Gal 4 "under the Law" vs "under Grace" in Romans 6 and not sinning

[Bob S]

Not sure what point you're trying to make.
A) The law was given to make people righteous.....

That is truly wrong my friend, the law was given to point out sin. It had no power to make anyone righteous.

Deu 6:25 ‘Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the LORD our God, as He has commanded us.’

If Israel could have kept all the law they surely would have been righteous. Jesus would not have had to come to save mankind from the power of the law, any law given by God to His children anywhere. Israel and all the population of the World has failed miserably in keeping the laws that God has given them.

B)The law gives sin strength because it condemns the sinner by announcing a death sentence on specific sins.
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
If you didn't know, death has always resulted from sin, with or without the law. The flood is a prime example in scriptures.

Now you are in harmony with scripture.

 

[Soyeong]

Then why bother?

bugkiller

A lot of Christianity is about how you live this life. Even if you only live this life by what is written in the NT, the NT has 1,050 commands to follow.

 

[Bob S]

It looks like what I posted. I'm honored.

bugkiller

When we read the Bible and have the Holy Spirit as our guide we will be in harmony with each other.

I am honored to be your brother in Christ. Keep up the good work. Never give up on those spreading a false gospel. It takes time and the fruits of our labor are being seen as thousands are coming out the back doors of Adventism. Their hinges have become weak and those doors are falling off. They are spending millions upon millions trying to convert the unsuspecting and reaping but few.

I thank the forum providers for allowing Christians to spread the true gospel of Christ.

 

[Bob S]

A lot of Christianity is about how you live this life. Even if you only live this life by what is written in the NT, the NT has 1,050 commands to follow.

So Soyeong, Why in the world would we have to look at a defunct Torah with all the rituals aimed for Israel only to do the will of God? Isn't 1,050 laws enough? We cannot even keep NC laws let alone keep a bunch of OC ritual laws that didn't even pertain to Christians.

Truly, my friend, you have been hoodwinked along the way. Someone or some people have loved you into their flock and you have eaten their false fruit. My prayers are that you will realize the real truth, walk away from those loving people and proclaim your victory over false doctrines.

 

[Soyeong]

Because it is a facade that's why. Folks say it isn't about salvation because the rules say they can't say it but in reality their arguments are null and void if they don't attach keeping the 10 commandments with salvation. I think either they need to get rid of the rule and let them outright say it or enforce even implications of it here instead of allowing them to do everything short of outright saying you go to hell for not keeping the Sabbath etc.

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

What God's grace is bringing in these verses describe what our salvation looks like. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21), and sin is lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so we have been saved from the penalty of doing the things that God revealed in his law are sin (Romans 7:7), and we are also being saved from doing those things. God's grace brings salvation through training us to renounce what God has said in His law are ungodly and worldly passions, through training us to live what God has said in His law are upright and godly lives, through our faith in a redeemer from all lawlessness, and is for the purpose of purifying for Himself a people of His own possession who are zealous for doing the things that God has said in His law are good works (Acts 21:20). Paul said that we are made new creations in Messiah for the purpose of doing good works (Ephesians 2:10) and that all OT Scriptures (which primarily includes God's law) are God-breathed and profitable for equipping us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). So it is not that we are saved through our own efforts by living godly lives through doing good works such as keeping the Sabbath, but rather our salvation is for the purpose of doing those things. In other words, God doesn't demand that we do good works before He grants us right status before Him, but rather He grants us right status before Him so that we will do good works.

Before Christ, we lived ungodly lives, but after putting faith in him to redeem us and to make us like him, we are set free from the penalty of living ungodly lives and are free to be made to be like him in having godly lives as he did in accordance with his perfect example of obedience to the law and in accordance with God's instructions in His law for how to live godly lives. This is the good work that God has begun in us that He will be faithful to complete on the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6). In Hebrews 11, it is full of people who lived by faith through obeying God's commands, so the way for us to live by faith is likewise by demonstrating that we trust God about how we should live through obeying His commands.

