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Gal 4 "under the Law" vs "under Grace" in Romans 6 and not sinning

disciple1

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It is completely ridiculous to hold the position that God is not pleased by His people obeying Him by faith. Throughout the Bible, God has consistently wanted His people to turn from their ways are follow His commands by faith. If God did not want us to live in obedience by faith, then He wouldn't have made repentance from our sins in disobedience to His law an integral part of the Gospel. The law instructs how to have a perfect conduct, but it never made anyone perfect and God never gave the law for that reason in the first place. If we have faith that God knows how we should live, then we will obey His law, so His law has always been about how to live righteously by faith, for the righteous shall live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4). It is only through faith in Christ that we can be made to have the perfect conduct that the law requires (Romans 8:4). God's law instructs us to love others and to defend the cause of the poor and needy, so doing that by faith is living in accordance with God's law, not apart from it.
It is completely ridiculous to hold the position that God is not pleased by His people obeying Him by faith.
Galatians chapter 3
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
 
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Bob S

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I have repeatedly told you that you do that we do not become righteous by obeying the law - that was was never the reason why God instructed Israel to obey it. The only way to become righteous and by grace through faith, not by works, but rather we are new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works (Ephesians 2:8-10) and the law is God's instructions for how to do good works (2 Timothy 3:16-17)............

I just read through your post and would like to make a few comments. You write that the law, and I interpret your use of law meaning the Torah since you are a Messianic believer, is our guide to our righteousness. I totally agree the law was Israel's guide to righteousness and also their worst enemy if they didn't keep it. Paul calls the 10 commandments the ministry of death. He goes on to tell us the 10 were temporary commands. Why would Paul write temporary and yet there are those of you that tell us the Torah is the guide for Christians. Isn't the 10 part of the Torah? They were included in the book of the law which included all the commands of God to the children of Israel. This in its self is a conundrum and I have not included all of the rules that had to be specifically carried out by those under Torah. There were specific laws that would almost be impossible for Christians today to carry out. I am sure you recognize this fact. If you want me to name some of them I will be happy to do so.

The fact is Messianics do not keep Torah as attaining righteousness. I am not writing this as a condemnation post. We all have our own interpretation of how to gain righteousness. We all fall short of the Glory of God. Thank God we have an advocate, Jesus Christ, to cover for our mortal nature.

Your last paragraph worries me greatly. Your first sentence is right on then you add a "but". Your but does not make sense to me. First you say the new covenant has better promises, then it is written in our hearts. Then you tell us it is the same covenant as the one containing the Torah. How could that be. Even you will admit that the sacrificial laws have been removed. Yes, Jesus became the final sacrifice. The fact is that Jesus told us not one jot or one tittle would pass from Torah until all is accomplished (finished). So yes, the sacrifices are gone and all who tell us we have to observe Torah are picking and choosing which ones they believe are applicable. Who gives you the authority to pick and choose? Either all or believe Paul and John and come to the same conclusion that I have and that is the Christian who is a true believer will keep the commands of Jesus which comes from His words in John 13
John 13:34
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

1Jn3:19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
 
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Cribstyl

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Jesus didn't teach nor bring the law according to JN 1:17 and the Sermon on the Mount found in Matthew. Jesus didn't require the keeping of the law either - JH 15:10.
Agreement
 
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Bob S

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If Jesus had said nothing and had only lived in perfect obedience to the law, then he still would have taught how to obey the law by example. As it is, Jesus taught how to obey it both by word and by example, and the Sermon on the Mount is a perfect example of him teaching how to obey the law. Whenever Jesus quoted from the law he said "it is written", but when he was quoting from what the teachers of the law were saying about the law he said "you have heard it said". For example:

Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

While the law certainly says to love your neighbor (Leviticus 19:18), it does not say to hate your enemy - that is what the teachers of the law had been wrongly teaching. So Jesus was fulfilling the law by correcting the teachers of the law and teaching how to correctly understand and obey it.

