The problem of evil

[Loudmouth]

My phrase - my definition of the word's usage.

That's not how languages work. We use the common usage, not personal definitions.

If something is common to many religions and many cultures, then it isn't biblical any more than it is from the Quran or from the Vedas.

If only that were the relevant post.

It is the relevant post.

It is post #541 where you misquoted my statement from post #538 (shown below). The misquote is underlined, and the thing "I've known" was the Golden Rule.

That has nothing to do with the 2 rules you laid out for the discussion of the Amalekites. Those are the rules I was referring to.

I could. Yet I can't feed the whole world.

God can't? Seem to remember a story about how God fed an entire nation of people with manna for 40 years or so. God couldn't feed just the children of a nation for half that time?

I'm still waiting for you to answer my question. I answered yours. Answer mine. How does your system balance pain like that?

Quite easy. You don't kill children for what their parents and grandparents do. You use government funds to place children in foster care where they receive food and shelter while the people who help tend to the children are compensated for their time.

I do. That's why a track record is important. Hitler's was rather poor, even before he took power.

If you were being consistent, you would claim that Hitler's track record was perfect because anything Hitler does is defined as perfect. Afterall, that is how you define God's track record.

Many in Germany knew that and resisted. Unfortunately they lost.

No one resisted the Hebrew people?

I don't think it does. But, again, who is this "we"? Who is it that uses this method to justify confining people who don't conform?

The we is humanity.

 

[bhsmte]

I posted too quickly. I was going to add that if you're going to take this position, you need to say: most people interpret scripture in a manner that aligns with their personal psychological needs.

Agree.

I would add though, those who are not christian, wouldnt have the same motivation to shoe horn an interpretation, to fit their personal needs, because they dont put the same emphasis on scripture in general.

 

[Loudmouth]

Well for one they were not facing nuclear fire. Our enemies are beginning to have nuclear weapons and the capabilities to launch them at us. This has raised fears all over the world...

That is entirely made up. If you went to a street corner and interviewed people on what they fear on a day to day basis, how many do you think would say "death by nuclear bomb"? One out of every 500 people?

Compare this to more ancient times when 50% of the country could be wiped out by a disease that can be cured with a simple prescription in modern times. Where has that happened in recent times? Compare this to a bad crop leading to widespread famine. When was the last time people in a Western country lost 30% of their population to famine?

I really don't think you have a firm grasp on the present or history.

And Countries have now the power to wage biological warfare. Which will happen.

Until it does happen, you can't make these claims.

 

[Resha Caner]

That's not how languages work. We use the common usage, not personal definitions.

It seems you clipped the part where I noted that the definition I use is from the dictionary, i.e. common.

Quite easy. You don't kill children for what their parents and grandparents do. You use government funds to place children in foster care where they receive food and shelter while the people who help tend to the children are compensated for their time.

Government funds? That sounds like a humorously uninformed and privileged American waving the magic wand to make the pain go away. The pain is there, so a decision must be made about how to spread the pain around. Are you saying that a weak king is supposed to take food from Israelites who hate the Amalekites and give it to Amalekite children?

So let's apply this modern viewpoint to a modern problem. "Don't kill children for what their parents and grandparents do." So, if a woman has sex and pregnancy results, the unborn child shouldn't be killed because of what the mother did. Right?

If you were being consistent, you would claim that Hitler's track record was perfect because anything Hitler does is defined as perfect. Afterall, that is how you define God's track record.

I don't define God's track record in that way.

The we is humanity.

You've not established the credibility to speak for humanity.

 

[Dave Ellis]

We are God's little Children.

If your child crawls out the front door and across the city...
the world happens. Lucky if they get down the front step
without bloodshed. Man chose to leave God's fellowship.
How many do you see flocking back to God?

If I had a child that was not yet capable of fending for himself or making informed decisions, then I am a negligent parent if I allow them to crawl out the front door and take off on their own.

Basically, in your example you're making god out to be a negligent parent, and blaming the kids for that fact.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Proverbs 3:1-2 - MY son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.

