a way that builds a relationship between Him and His people, however, God's instructions can be obeyed for reasons other than faith, such as legalism, and God has always disdained it when His people outwardly obeyed His instructions while their hearts were far from Him (Isaiah 29:13, Mark 7:6-13). The problem was not that God gave Israel faulty instructions for how to live and that Israel did not obtain righteousness because they obeyed what God told them to do, but rather the problem was that they pursued God's instructions in the wrong way, as if righteousness were by works rather than by faith.

God is holy, righteous, and good, and He gave instructions for how to live in accordance with his character, so to say that those instructions have been ended is to say that God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness have ended. Rather, Messiah is the goal of God's instructions because they are all about him, he is the one who can pay our penalty for disobeying them, and He is the one who can cause us to obey them, thereby meeting their righteous requirement (Romans 8:4).

You don't obey the law.
Galatians chapter 2
15 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[d] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

 

[disciple1]

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

God's grace brings about the obedience of faith (Romans 1:5) and trains us to have a godly conduct and to renounce having an ungodly conduct. Obedience to the commands of God is the way to have a godly conduct and disobedience to the commands of God is the way to have an ungodly conduct. Strong's defines "grace" as "the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life" and God's commands are the way to do His will, so when God influences us to do His will and His will is reflected in our lives, it takes the form of obedience to His commands. OT Scriptures are the way to do good works (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and God is purifying for Himself a people of for His own possession who are zealous for doing good works. We are new creations in Messiah for the purpose of doing good works (Ephesians 2:10). The law is of the Spirit (Romans 7:14) and the Spirit has the role of leading us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). The Spirit is not in disagreement with the Father about what conduct we should have, so the Spirit will not lead us in disobedience to the Father's commands.

Galatians chapter 3
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

 

[Soyeong]

Galatians chapter 3
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Do you agree that Hebrews 11 contains examples of people who lived by faith by obeying God's instructions? If so, then you should agree that demonstrating that we trust God enough to obey His instructions is the way to live by faith, which includes obedience to His law, so clearly Paul was talking about a different law that was not based on faith. The phrase "works of law" refers to works of any law with the exception that it specifically does not refer to God's law, though it is often used to refer to man-made traditions for how they thought people should obey God's law. The Book of the Law speaks about the faith of Abraham, so those who rely on works of the law rather than abide by what is written in the Book of the Law are not living by the faith of Abraham, and thus are under a curse for failing to do everything that is written in the Book of the Law.

You don't obey the law.
Galatians chapter 2
15 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[d] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Again, "works of law" does not refer to God's law, but to Jewish traditions for how how to obey God's law. There was a group going around saying that Gentiles had to follow their traditions in order to be saved (Acts 15:1) and Paul was arguing that no one is justified by obeying their traditions. I agree that we can't obey God's law perfectly, but it doesn't follow that therefore we shouldn't practice obedience to it and practice repentance when we sin in disobedience to it.

 

[Bob S]

If works of the law and law doesn't mean Torah we have a great problem every place law is refered to in the writings of Paul. It would seem like you are making up your own rules as to what means what. Jesus way is much simpler and I for one will follow Jesus way.

 

[disciple1]

Do you agree that Hebrews 11 contains examples of people who lived by faith by obeying God's instructions? If so, then you should agree that demonstrating that we trust God enough to obey His instructions is the way to live by faith, which includes obedience to His law, so clearly Paul was talking about a different law that was not based on faith. The phrase "works of law" refers to works of any law with the exception that it specifically does not refer to God's law, though it is often used to refer to man-made traditions for how they thought people should obey God's law. The Book of the Law speaks about the faith of Abraham, so those who rely on works of the law rather than abide by what is written in the Book of the Law are not living by the faith of Abraham, and thus are under a curse for failing to do everything that is written in the Book of the Law.



Again, "works of law" does not refer to God's law, but to Jewish traditions for how how to obey God's law. There was a group going around saying that Gentiles had to follow their traditions in order to be saved (Acts 15:1) and Paul was arguing that no one is justified by obeying their traditions. I agree that we can't obey God's law perfectly, but it doesn't follow that therefore we shouldn't practice obedience to it and practice repentance when we sin in disobedience to it.

I agree with Bob S.
2 Peter chapter 3 verse 16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Soyeong why don't you pray for wisdom and understanding so you can be set free.
John chapter 8 verse 31,32
To the Jews who believed him Jesus said if you hold to my teaching you are really my disciples and you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free.
Your a slave and your teaching slavery, I feel sorry for you if you don't change, your also making slaves of others who think you know what your talking about.
Just keep praying maybe God will have mercy on you.