John 1:16-17 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.[d] 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Grace was added to grace, so the grace and truth that came through Christ was added to the grace of the law. Strong's defines "grace" as "the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life" and the law is God's instructions for how to do His will, so the reflection of God's will in our lives is obedience to His law.



I have no idea why you think any of those verse counter Deuteronomy 13. If any of those verses hold the interpretation that you think they do, then according to Deuteronomy 13, the authors of those verses were false prophets, and we should disregard that they said. So you should either disregard those verses or reconsider your faulty interpretation.



The fact that God's law brings death for disobedience should be a reason to obey it, not disobey it.



Grace released us from punishment for disobedience to the law because it is by grace through faith that God's will is reflected in our lives and we are able to obey it.



The New Covenant has better promises listed in Jeremiah 31, but it also involves God writing His law on our hearts, so it is not a change from law, but rather we have a better means of obeying God's law.
I just read through your post and would like to make a few comments. You write that the law, and I interpret your use of law meaning the Torah since you are a Messianic believer, is our guide to our righteousness. I totally agree the law was Israel's guide to righteousness and also their worst enemy if they didn't keep it. Paul calls the 10 commandments the ministry of death. He goes on to tell us the 10 were temporary commands. Why would Paul write temporary and yet there are those of you that tell us the Torah is the guide for Christians. Isn't the 10 part of the Torah? They were included in the book of the law which included all the commands of God to the children of Israel. This in its self is a conundrum and I have not included all of the rules that had to be specifically carried out by those under Torah. There were specific laws that would almost be impossible for Christians today to carry out. I am sure you recognize this fact. If you want me to name some of them I will be happy to do so.

The fact is Messianics do not keep Torah as attaining righteousness. I am not writing this as a condemnation post. We all have our own interpretation of how to gain righteousness. We all fall short of the Glory of God. Thank God we have an advocate, Jesus Christ, to cover for our mortal nature.

Your last paragraph worries me greatly. Your first sentence is right on then you add a "but". Your but does not make sense to me. First you say the new covenant has better promises, then it is written in our hearts. Then you tell us it is the same covenant as the one containing the Torah. How could that be. Even you will admit that the sacrificial laws have been removed. Yes, Jesus became the final sacrifice. The fact is that Jesus told us not one jot or one tittle would pass from Torah until all is accomplished (finished). So yes, the sacrifices are gone and all who tell us we have to observe Torah are picking and choosing which ones they believe are applicable. Who gives you the authority to pick and choose? Either all or believe Paul and John and come to the same conclusion that I have and that is the Christian who is a true believer will keep the commands of Jesus which comes from His words in John 13
John 13:34
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

1Jn3:19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.[/QUOTE]Excellent truths, but "we" don't expect Soyeong to agree with it.[/QUOTE]

I have a problem. I have no recollection of ever writing the following:
Bob S said:
Jesus didn't teach nor bring the law according to JN 1:17 and the Sermon on the Mount found in Matthew. Jesus didn't require the keeping of the law either - JH 15:10.

Where did you copy that from?
 
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Soyeong

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I just read through your post and would like to make a few comments. You write that the law, and I interpret your use of law meaning the Torah since you are a Messianic believer, is our guide to our righteousness. I totally agree the law was Israel's guide to righteousness and also their worst enemy if they didn't keep it.

The Torah is God's guide for how to do His will, how to love Him, how to love others, how to do good works, how to have a righteous conduct, and how to avoid having a sinful conduct. It was never given for the purpose of attaining righteousness through obedience to it, nor have I ever stated that it was, but rather attaining righteousness through the one and only way, by grace through faith, is for the purpose of attaining obedience to the Torah (Romans 8:4). We are made new creations in Messiah for the purpose of doing good works (Ephesians 2:10) and it is OT Scriptures that equip us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Everything that God's grace brings it what our salvation looks like. It is for the purpose of training us to live in obedience to God's law and to renounce lawlessness. Grace is the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life, so when God's will is reflected in our lives, we will according to His guide for how to do His will. If we have faith in God that He knows how to live better than we do, then we will seek to live according to His guide for how to have a righteous conduct, for the righteous shall live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4). To unpack what it means to be saved by grace through faith:

Our salvation is from sin, so we are saved from the penalty of doing what God's law says is sin through faith in a redeemer and we are being saved from doing what God's law says is sin by the grace of God causing His will, which he made known in His law, to be reflected in our lives, through faith that it is better to live according to God's will rather than our own.