This is justice. Wickedness shorten the days of the wicked. And Righteousness add days, even years as gifts from God to them that keep my commandments.

For you I will give more....By Righteousness a man can save his soul when desolation comes. A righteous man cannot save his wife or son or daughter or father and mother...but his soul only if he ask for deliverance.

Ezekiel 14:20 - Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, [great desolation (last days tribulation) as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

Jeremiah said of our days...that God will bring to Zion one of a city two of a family. (out of Babylon)

dan

What's your point?

Quoting the bible to me would be roughly akin to me quoting Captain Kirk to you.

What are you trying to argue, and back it up with something substantiative.

 

[SkyWriting]

If I had a child that was not yet capable of fending for himself or making informed decisions, then I am a negligent parent if I allow them to crawl out the front door and take off on their own.
Basically, in your example you're making god out to be a negligent parent, and blaming the kids for that fact.

Sorry you can't handle analogies unless they are perfect.
But then they wouldn't be analogies.

 

[Locutus]

Watching the child starve because it no longer has parents to care for it would cause me emotional pain.

There are quite a few criminals who have proven themselves very intelligent and anecdotal empathy leaves one unable to assess what pain is actually being felt by those with whom you share no experience.

Is the child going to starve because the god has ordered the killing of its parents? Are you really going there?

To the second para, above: Exactly. Just because a person or entity CLAIMS to be good, and may do SOME good things, does not mean they can't also be a violent lunatic.

 

[Locutus]

That is private interpretation.

Could you define non-private interpretations, please?

 

[Dan Bert]

Normally, unbelievers, atheists change when they have a Near death experience and they experience life after death. Until then there is nothing we can do except to letting go their way sooner or later they will hit a wall. And then they will know even if it is mere seconds before they die. If not then the tunnel of darkness will wake them up.

dan

If I had a child that was not yet capable of fending for himself or making informed decisions, then I am a negligent parent if I allow them to crawl out the front door and take off on their own.

Basically, in your example you're making god out to be a negligent parent, and blaming the kids for that fact.

What's your point?

Quoting the bible to me would be roughly akin to me quoting Captain Kirk to you.

What are you trying to argue, and back it up with something substantiative.

 

[Dan Bert]

The point is you would not be the first atheist that I know who believed only when they are on their death bed. For the lucky few, the veil separating this world from the next begin to thin out as the time nears their departure is at hand and see on the other side. I hope God does the same for you. It lessens the shook.

Dan

 

[Dave Ellis]

Sorry you can't handle analogies unless they are perfect.
But then they wouldn't be analogies.

I'm not asking for a perfect analogy.

However, no matter what analogy you use (even a perfect one for your argument), my rebuttal still is valid. Adam and Eve while in the garden are described as ignorant and almost childlike. They don't even know the difference between good and evil, as per the story.

As such, god would have an obligation to look after them. If they were to mess up, some mild punishment would perhaps be appropriate (just like if your two year old was misbehaving), however damning them (and more unbelievably all of their offspring) to a life of struggle and possible eternal damnation for one slip up is going absurdly overboard. It would be akin to burning your two year old alive for an innocent mistake.

So I'm sorry, your argument just doesn't hold up. If the biblical story is accurate, god was incredibly unjust in it.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Normally, unbelievers, atheists change when they have a Near death experience and they experience life after death. Until then there is nothing we can do except to letting go their way sooner or later they will hit a wall. And then they will know even if it is mere seconds before they die. If not then the tunnel of darkness will wake them up.

dan

Nonsense, I haven't heard of anyone that this has happened to. Mainly because nobody has ever died, then been brought back to life. Near death does not mean death.

The thing that I do find to be curios however is when believers usually have a near death experience, it's almost always in line with the religion they happen to follow. Muslims who have near death experiences see Muhammad, Christians see Jesus, Hindus see Vishnu, etc. That would indicate (not surprisingly) that the hallucinations they are experiencing are generated by their own brains.