 

[Bob S]

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

What God's grace is bringing in these verses describe what our salvation looks like. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21), and sin is lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so we have been saved from the penalty of doing the things that God revealed in his law are sin (Romans 7:7), and we are also being saved from doing those things. God's grace brings salvation through training us to renounce what God has said in His law are ungodly and worldly passions, through training us to live what God has said in His law are upright and godly lives, through our faith in a redeemer from all lawlessness, and is for the purpose of purifying for Himself a people of His own possession who are zealous for doing the things that God has said in His law are good works (Acts 21:20). Paul said that we are made new creations in Messiah for the purpose of doing good works (Ephesians 2:10) and that all OT Scriptures (which primarily includes God's law) are God-breathed and profitable for equipping us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). So it is not that we are saved through our own efforts by living godly lives through doing good works such as keeping the Sabbath, but rather our salvation is for the purpose of doing those things. In other words, God doesn't demand that we do good works before He grants us right status before Him, but rather He grants us right status before Him so that we will do good works.

Before Christ, we lived ungodly lives, but after putting faith in him to redeem us and to make us like him, we are set free from the penalty of living ungodly lives and are free to be made to be like him in having godly lives as he did in accordance with his perfect example of obedience to the law and in accordance with God's instructions in His law for how to live godly lives. This is the good work that God has begun in us that He will be faithful to complete on the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6). In Hebrews 11, it is full of people who lived by faith through obeying God's commands, so the way for us to live by faith is likewise by demonstrating that we trust God about how we should live through obeying His commands.

Yes, save us from sin. The law isn't the thing that saves us from sin. the law points out sin. Sin is transgression of the law. The transgressios, according to John in 1Jn 3, is not believing Jesus and treating our fellow man wrongly. !Jn 3: 19-24. The law is not the Torah that was give only to Israel and ratified with the blood of an animal. the law is the commands given by Jesus and ratified by His own blood. How much plainer could John have been. Who are you going to listen to for the plan of salvation, scripture or the thinking of the people in your church. I give you scripture and you ignore it like a plague

 

[Soyeong]

So Soyeong, Why in the world would we have to look at a defunct Torah with all the rituals aimed for Israel only to do the will of God? Isn't 1,050 laws enough? We cannot even keep NC laws let alone keep a bunch of OC ritual laws that didn't even pertain to Christians.

Truly, my friend, you have been hoodwinked along the way. Someone or some people have loved you into their flock and you have eaten their false fruit. My prayers are that you will realize the real truth, walk away from those loving people and proclaim your victory over false doctrines.

God's Torah is His instructions for how to live in accordance with His character, so to say that it is defunct is to say that God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness are defunct. Rather, we are told to have a holy conduct because God is holy (1 Peter 1:14-16), and those OT rituals are God's instructs for how to have a holy conduct, which verse 16 quotes from. The laws in the NT are further instructions for how to obey the laws of the OT, and while it is true that we can't obey them all perfectly, it does not follow that we should therefore not bother to obey any of them or that we shouldn't practice repentance when we we sin in transgression of them. While it is impossible for us to obey God's law perfectly through our own effort, with Christ nothing is impossible, and through faith in him we can be made to meet the obedience that the law requires (Romans 8:4). Those who have carnal minds refuse to submit to God's law (Romans 8:7).

We must obey God rather than man, so when God says to do something and man says that we shouldn't, then we should obey God and disregard the false teachings of man. The Torah is the way (Psalms 119:1), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 30:19), and Messiah is the the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6), the Torah is God's word, and Messiah is God's word made flesh. If you want to talk about those who have been hoodwinked and led away from the truth, then talk about those who have been led away from following Messiah's example and following the sound teaching of God's Torah (Proverbs 4:2), who have been led to follow the false teachings of man rather than the teachings of God, who choose to identify with the enemies of God rather than to identify with Him through submission to His Torah, and who go back into the slavery of transgressing of His Torah after Christ died to set them free from that. The biggest con job in history was when Satan hoodwinked Eve in the Garden by testing how well she knew the commands of God, and the second biggest con job used the same, where the Church hoodwinked into questioning whether God really commanded something. If you want to walk in victory over false doctrines, then follow the commands of God by faith especially whenever they conflict with the commands of men.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

What God's grace is bringing in these verses describe what our salvation looks like. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21), and sin is lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so we have been saved from the penalty of doing the things that God revealed in his law are sin (Romans 7:7), and we are also being saved from doing those things. God's grace brings salvation through training us to renounce what God has said in His law are ungodly and worldly passions, through training us to live what God has said in His law are upright and godly lives, through our faith in a redeemer from all lawlessness, and is for the purpose of purifying for Himself a people of His own possession who are zealous for doing the things that God has said in His law are good works (Acts 21:20). Paul said that we are made new creations in Messiah for the purpose of doing good works (Ephesians 2:10) and that all OT Scriptures (which primarily includes God's law) are God-breathed and profitable for equipping us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). So it is not that we are saved through our own efforts by living godly lives through doing good works such as keeping the Sabbath, but rather our salvation is for the purpose of doing those things. In other words, God doesn't demand that we do good works before He grants us right status before Him, but rather He grants us right status before Him so that we will do good works.