The fact is Messianics do not keep Torah as attaining righteousness. I am not writing this as a condemnation post. We all have our own interpretation of how to gain righteousness. We all fall short of the Glory of God. Thank God we have an advocate, Jesus Christ, to cover for our mortal nature.

It is true that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, but it does not follow at all that therefore we should stop practicing a righteous conduct, and stop refraining from having a sinful conduct, or stop following Messiah's example. Rather, when we falter and sin, we should repent and turn from our ways back to following God's ways.

Paul calls the 10 commandments the ministry of death.

Deuteronomy 30:19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

Moses was upfront with the fact that he was setting death before Israel, but he was also setting life before them, so choose life, and not disobedience. It would have been ridiculous to for Moses to have said that the law brings death for disobedience so therefore they should disobey it.

He goes on to tell us the 10 were temporary commands. Why would Paul write temporary and yet there are those of you that tell us the Torah is the guide for Christians. Isn't the 10 part of the Torah? They were included in the book of the law which included all the commands of God to the children of Israel. This in its self is a conundrum and I have not included all of the rules that had to be specifically carried out by those under Torah. There were specific laws that would almost be impossible for Christians today to carry out. I am sure you recognize this fact. If you want me to name some of them I will be happy to do so.

2 Corinthians 2:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was,

After speaking with God, Moses' face shone with glory (Exodus 34:29-30), but this glory eventually faded, so this was the glory that was transitory, not God's glory. If Paul had said that God's law was transitory, then he would have been sinning (Deuteronomy 4:2) and a false prophet who was not speaking for God (Deuteronomy 13:4-6), so that's a pretty clear indication that you should reconsider your interpretation. Paul said that our faith in Messiah does not abolish God's law, but rather our upholds it (Romans 3:31).

Your last paragraph worries me greatly. Your first sentence is right on then you add a "but". Your but does not make sense to me. First you say the new covenant has better promises, then it is written in our hearts. Then you tell us it is the same covenant as the one containing the Torah. How could that be. Even you will admit that the sacrificial laws have been removed. Yes, Jesus became the final sacrifice. The fact is that Jesus told us not one jot or one tittle would pass from Torah until all is accomplished (finished). So yes, the sacrifices are gone and all who tell us we have to observe Torah are picking and choosing which ones they believe are applicable. Who gives you the authority to pick and choose?

Heaven and earth have not passed away and not all has been accomplished, both of which refer to end times, so I take Jesus at his word that not the least part has disappeared from the law, including sacrificial laws. Paul took a vow in Acts 18:18 that involved offering sacrifices (Numbers 6) and he was going to pay the expenses of others who had taken that vow in order to show that he continued to live in obedience to the Torah (Acts 21:20-24), so sacrifices did not end with the death or resurrection of Jesus, but rather they continued up until the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, and only stopped because there is no longer a temple in which to do them. However, there are prophecies about a third temple being built when sacrifices will resume (Ezekiel 44-46). So there is no picking and choosing which laws to obey, though there is still discernment is understanding how they apply.