Relying on the hallucinations of an oxygen deprived brain on the verge of death to develop a theological position once you are healthy again is simply ridiculous. If you find that stuff convincing, that's your prerogative, however it's not convincing to anyone that actually demands a respectable standard of evidence.

 

[Dan Bert]

Truth is from the Spirit of truth. If all men drink from that same well they will not err. The water that Christ said to the Samaritan women if she drunk is would never thirst again ....is the Spirit of God. Jesus sent us another comforter...The Holy Ghost,,,it testifies to the truth and also teaches. As in the Da Vinci professor demonstrates in the beginning of the movie how symbols over the centuries have been changed and mean sometimes the opposite in our time. Words are symbols also and Satan change their meaning. That is why interpretation by men no matter how smart they are will err. Their wisdom is of the world and God calls their wisdom foolishness. And they in turn call God's wisdom foolishness. Those of you who follow after the Jews for interpretation of the Scriptures are going to make their mistakes...and those of you who follow after the Greeks for interpretation of the scriptures are going to make the mistakes of the Greeks did. Those of us who choose to check with God for our truth will not be deceived in these last days, like those who follow the scriptures according to the wisdom of man. The Spirit of truth is what prevent the gates of hell to prevail against us. And any Church that has the Spirit of truth as it cornerstone will never fall prey to snares and deceptions of Satan.

dan

Could you define non-private interpretations, please?

 

[Dave Ellis]

The point is you would not be the first atheist that I know who believed only when they are on their death bed. For the lucky few, the veil separating this world from the next begin to thin out as the time nears their departure is at hand and see on the other side. I hope God does the same for you. It lessens the shook.

Dan

How utterly arrogant.

What gall you have to assume that we all deep down believe in your mythology, and we'll only come around when we face death?

As for me, my experience is atheists have a much easier time accepting death for what it is, whereas religious people approach death with a great deal of fear.

I appreciate life, and try to live it the best I can. I do that with the knowledge that I only have a limited time to experience things, however that makes me appreciate my life all the much more. When I die, I view it as the end of a natural process. It sucks, and I don't want to die, but it will happen someday. I don't fear it.

Religious people on the other hand are often extremely fearful of death, most likely because of the stress the heaven/hell thing plays in their mind. What if they don't think they might have been good enough to go to heaven? When they die are they in for an eternity of torture? It's a horrible position to be in, and I'm disgusted by the Christian religion that pushes that kind of immoral garbage that has lead to so much pain and suffering in elderly people.

However, the very fact that you believe we're being disingenuous is amazingly arrogant on your part. Trust me, I think your beliefs are wrong. I view the bible and the Christian religion on par with Greek and Roman mythology. I'm as worried of going to hell as you are of Hades and crossing the river Styx after death.

 

[Dan Bert]

Just because you have never experience or seen what I have does not lessen my experiences. Nor does it make it untrue.

Nonsense, I haven't heard of anyone that this has happened to. Mainly because nobody has ever died, then been brought back to life. Near death does not mean death.

The thing that I do find to be curios however is when believers usually have a near death experience, it's almost always in line with the religion they happen to follow. Muslims who have near death experiences see Muhammad, Christians see Jesus, Hindus see Vishnu, etc. That would indicate (not surprisingly) that the hallucinations they are experiencing are generated by their own brains.

Relying on the hallucinations of an oxygen deprived brain on the verge of death to develop a theological position once you are healthy again is simply ridiculous. If you find that stuff convincing, that's your prerogative, however it's not convincing to anyone that actually demands a respectable standard of evidence.

How utterly arrogant.

What gall you have to assume that we all deep down believe in your mythology, and we'll only come around when we face death?

As for me, my experience is atheists have a much easier time accepting death for what it is, whereas religious people approach death with a great deal of fear.

I appreciate life, and try to live it the best I can. I do that with the knowledge that I only have a limited time to experience things, however that makes me appreciate my life all the much more. When I die, I view it as the end of a natural process. It sucks, and I don't want to die, but it will happen someday. I don't fear it.