Before Christ, we lived ungodly lives, but after putting faith in him to redeem us and to make us like him, we are set free from the penalty of living ungodly lives and are free to be made to be like him in having godly lives as he did in accordance with his perfect example of obedience to the law and in accordance with God's instructions in His law for how to live godly lives. This is the good work that God has begun in us that He will be faithful to complete on the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6). In Hebrews 11, it is full of people who lived by faith through obeying God's commands, so the way for us to live by faith is likewise by demonstrating that we trust God about how we should live through obeying His commands.

Nothing here... same old parroting that sin is ONLY defined by the Law and that keeping the Law has one SINLESS when in fact one can properly keep the Law and be in sin according to Jesus hate and lust are now sins. Paul says that those who don't have the law essentially are a law unto themselves and this means they are not sinning without keeping the law because... they don't have the Law. You are essentially trying to pit Paul against Paul and say that Paul says those who don't have the law have the law to keep and are keeping it even though Paul says the opposite.

 

[Soyeong]

Yes, save us from sin. The law isn't the thing that saves us from sin. the law points out sin. Sin is transgression of the law. The transgressios, according to John in 1Jn 3, is not believing Jesus and treating our fellow man wrongly. !Jn 3: 19-24. The law is not the Torah that was give only to Israel and ratified with the blood of an animal. the law is the commands given by Jesus and ratified by His own blood. How much plainer could John have been. Who are you going to listen to for the plan of salvation, scripture or the thinking of the people in your church. I give you scripture and you ignore it like a plague

The law was given to Israel because of transgression to make them aware of their sin, and without it they wouldn't even know what sin was (Romans 7:7). If any Israelite wanted to find out how to do what is righteous or how to avoid doing what is sinful, then it was written down in the Mosaic law. Sin is disobedience to God, so any time an Israelites disobeyed any of God's laws they were sinning. The law is not an exhaustive list of every action that is sinful because the law is spiritual (Romans 7:14) and meant to instruct spiritual principles that the laws listed are examples of, but to say that Messiah was sinless is to say that he lived in perfect accordance with the spiritual principles of the Mosaic law, which includes what it lists.

Jesus summarized the Mosaic law as being about how to love God and how to love others, so the way that we are to love God and others and to treat our fellow man rightly is through obedience to the law. Jesus is our redeemer from lawlessness, so if you believe in him, then you will follow his example of lawfulness, which is in complete accordance with the Torah. In 1 John 2:4-6, it associates obeying Messiah's commandments with walking in the same way that he walked, and Jesus taught to obey the Mosaic law both by word and by example, so His commandments and the Mosaic law are one in the same. Jesus did not add any brand new commands or subtract any old ones, otherwise he would have sinned (Deuteronomy 4:2), and been disqualified from being our savior. I'm not sure how you give me scripture that I've ignored like the plague when I have explained what you have cited while you have ignored the verses that I've cited.

 

[Soyeong]

Nothing here... same old parroting that sin is ONLY defined by the Law and that keeping the Law has one SINLESS when in fact one can properly keep the Law and be in sin according to Jesus hate and lust are now sins. Paul says that those who don't have the law essentially are a law unto themselves and this means they are not sinning without keeping the law because... they don't have the Law. You are essentially trying to pit Paul against Paul and say that Paul says those who don't have the law have the law to keep and are keeping it even though Paul says the opposite.

If you want to argue that more actions are sinful than disobedience to what the Mosaic law instructs, then I would agree with you, but what is sinful is at least disobedience to what the law instructs. We are commanded not to hate back in Leviticus and the command not to lust is the proper understanding of how to obey the command against coveting what your neighbor has and the command against adultery, so Jesus was not teaching anything that was brand new, but rather he was teaching how to correctly understand and obey commands that were old. If he had been adding brand new laws or subtracting old ones, then he would have sinned and been disqualified from being our savior (Deuteronomy 4:2). Jesus didn't give his own teachings apart from what the Father had commanded, but rather he said his teachings were not his own, but belonged to the Father (John 7:16).