Either all or believe Paul and John and come to the same conclusion that I have and that is the Christian who is a true believer will keep the commands of Jesus which comes from His words in John 13
John 13:34
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

1Jn3:19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

1 John 2:4-6 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

In these verses, obeying Jesus' commands is associated with walking in the same way he walked, and he walked in obedience to the Torah, so he didn't command anything other than obedience to the Torah, which he taught how to do both by word and by example, and which we are also told to follow (1 Peter 2:21-22). Jesus was not in disagreement with the Father or the Spirit about which commands we should obey, but rather he said his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father (John 7:16) and that he only came to do the Father's will (John 6:38). The Spirit also has the role of leading us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Jesus did not add any brand new commands or subtract any olds ones, otherwise he would have sinned (Deuteronomy 4:2). In regard to John 13:34, the command to love our neighbor was nothing new because it was commanded in the OT (Leviticus 19:18), but what was new about it was the quality of the example, where we are to love others as he loved us rather than love others as we love ourselves. The Greek word translated as "new" refers to something that is new with respect to quality, something that is refreshed or refurbished, and does not mean brand new with respect to time. Another verse good verse that shows this contrast is Matthew 7:19, where it talks about wine that is brand new being poured into wineskins that have been refurbished:

http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/9-17.htm

Jesus summarized the law as being about how to love God and how to love your neighbor, and he loved us through his obedience to the law, so if we are to love in the way that he commanded, then we are also to obey the law in following with his example.
 
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disciple1

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I just read through your post and would like to make a few comments. You write that the law, and I interpret your use of law meaning the Torah since you are a Messianic believer, is our guide to our righteousness. I totally agree the law was Israel's guide to righteousness and also their worst enemy if they didn't keep it. Paul calls the 10 commandments the ministry of death. He goes on to tell us the 10 were temporary commands. Why would Paul write temporary and yet there are those of you that tell us the Torah is the guide for Christians. Isn't the 10 part of the Torah? They were included in the book of the law which included all the commands of God to the children of Israel. This in its self is a conundrum and I have not included all of the rules that had to be specifically carried out by those under Torah. There were specific laws that would almost be impossible for Christians today to carry out. I am sure you recognize this fact. If you want me to name some of them I will be happy to do so.

The fact is Messianics do not keep Torah as attaining righteousness. I am not writing this as a condemnation post. We all have our own interpretation of how to gain righteousness. We all fall short of the Glory of God. Thank God we have an advocate, Jesus Christ, to cover for our mortal nature.

Your last paragraph worries me greatly. Your first sentence is right on then you add a "but". Your but does not make sense to me. First you say the new covenant has better promises, then it is written in our hearts. Then you tell us it is the same covenant as the one containing the Torah. How could that be. Even you will admit that the sacrificial laws have been removed. Yes, Jesus became the final sacrifice. The fact is that Jesus told us not one jot or one tittle would pass from Torah until all is accomplished (finished). So yes, the sacrifices are gone and all who tell us we have to observe Torah are picking and choosing which ones they believe are applicable. Who gives you the authority to pick and choose? Either all or believe Paul and John and come to the same conclusion that I have and that is the Christian who is a true believer will keep the commands of Jesus which comes from His words in John 13
John 13:34
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

1Jn3:19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
I'm not sure I understood you bob, the law will never make a person righteous it's written somewhere in the bible the power of sin is the law.
Galatians chapter 5 verse 6
the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.
Galatians chapter 3
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
 
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bugkiller

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I just read through your post and would like to make a few comments. You write that the law, and I interpret your use of law meaning the Torah since you are a Messianic believer, is our guide to our righteousness. I totally agree the law was Israel's guide to righteousness and also their worst enemy if they didn't keep it. Paul calls the 10 commandments the ministry of death. He goes on to tell us the 10 were temporary commands. Why would Paul write temporary and yet there are those of you that tell us the Torah is the guide for Christians. Isn't the 10 part of the Torah? They were included in the book of the law which included all the commands of God to the children of Israel. This in its self is a conundrum and I have not included all of the rules that had to be specifically carried out by those under Torah. There were specific laws that would almost be impossible for Christians today to carry out. I am sure you recognize this fact. If you want me to name some of them I will be happy to do so.

