Why The Trinity is a False Teaching - Summarized Doctrinal Reasons

[Der Alte]

Well, his son certainly favored the Arians and dumped the Nicene Creed out the window.

Can't argue with that.

 

[Der Alte]

Listen the Holy Spirit IS the spirit of God so essentially He IS God but unlike Jesus He is not His own person but instead He's the Spirit of God reaching out to us.

Here are a few scripture to consider supporting the personhood of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, has a distinct will, a distinct mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 15:26).
.....Some false teaching religions like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., claim e.g. that the Holy Spirit is nothing but an impersonal force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is totally false. If the Holy Spirit was merely an impersonal force or power, He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11), a self, (Jn 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).
.....There are, at least, seventy two (72) personal characteristics or attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are, within the Trinity.

Names of the Spirit
1. God -Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27, Heb 3:7-11, Heb 10:15-17
2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14
Attributes of (9)
7. Eternal -Heb. 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalm 139:710
10. Distinct Will from the father and the son– 1 Cor. 12:11
11. Loves - Rom. 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts 8:29; Acts 13:2
13. Distinct Mind from the father and the son – Rom 8:27
14. Distinct Self from the father and the son – John 16:13
15. Alive – John 14:17
Symbols of (3)
16. Dove - Mat 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts 2:3
Sins Against (6)
19. Blasphemy - Mat 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
21. Insult - Heb 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts 5:3
23. Grieved - Eph 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thes 5:19
Power in Christ's Life (6)
25. Conceived of - Mat 1:18-20
26. Baptism - Mat 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Rom 8:11
The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)
1 Access to God - Eph 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Rom. 8:15-16; Gal 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Pet 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:32-34; 1 Cor 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; Acts 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thes 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:2
9 Comforts - Act 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Cor 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Gen 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thes 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Phil 2:1
17 Fills - Acts 2:4; Acts 4:29-31; Acts 5:18-20; Acts 9:17
18 Forbids action - Acts 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Cor. 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Rom 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Rom 8:9-14; Gal 4:6
24 Inspires prayer - Eph 6:18; Jude 20
25 Intercedes -Rom 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Cor 2:1,14; Eph 1:17
27 Leads - Rom 8:14
28 Liberates - Rom 8:2
29 Molds Character - Gal 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Gal 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Rom 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luk 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Rom. 15:16
35 Seals - Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:30
36 Sends - Acts 13:4
37 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
38 Strengthens - Eph 3:16; Acts 1:8; 2:4; 1 Cor 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Rom. 8:2-4; Gal 4:6
41 Warns – Acts 20:23
42 Worship helper - Phi 3:3
[91]​

Sources Consulted:
CARM.org

DTL.org/Trinity

 

[Hoghead1]

Listen the Holy Spirit IS the spirit of God so essentially He IS God but unlike Jesus He is not His own person but instead He's the Spirit of God reaching out to us.

OK, so you are saying the Spirit is just an impersonal force or energy, which does in fact depersonalize it.

 

[Hoghead1]

Here are a few scripture to consider supporting the personhood of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, has a distinct will, a distinct mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 15:26).
.....Some false teaching religions like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., claim e.g. that the Holy Spirit is nothing but an impersonal force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is totally false. If the Holy Spirit was merely an impersonal force or power, He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11), a self, (Jn 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).
.....There are, at least, seventy two (72) personal characteristics or attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are, within the Trinity.

Names of the Spirit
1. God -Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27, Heb 3:7-11, Heb 10:15-17
2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14
Attributes of (9)
7. Eternal -Heb. 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalm 139:710
10. Distinct Will from the father and the son– 1 Cor. 12:11
11. Loves - Rom. 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts 8:29; Acts 13:2
13. Distinct Mind from the father and the son – Rom 8:27
14. Distinct Self from the father and the son – John 16:13
15. Alive – John 14:17
Symbols of (3)
16. Dove - Mat 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts 2:3
Sins Against (6)
19. Blasphemy - Mat 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
21. Insult - Heb 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts 5:3
23. Grieved - Eph 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thes 5:19
Power in Christ's Life (6)
25. Conceived of - Mat 1:18-20
26. Baptism - Mat 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Rom 8:11
The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)
1 Access to God - Eph 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Rom. 8:15-16; Gal 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Pet 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:32-34; 1 Cor 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; Acts 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thes 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:2
9 Comforts - Act 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Cor 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Gen 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thes 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Phil 2:1
17 Fills - Acts 2:4; Acts 4:29-31; Acts 5:18-20; Acts 9:17
18 Forbids action - Acts 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Cor. 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Rom 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Rom 8:9-14; Gal 4:6
24 Inspires prayer - Eph 6:18; Jude 20
25 Intercedes -Rom 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Cor 2:1,14; Eph 1:17
27 Leads - Rom 8:14
28 Liberates - Rom 8:2
29 Molds Character - Gal 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Gal 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Rom 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luk 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Rom. 15:16
35 Seals - Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:30
36 Sends - Acts 13:4
37 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
38 Strengthens - Eph 3:16; Acts 1:8; 2:4; 1 Cor 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Rom. 8:2-4; Gal 4:6
41 Warns – Acts 20:23
42 Worship helper - Phi 3:3
[91]​