In regard to Romans 2:14-15, Paul is saying that those who do not have the Torah, but nevertheless naturally do what it requires are acting as though they have the Torah because their lives show that the conduct the Torah instructs is written on their hearts. This is in accordance with Romans 2:26, where the way that we can tell that someone who doesn't have the Torah has a circumcised heart is by their obedience to the Torah. Paul said that our faith does not abolish the law, but rather that our faith upholds the law (Romans 3:31), so it is you who is trying to pit Paul against Paul. According to 2 Peter 3:14-17, Paul is difficult to understand, but those who are ignorant and unstable twist his words to their own destruction and fall into the error of lawlessness, so you should stop misinterpreting Paul as being in favor of lawlessness.

 

[disciple1]

The Torah is God's guide for how to do His will, how to love Him, how to love others, how to do good works, how to have a righteous conduct, and how to avoid having a sinful conduct. It was never given for the purpose of attaining righteousness through obedience to it, nor have I ever stated that it was, but rather attaining righteousness through the one and only way, by grace through faith, is for the purpose of attaining obedience to the Torah (Romans 8:4). We are made new creations in Messiah for the purpose of doing good works (Ephesians 2:10) and it is OT Scriptures that equip us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Everything that God's grace brings it what our salvation looks like. It is for the purpose of training us to live in obedience to God's law and to renounce lawlessness. Grace is the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life, so when God's will is reflected in our lives, we will according to His guide for how to do His will. If we have faith in God that He knows how to live better than we do, then we will seek to live according to His guide for how to have a righteous conduct, for the righteous shall live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4). To unpack what it means to be saved by grace through faith:

Our salvation is from sin, so we are saved from the penalty of doing what God's law says is sin through faith in a redeemer and we are being saved from doing what God's law says is sin by the grace of God causing His will, which he made known in His law, to be reflected in our lives, through faith that it is better to live according to God's will rather than our own.



It is true that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, but it does not follow at all that therefore we should stop practicing a righteous conduct, and stop refraining from having a sinful conduct, or stop following Messiah's example. Rather, when we falter and sin, we should repent and turn from our ways back to following God's ways.



Deuteronomy 30:19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

Moses was upfront with the fact that he was setting death before Israel, but he was also setting life before them, so choose life, and not disobedience. It would have been ridiculous to for Moses to have said that the law brings death for disobedience so therefore they should disobey it.



2 Corinthians 2:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was,

After speaking with God, Moses' face shone with glory (Exodus 34:29-30), but this glory eventually faded, so this was the glory that was transitory, not God's glory. If Paul had said that God's law was transitory, then he would have been sinning (Deuteronomy 4:2) and a false prophet who was not speaking for God (Deuteronomy 13:4-6), so that's a pretty clear indication that you should reconsider your interpretation. Paul said that our faith in Messiah does not abolish God's law, but rather our upholds it (Romans 3:31).



Heaven and earth have not passed away and not all has been accomplished, both of which refer to end times, so I take Jesus at his word that not the least part has disappeared from the law, including sacrificial laws. Paul took a vow in Acts 18:18 that involved offering sacrifices (Numbers 6) and he was going to pay the expenses of others who had taken that vow in order to show that he continued to live in obedience to the Torah (Acts 21:20-24), so sacrifices did not end with the death or resurrection of Jesus, but rather they continued up until the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, and only stopped because there is no longer a temple in which to do them. However, there are prophecies about a third temple being built when sacrifices will resume (Ezekiel 44-46). So there is no picking and choosing which laws to obey, though there is still discernment is understanding how they apply.