The fact is Messianics do not keep Torah as attaining righteousness. I am not writing this as a condemnation post. We all have our own interpretation of how to gain righteousness. We all fall short of the Glory of God. Thank God we have an advocate, Jesus Christ, to cover for our mortal nature.

Your last paragraph worries me greatly. Your first sentence is right on then you add a "but". Your but does not make sense to me. First you say the new covenant has better promises, then it is written in our hearts. Then you tell us it is the same covenant as the one containing the Torah. How could that be. Even you will admit that the sacrificial laws have been removed. Yes, Jesus became the final sacrifice. The fact is that Jesus told us not one jot or one tittle would pass from Torah until all is accomplished (finished). So yes, the sacrifices are gone and all who tell us we have to observe Torah are picking and choosing which ones they believe are applicable. Who gives you the authority to pick and choose? Either all or believe Paul and John and come to the same conclusion that I have and that is the Christian who is a true believer will keep the commands of Jesus which comes from His words in John 13
John 13:34
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

1Jn3:19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: 20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. Excellent truths, but "we" don't expect Soyeong to agree with it.

I have a problem. I have no recollection of ever writing the following:


Where did you copy that from?
It looks like what I posted. I'm honored.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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The Torah is God's guide for how to do His will, how to love Him, how to love others, how to do good works, how to have a righteous conduct, and how to avoid having a sinful conduct. It was never given for the purpose of attaining righteousness through obedience to it, nor have I ever stated that it was, but rather attaining righteousness through the one and only way, by grace through faith, is for the purpose of attaining obedience to the Torah (Romans 8:4). We are made new creations in Messiah for the purpose of doing good works (Ephesians 2:10) and it is OT Scriptures that equip us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Everything that God's grace brings it what our salvation looks like. It is for the purpose of training us to live in obedience to God's law and to renounce lawlessness. Grace is the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life, so when God's will is reflected in our lives, we will according to His guide for how to do His will. If we have faith in God that He knows how to live better than we do, then we will seek to live according to His guide for how to have a righteous conduct, for the righteous shall live by faith (Habakkuk 2:4). To unpack what it means to be saved by grace through faith:

Our salvation is from sin, so we are saved from the penalty of doing what God's law says is sin through faith in a redeemer and we are being saved from doing what God's law says is sin by the grace of God causing His will, which he made known in His law, to be reflected in our lives, through faith that it is better to live according to God's will rather than our own.




It is true that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, but it does not follow at all that therefore we should stop practicing a righteous conduct, and stop refraining from having a sinful conduct, or stop following Messiah's example. Rather, when we falter and sin, we should repent and turn from our ways back to following God's ways.



Deuteronomy 30:19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

Moses was upfront with the fact that he was setting death before Israel, but he was also setting life before them, so choose life, and not disobedience. It would have been ridiculous to for Moses to have said that the law brings death for disobedience so therefore they should disobey it.



2 Corinthians 2:7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was,

After speaking with God, Moses' face shone with glory (Exodus 34:29-30), but this glory eventually faded, so this was the glory that was transitory, not God's glory. If Paul had said that God's law was transitory, then he would have been sinning (Deuteronomy 4:2) and a false prophet who was not speaking for God (Deuteronomy 13:4-6), so that's a pretty clear indication that you should reconsider your interpretation. Paul said that our faith in Messiah does not abolish God's law, but rather our upholds it (Romans 3:31).



Heaven and earth have not passed away and not all has been accomplished, both of which refer to end times, so I take Jesus at his word that not the least part has disappeared from the law, including sacrificial laws. Paul took a vow in Acts 18:18 that involved offering sacrifices (Numbers 6) and he was going to pay the expenses of others who had taken that vow in order to show that he continued to live in obedience to the Torah (Acts 21:20-24), so sacrifices did not end with the death or resurrection of Jesus, but rather they continued up until the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, and only stopped because there is no longer a temple in which to do them. However, there are prophecies about a third temple being built when sacrifices will resume (Ezekiel 44-46). So there is no picking and choosing which laws to obey, though there is still discernment is understanding how they apply.