Religious people on the other hand are often extremely fearful of death, most likely because of the stress the heaven/hell thing plays in their mind. What if they don't think they might have been good enough to go to heaven? When they die are they in for an eternity of torture? It's a horrible position to be in, and I'm disgusted by the Christian religion that pushes that kind of immoral garbage that has lead to so much pain and suffering in elderly people.

However, the very fact that you believe we're being disingenuous is amazingly arrogant on your part. Trust me, I think your beliefs are wrong. I view the bible and the Christian religion on par with Greek and Roman mythology. I'm as worried of going to hell as you are of Hades and crossing the river Styx after death.

 

[Dan Bert]

I agree it can appear as arrogance....and the gall is knowledge not belief. I have gone from the belief stage which is the Ego....to the knowledge stage. Mark ELLIS wrote an account of an Atheist NDE who actually went to hell. Needless to say he was a changed man when he came back. How I came across a writer by name of Mark Ellis is not a coincidence. He wrote about the NDE experience of Howard Storm.

dan

How utterly arrogant.

What gall you have to assume that we all deep down believe in your mythology, and we'll only come around when we face death?

As for me, my experience is atheists have a much easier time accepting death for what it is, whereas religious people approach death with a great deal of fear.

I appreciate life, and try to live it the best I can. I do that with the knowledge that I only have a limited time to experience things, however that makes me appreciate my life all the much more. When I die, I view it as the end of a natural process. It sucks, and I don't want to die, but it will happen someday. I don't fear it.

Religious people on the other hand are often extremely fearful of death, most likely because of the stress the heaven/hell thing plays in their mind. What if they don't think they might have been good enough to go to heaven? When they die are they in for an eternity of torture? It's a horrible position to be in, and I'm disgusted by the Christian religion that pushes that kind of immoral garbage that has lead to so much pain and suffering in elderly people.

However, the very fact that you believe we're being disingenuous is amazingly arrogant on your part. Trust me, I think your beliefs are wrong. I view the bible and the Christian religion on par with Greek and Roman mythology. I'm as worried of going to hell as you are of Hades and crossing the river Styx after death.

How utterly arrogant.

What gall you have to assume that we all deep down believe in your mythology, and we'll only come around when we face death?

As for me, my experience is atheists have a much easier time accepting death for what it is, whereas religious people approach death with a great deal of fear.

I appreciate life, and try to live it the best I can. I do that with the knowledge that I only have a limited time to experience things, however that makes me appreciate my life all the much more. When I die, I view it as the end of a natural process. It sucks, and I don't want to die, but it will happen someday. I don't fear it.

Religious people on the other hand are often extremely fearful of death, most likely because of the stress the heaven/hell thing plays in their mind. What if they don't think they might have been good enough to go to heaven? When they die are they in for an eternity of torture? It's a horrible position to be in, and I'm disgusted by the Christian religion that pushes that kind of immoral garbage that has lead to so much pain and suffering in elderly people.

However, the very fact that you believe we're being disingenuous is amazingly arrogant on your part. Trust me, I think your beliefs are wrong. I view the bible and the Christian religion on par with Greek and Roman mythology. I'm as worried of going to hell as you are of Hades and crossing the river Styx after death.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Just because you have never experience or seen what I have does not lessen my experiences. Nor does it make it untrue.

It doesn't make them true either.

Either way, you still haven't provided sufficient reason to warrant belief in them

 

[Dave Ellis]

I agree it can appear as arrogance....and the gall is knowledge not belief. I have gone from the belief stage which is the Ego....to the knowledge stage. Mark ELLIS wrote an account of an Atheist NDE who actually went to hell. Needless to say he was a changed man when he came back. How I came across a writer by name of Mark Ellis is not a coincidence. He wrote about the NDE experience of Howard Storm.

dan

It's also arrogant to claim knowledge when you have no evidence to support your claim.

Writing an account of something is not evidence of anything, much less proof. How does he know the person in question actually went to hell? How does he know hell is even a real place?

 

[quatona]

Sorry you can't handle analogies unless they are perfect.
But then they wouldn't be analogies.

Personally, I can´t handle analogies that aren´t analogous in the crucial aspect.