Sources Consulted:
CARM.org

DTL.org/Trinity

OK, so what I am trying to figure out is how you are avoiding tritheism. You present the Trinity as three separate, unique personalities. Well, that is three gods. No question about it. So where is the one Godin your reckoning?

 

[jerry kelso]

Not so...Hebrews only attempts to give evidence for Jesus being "the high priest in the order of Mechizedeck," and being also "over the angels," as well as over all men.

Kind of odd wording for claiming he is God verdad? Why say GOD is over men or angels or even a "high priest" at all?
This is a given. Just say Jesus is God and all other lesser categories are covered, amen?

Heb
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

This was originally probably to SOLOMON sir, and serves as a double-fulfillment prophesy. How is SOLOMON God sir?
No, the Hebrew wording is ELOHIM, sir, said ten percent of the time for warlords, prophets, patriarchs (Ex 7 for Moses)
resurrected saints, the heavenly assembly. And kings.



It is, but believers are included in the mix. And this not OF God's INHERENT ontology. "I and the Father are one," or HEN the neuter declensioned "one" is a unity of the Holy Spirit ALSO said of believers in Jn 17 "that they may be HEN as we are."



You are a little confused. I think you mean God and the Son are not created. Prophets did not do this but proclaimed it.

However, to be begotten MEANT that Jesus was created by his God, Jn 1:14. God SPOKE forth Jesus and this the Word speaking, "Jesus." To be MADE first just under the angels and then GLORIFIED over them is the same kind of concept.
The Word is pre-existent in the one Jewish sense. Many things eternal were considered PLANNED before the Foundation of the World, and the Messiah included. Jesus even knew in Jn 17 that his GLORY potentiated was still to be had, and yet WAS POSSESSED when God determined it to be, before the Foundation of the World.

But Jesus did not "share glory" in the sense of hippies cavorting in heaven with the Father. He was not alive until the Holy Spirit MADE him alive in Mary's womb.



Now I know ye are quite confused. YHWH was named "the Father" when Jesus said and made primal his new name, although not really new. YHWH was the known name of God, just not pronouncable anymore in thought, text or speech. Too sacred to say out loud, sir.



Blase and pedantry. Genesis is known by rabbinical commentary forever as God speaking to other ones in heaven, not HIS other SELVES, sir. And the almost 11,000 SINGULAR verbs and pronouns attentant to YHWH Elohim in verse prove the plural etymology of "elohim" was not the dominant meaning in any verse. Not two or more persons in fact. ONE person with many attributes, characteristics, magnificent powers etc.

Basic Hebrew will tell you this, but no...trinitarians will argue these dummy tings to the end of tine, sir.



Buuut. He told you His DEFINITIVE name is YHWH or..."YHWH Elohim." Sir. ALLLL Jews knew this, and this is WHY this name was considered TOO SACRED to say out loud.



Compound unity is NOT implied in EITHER the Shema OR the First Command of the Ten, sir. A NUMERICAL ONE is the plain and simple meaning of "echad." And ALL CONTEXT of the OT has "no other one can be God." This is unequivocal and true.
This is absolutely true. To say otherwise is to REJECT the Abrahamic Monotheism of ALLL Jews who were faithful, sir.



Trinity is illogical, impossible and dummy theology. It makes NO SENSE from the git-go. When the Athanasian Creed MADE it "orthodox" this Creed states two impossible things to be true side-by-side. Three ARE God, but these three are NOT three Gods.