1 John 2:4-6 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

In these verses, obeying Jesus' commands is associated with walking in the same way he walked, and he walked in obedience to the Torah, so he didn't command anything other than obedience to the Torah, which he taught how to do both by word and by example, and which we are also told to follow (1 Peter 2:21-22). Jesus was not in disagreement with the Father or the Spirit about which commands we should obey, but rather he said his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father (John 7:16) and that he only came to do the Father's will (John 6:38). The Spirit also has the role of leading us in obedience to God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Jesus did not add any brand new commands or subtract any olds ones, otherwise he would have sinned (Deuteronomy 4:2). In regard to John 13:34, the command to love our neighbor was nothing new because it was commanded in the OT (Leviticus 19:18), but what was new about it was the quality of the example, where we are to love others as he loved us rather than love others as we love ourselves. The Greek word translated as "new" refers to something that is new with respect to quality, something that is refreshed or refurbished, and does not mean brand new with respect to time. Another verse good verse that shows this contrast is Matthew 7:19, where it talks about wine that is brand new being poured into wineskins that have been refurbished:

http://biblehub.com/text/matthew/9-17.htm

Jesus summarized the law as being about how to love God and how to love your neighbor, and he loved us through his obedience to the law, so if we are to love in the way that he commanded, then we are also to obey the law in following with his example.
Unfortunately the life Moses was talking about wasn't eternal life. If one reads Deuteronomy closely they will easily see its the here and now physical life being talked about.

bugkiller
 
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Soyeong

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Unfortunately the life Moses was talking about wasn't eternal life. If one reads Deuteronomy closely they will easily see its the here and now physical life being talked about.

bugkiller

I never suggested that he was talking about eternal life. Obedience to the law isn't about eternal life, but about how you rightly live this life by faith in a way that is pleasing to God.
 
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Bob S

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I'm not sure I understood you bob, the law will never make a person righteous
We Christians know that because we are on this side of the Cross. The Israelites were challenged by God through the covenant He made with them at Sinai. If you do, I will. "Do" was to keep all the laws that God laid out for them. They were to become righteous by keeping the law. Some say that it wasn't really keeping the law, they just didn't accept grace or they didn't have the faith. What ever it was they failed to keep the covenant and lost the promised land which was the reward for observance. Their eternal life was just as dependent on the blood of Jesus as it is for us today.

it's written somewhere in the bible the power of sin is the law.
Galatians chapter 5 verse 6
the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.
Galatians chapter 3
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
Yes indeed.
 
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Bob S

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I never suggested that he was talking about eternal life. Obedience to the law isn't about eternal life, but about how you rightly live this life by faith in a way that is pleasing to God.
This is where we disagree. We are sinners made righteous by the blood of Jesus. Grace, grace, marvelous grace. Our righteousness is as filthy rags. Our challenge is to love others as Jesus loves us. All the ritual laws of the defunct covenant given only to Israel have no bearing on how Christians are to live. They are history and not the standard for Christians, love is our standard. We understand that yet we fail miserably just like Israel did under their covenant. Except for Grace we are eternally lost. I don't know about Messianics, but SDAs think they have to do certain things like Sabbath observance, tithing and not partaking of certain foods to gain eternal life. They will try to cover up that fact, but their prophet tells a different story.
 
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Cribstyl

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I'm not sure I understood you bob, the law will never make a person righteous it's written somewhere in the bible the power of sin is the law.
Galatians chapter 5 verse 6
the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.
Galatians chapter 3
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
Not sure what point you're trying to make.
A) The law was given to make people righteous.....
Deu 6:25 ‘Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the LORD our God, as He has commanded us.’

B)The law gives sin strength because it condemns the sinner by announcing a death sentence on specific sins.
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
If you didn't know, death has always resulted from sin, with or without the law. The flood is a prime example in scriptures.
 