 

[Soyeong]

Now the Messianic is posting 1,050 laws found in the New Testament. That is great. Messianic reasoning should indicate that among those 1,050 laws we surely would find all the laws found in the book of the law you know like instructions on Sabbath observance, rules on how we today should obverse feast days, and laws regarding what to do with those that refuse to observe those days. I write this because Jesus even said the Temple would be torn down and the Jews would be scattered to other nations. He knew the Levitical Priesthood would end and the laws would never be governed again. This becomes a conundrum for all who would have Christians under Torah law. We would have to wing it as to what to do with those of us who refuse to observe Sabbath by going out and picking up sticks. The USDA would surely be on us for butchering lambs in our apartments and offering bulls for burnt offerings in our backyard alters. Yep, absolutely no instructions in all of those 1,050 laws pertaining to modified Torah rules. We all would have to wing it when trying to observe Torah. Oh, I forgot tithing laws. Jesus knew that the Jews, almost all of them, would become merchants, doctors and other professionals yet He didn't leave them a way to pay tithe under Torah law. According to Messianics and other tithing thumpers they have the same conundrum, no way to pay the preacher because shekels were never used, only crops and animals. Can you just imagine Soyeong bringing in a wagon load of corn and ten cows and bulls up to the meeting place? You say that is funny, I say that is what the law said and there is no instruction as to how to modify the Torah.

The 1,050 laws in the NT are further instructions on how to obey the laws of the OT, but it was not necessary to go down the line repeating every OT law. Messiah taught to obey OT law both word and by example of walking in obedience to it, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:4-6), and to imitate him (1 Corinthians 11:1), so the NT doesn't need to repeat every OT law in order for us to know what we should obey God's commands. Paul continued to live in obedience to the Torah (Acts 21:24) and Gentiles were already keeping the Sabbath and learning about how to keep the law (Acts 15:21). He also encouraged the Colossians not to let any man keep them from obey God's appointed times (Colossians 2:16).

Paul took a vow that involved making sacrifices (Acts 18:18, Numbers 6) and was on his way to pay for the sacrifices of others who were taking that vow (Acts 21:20-24), so sacrifices did not stop with the death and resurrection of Jesus, but rather they continued up until the destruction of the temple and will resume when the third temple is built (Ezekiel 44-46). We may not know who the descendants of Levi are, but that is no mystery to God. Messiah died to pay the penalty for our sins, so there is no need to enforce the penalty for breaking the Sabbath when it has already been paid, though we should still follow Messiah's example of obedience by faith. The tithing laws were in regard to the conduct of people who grew crops, but the law is of the Spirit (Romans 7:14), so it is meant to teach us spiritual principles that we can and should still follow. I'm not sure why you think money couldn't used.

There is a better law, the real expression of God's character that is the law of loving others, the key to living a Christian life. Our law doesn't cause a conundrum, it isn't asking us to observe a bunch of rituals that would not pertain to a Christian life. Thank you Lord for the simple plan of salvation found in the Holy Writ under the New Covenant.

Jesus summarized OT law as being about how to love God and how to love others, so the law of love precisely is OT law, and he showed us how to love God and others through his obedience to it. Jesus did not add or subtract a single law from the OT law, otherwise he would have been sinning (Deuteronomy 4:2), and would have been unable to save us. The rituals in the OT are God's instructions for how to have a holy conduct, and as part of the NT, we are also instructed to have a holy conduct (1 Peter 1:14-16), which means that we are also to follow those instructions. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4), so our salvation in from transgressing the law for the purpose of coming into obedience to it in accordance with Messiah's example. We aren't saved by obedience to God, but for the purpose of obeying Him.

 

[Soyeong]

If works of the law and law doesn't mean Torah we have a great problem every place law is refered to in the writings of Paul. It would seem like you are making up your own rules as to what means what. Jesus way is much simpler and I for one will follow Jesus way.

Galatians 2:16 having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.' (YLT)

There is no definitive article in the Greek, so the YLT literally translates the phrase as "works of law" rather than "works of the law", which means it refers to works of any law rather than a specific law. Paul never used the phrase to refer to OT law, though he did use it to refer to man made traditions about how some Jews thought God's law should be obeyed. If you look at Qumran text 4QMMT, it uses the same phrase to refer to their traditions that they are giving to someone else by which they will become righteous. Throughout Galatians, Paul is facing the same problem with a group who is wanting Gentiles to obey their traditions in order to be saved, which is the same issue raised in Acts 15:1. Jesus set a perfect example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the law, and we are told to follow his example and walk in the same way that he walked, so following his way precisely is following OT law in the way that he taught it and the way that he lived it out.