1 John 2:4-6 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

In these verses, obeying Jesus' commands is associated with walking in the same way he walked, and he walked in obedience to the Torah, so he didn't command anything other than obedience to the Torah, which he taught how to do both by word and by example, and which we are also told to follow (1 Peter 2:21-22). Jesus was not in disagreement with the Father or the Spirit about which commands we should obey, but rather he said his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father (John 7:16) and that he only came to do the Father's will (John 6:38). The Spirit also has the role of leading us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Jesus did not add any brand new commands or subtract any olds ones, otherwise he would have sinned (Deuteronomy 4:2). In regard to John 13:34, the command to love our neighbor was nothing new because it was commanded in the OT (Leviticus 19:18), but what was new about it was the quality of the example, where we are to love others as he loved us rather than love others as we love ourselves. The Greek word translated as "new" refers to something that is new with respect to quality, something that is refreshed or refurbished, and does not mean brand new with respect to time. Another verse good verse that shows this contrast is Matthew 7:19, where it talks about wine that is brand new being poured into wineskins that have been refurbished:

http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/9-17.htm

Jesus summarized the law as being about how to love God and how to love your neighbor, and he loved us through his obedience to the law, so if we are to love in the way that he commanded, then we are also to obey the law in following with his example.

Galatians chapter 3
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

but rather attaining righteousness through the one and only way, by grace through faith, is for the purpose of attaining obedience

 

[Soyeong]

Galatians chapter 3
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Galatians 3:10-14 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”[d] 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit[e] through faith.

Do you agree that Hebrews 11 contains examples of people who lived by faith by obeying God's instructions? If so, then you should agree that demonstrating that we trust God enough to obey His instructions is the way to live by faith, which includes obedience to His law, so clearly Paul was talking about a different law that was not based on faith. The phrase "works of law" refers to works of any law with the exception that it specifically does not refer to God's law, though it is often used to refer to man-made traditions for how they thought people should obey God's law. The Book of the Law speaks about the faith of Abraham, so those who rely on works of the law rather than abide by what is written in the Book of the Law are not living by the faith of Abraham, and thus are under a curse for failing to do everything that is written in the Book of the Law.

 

[disciple1]

Galatians 3:10-14 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”[d] 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit[e] through faith.

Do you agree that Hebrews 11 contains examples of people who lived by faith by obeying God's instructions? If so, then you should agree that demonstrating that we trust God enough to obey His instructions is the way to live by faith, which includes obedience to His law, so clearly Paul was talking about a different law that was not based on faith. The phrase "works of law" refers to works of any law with the exception that it specifically does not refer to God's law, though it is often used to refer to man-made traditions for how they thought people should obey God's law. The Book of the Law speaks about the faith of Abraham, so those who rely on works of the law rather than abide by what is written in the Book of the Law are not living by the faith of Abraham, and thus are under a curse for failing to do everything that is written in the Book of the Law.

Galatians chapter 3
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Do you agree that Hebrews 11 contains examples of people who lived by faith by obeying God's instructions? If so, then you should agree that demonstrating that we trust God enough to obey His instructions is the way to live by faith, which includes obedience to His law,

Your saying the law is by faith soyeong but the bible says different as I've shown twice.

 

[Soyeong]

Galatians chapter 3
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Your saying the law is by faith soyeong but the bible says different as I've shown twice.

There are a number of different laws that are discussed in the Bible, not all of them are God's law. I've demonstrated that the law being talked about in verse 12 is not God's law.

 

[disciple1]

There are a number of different laws that are discussed in the Bible, not all of them are God's law. I've demonstrated that the law being talked about in verse 12 is not God's law.

There are a number of different laws that are discussed in the Bible, not all of them are God's law. I've demonstrated that the law being talked about in verse 12 is not God's law.

Who put law in the bible except god, like it says in James chapter 4 their is only one law giver and judge the one who is able to save or destroy.

 

[bugkiller]

A lot of Christianity is about how you live this life. Even if you only live this life by what is written in the NT, the NT has 1,050 commands to follow.

You have a very stuffy religion. You keep it and I'll take the free gift.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

What God's grace is bringing in these verses describe what our salvation looks like. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21), and sin is lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so we have been saved from the penalty of doing the things that God revealed in his law are sin (Romans 7:7), and we are also being saved from doing those things. God's grace brings salvation through training us to renounce what God has said in His law are ungodly and worldly passions, through training us to live what God has said in His law are upright and godly lives, through our faith in a redeemer from all lawlessness, and is for the purpose of purifying for Himself a people of His own possession who are zealous for doing the things that God has said in His law are good works (Acts 21:20). Paul said that we are made new creations in Messiah for the purpose of doing good works (Ephesians 2:10) and that all OT Scriptures (which primarily includes God's law) are God-breathed and profitable for equipping us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). So it is not that we are saved through our own efforts by living godly lives through doing good works such as keeping the Sabbath, but rather our salvation is for the purpose of doing those things. In other words, God doesn't demand that we do good works before He grants us right status before Him, but rather He grants us right status before Him so that we will do good works.