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BobRyan

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Rom 9
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

1 John 3:4 - "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" both in OT and also by NT standards

So then in Rom 6 Paul speaks about the obligation not to SIN - even though not "under the law" -- not under the condemnation of the LAW.

Rom 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered

1 john 2:1 "these things I write to you that you sin NOT"

The Covenant at Sinai with Israel included
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

And 40 years later Moses reminds them --
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5

Christ continues to affirm them in Matt 22 , pre-cross - the Law of Moses upheld.

So then why is Paul associating Sinai with the old covenant in Gal 4?

Because the ceremonial law is no longer in effect.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" as compared to the ceremonial laws such as circumcision - as we see in this example from 1Cor 7:19

notice how Christ upholds what "Moses said" in Mark 7 calling it "The WORD of GOD"

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


John 14:15 "IF you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments"


"Love ME and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6 -- from the TEN Commandments.

No wonder NT authors affirm the TEN Commandments as part of the moral law of God for the saints even in the NT as we see here
14 minutes ago #1



Heb 8:6-10 Christ's New Covenant and His TEN Commandments at Sinai
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a New Covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.


This is where we disagree. We are sinners made righteous by the blood of Jesus. Grace, grace, marvelous grace.

Rom 6
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered


"New Covenant" only made with the "house of Israel" according to Heb 8:6-10. AND so it is only for the saints, the saved of Romans 2.

And in that Covenant - "10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
"
 
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BobRyan

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Galatians chapter 3
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

That is the LAW from the standpoint of the lost.

By contrast we have -- the "saved"

10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
 
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bugkiller

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This is where we disagree. We are sinners made righteous by the blood of Jesus. Grace, grace, marvelous grace. Our righteousness is as filthy rags. Our challenge is to love others as Jesus loves us. All the ritual laws of the defunct covenant given only to Israel have no bearing on how Christians are to live. They are history and not the standard for Christians, love is our standard. We understand that yet we fail miserably just like Israel did under their covenant. Except for Grace we are eternally lost. I don't know about Messianics, but SDAs think they have to do certain things like Sabbath observance, tithing and not partaking of certain foods to gain eternal life. They will try to cover up that fact, but their prophet tells a different story.
Yeppers!!!!

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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That is the LAW from the standpoint of the lost.

By contrast we have -- the "saved"

10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
Nope!!!

bugkiller
 
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Sophrosyne

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Then why bother?

bugkiller
Because it is a facade that's why. Folks say it isn't about salvation because the rules say they can't say it but in reality their arguments are null and void if they don't attach keeping the 10 commandments with salvation. I think either they need to get rid of the rule and let them outright say it or enforce even implications of it here instead of allowing them to do everything short of outright saying you go to hell for not keeping the Sabbath etc.
 
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Bob S

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Because it is a facade that's why. Folks say it isn't about salvation because the rules say they can't say it but in reality their arguments are null and void if they don't attach keeping the 10 commandments with salvation. I think either they need to get rid of the rule and let them outright say it or enforce even implications of it here instead of allowing them to do everything short of outright saying you go to hell for not keeping the Sabbath etc.
In reality, through ellen white, they are bound to admit that we are going to Hell for not observing Sabbath. I have posted her statements here on the forum several times. According to Adventism ellen's writings are on an equal level with the Holy Scriptures. Her laws or her interpretation of scripture is vital for the flock to keep. Funny how all of them pick and choose, out of her writings, the ones they are willing to do. Also very funny is the fact that they tell us we must "keep" Sabbath , but they in turn desecrate it every week. I was such a hypocrite during the years I was an Adventist. Thank you God for finally giving me the strength and will to change my life. If you SDAs only knew what a Christian life is all about on the outside you wouldn't be here trying to convince us to come in to your convoluted (twisted) belief system. This is probably true concerning the Messianic belief system too if what I have been reading is truly what they hold fast.
 
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