But your religion does.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

God's Torah is His instructions for how to live in accordance with His character, so to say that it is defunct is to say that God's holiness, righteousness, and goodness are defunct. Rather, we are told to have a holy conduct because God is holy (1 Peter 1:14-16), and those OT rituals are God's instructs for how to have a holy conduct, which verse 16 quotes from. The laws in the NT are further instructions for how to obey the laws of the OT, and while it is true that we can't obey them all perfectly, it does not follow that we should therefore not bother to obey any of them or that we shouldn't practice repentance when we we sin in transgression of them. While it is impossible for us to obey God's law perfectly through our own effort, with Christ nothing is impossible, and through faith in him we can be made to meet the obedience that the law requires (Romans 8:4). Those who have carnal minds refuse to submit to God's law (Romans 8:7).

We must obey God rather than man, so when God says to do something and man says that we shouldn't, then we should obey God and disregard the false teachings of man. The Torah is the way (Psalms 119:1), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 30:19), and Messiah is the the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6), the Torah is God's word, and Messiah is God's word made flesh. If you want to talk about those who have been hoodwinked and led away from the truth, then talk about those who have been led away from following Messiah's example and following the sound teaching of God's Torah (Proverbs 4:2), who have been led to follow the false teachings of man rather than the teachings of God, who choose to identify with the enemies of God rather than to identify with Him through submission to His Torah, and who go back into the slavery of transgressing of His Torah after Christ died to set them free from that. The biggest con job in history was when Satan hoodwinked Eve in the Garden by testing how well she knew the commands of God, and the second biggest con job used the same, where the Church hoodwinked into questioning whether God really commanded something. If you want to walk in victory over false doctrines, then follow the commands of God by faith especially whenever they conflict with the commands of men.

You still post exactly like and SDA.

bugkiller

 

[Sophrosyne]

If you want to argue that more actions are sinful than disobedience to what the Mosaic law instructs, then I would agree with you, but what is sinful is at least disobedience to what the law instructs. We are commanded not to hate back in Leviticus and the command not to lust is the proper understanding of how to obey the command against coveting what your neighbor has and the command against adultery, so Jesus was not teaching anything that was brand new, but rather he was teaching how to correctly understand and obey commands that were old. If he had been adding brand new laws or subtracting old ones, then he would have sinned and been disqualified from being our savior (Deuteronomy 4:2). Jesus didn't give his own teachings apart from what the Father had commanded, but rather he said his teachings were not his own, but belonged to the Father (John 7:16).

In regard to Romans 2:14-15, Paul is saying that those who do not have the Torah, but nevertheless naturally do what it requires are acting as though they have the Torah because their lives show that the conduct the Torah instructs is written on their hearts. This is in accordance with Romans 2:26, where the way that we can tell that someone who doesn't have the Torah has a circumcised heart is by their obedience to the Torah. Paul said that our faith does not abolish the law, but rather that our faith upholds the law (Romans 3:31), so it is you who is trying to pit Paul against Paul. According to 2 Peter 3:14-17, Paul is difficult to understand, but those who are ignorant and unstable twist his words to their own destruction and fall into the error of lawlessness, so you should stop misinterpreting Paul as being in favor of lawlessness.

Using the word "Torah" is meaningless in a discussion it is way too vague to nail down to what it means and the limits of it in scripture. If you want to talk Torah I suggest you go debate in the Messianic area with those people and come back and tell me what exactly it means when they decide.

 

[Soyeong]

Who put law in the bible except god, like it says in James chapter 4 their is only one law giver and judge the one who is able to save or destroy.

Acts 10:28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.

You can not find this law that Peter was talking about anywhere in the Torah because God never commanded it. Rather it was a man-made law that governed how they thought God's law should be kept. So while it is true that there is one Lawgiver and one Judge in regard to who is able to save and destroy, that is not denying that men have made other laws that have nothing to do with who will be saved or destroyed or that the Bible talks about laws.