How ARE Three who ARE God not in turn three Gods? No explanation, no inspiration, no revelation and no how no way.

[/QUOTE]

nothead,

1. The order of Melchizadek was for the purpose of showing Christ priesthood as being eternal.
2. Taken the nature of man or angels? Christ took on the nature of man and not angels which shows he was neither. So your point about being over the angels is not scriptural to the wording of taken on the nature. It is not a given and this is your humanistic reasoning.
3. Probably written about Solomon is guessing.
Jesus rebuked Peter in Matthew 16:22-23; and in verse 23 where Jesus said, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou, art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
This is a double reference and we know Peter is not Satan. So your double fulfillment about Solomon even though you are not sure if it was written about Solomon is off base and is not scriptural or correct about double fulfillments.
4. Elohim is used in many more passages including Genesis 1:26 than passages talking about heathens. You are trying to show proof by showing that Elohim can be applied to heathens which would have no bearing or do away with the passages on the Elohim of God. That is ridiculous thinking and even if that is true is irrelvant to the context of the Godhead.
5. It is about believers as I showed. This doesn't mean God cannot be unified in himself and it doesn't mean that he cannot be unified with the other two members of the Godhead.
6. I believe it is inherent ontology because I believe in the three in one which the bible talks about and is given in the formula of Matthew 28:19 and shown that they are separate entities with different responsibilities. The Father in heaven was talking to the Son on earth. Were they the same individual? It depends on what your definitions and context which I am not sure you have distinctively yet. Since the bible shows they are separate entities with different responsibilities of their own that act separate apart from each other but yet are always in harmony and unity that cannot be broken your neuter declensioned is not really correct. Unity is more than number one concerning individuals and at the same time they are one in unity in harmony.
7. One could say the Father and Son were created according to the plan. Physically they were not created because they have always been, always is and always will be completely eternal.
8. Jesus was begotten of the Father before the foundation of the world prophetically and then physically when Christ was born.
However, Jesus was the God men and he was not created physically or otherwise by the Father because he was conceived when the Holy Ghost would come upon him and the power of the Highest would overshadow Christ. The last part of Luke 1:35 says therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. God is holy, Jesus is holy and the Holy Spirit is holy. Being begotten is why he is called the Son and the Father which is relationship of unity. Because Christ was the God-man is why they have these offices and the subordination that Christadelphians support doesn't violate compound unity.
Once again it goes back to definitions and context to the scriptures to understand being created and begotten. This is why I believer your position is confused.
9. Jesus said they shared glory before the foundation of the world in John 17. Let the angels worship him which was referring to Jesus. If the father is the only God why would he share his glory with worship and the fact that noone can be saved by any name or person's blood except for Jesus. Once again you need to understand proper usage and meaning of compound unity instead of inferiorism.
10. You need to study the kenosis of Christ. You misunderstand the relationship of the father and son and why it is worded in the new testament the way that it is. This misunderstanding leads to subordination and inferiorism in the Godhead. This is not a scriptural.
11. God the father is not known as the Father in fruition in the old testament and Christ was not known as the Son in the old testament. The only passages have to do with the prophecies of the Messiah.
God means deity or divinity. They can be used of the false Gods as well. The number of persons can be understood in the meaning of true deity.
Godhead means that which is divine. Colossians 2:9: For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily or in human flesh. It is used of all three persons in the deity in Romans 1:20: For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead: so they are without excuse.
12. The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit were all called God and Lord and Jehovah.
13. Yahweh named the Father? Jehoshua is a type of Christ which was the salvation of the Jews and of all men being able to forgive sins. Yahweh was not the father literally in the old testament for he did not really become the Father literally until his begotten son at the time of the birth of Christ.
14. It is not bias and your assessment about the number of singular Elohim doesn't cancel out the pluralism of the Godhead.
Deuteronomy 6:4-6 one Lord Malachi 2:10 is one God and is echad, to unify, collect, be united in one, one in number. I have already explained the unity of number and harmony. So your not the main point between singular and plural is wrong and null and void. You are trying to be one sided in your definition and not harmonize with the scriptures of plural Elohim which is many scriptures and not just one.
15. There are new testament jews that will tell you of the trinity.
16. Deuteronomy 6:4, the shema is; Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord. All three are called throughout God and Lord in the scriptures. Scriptures show that the Father if you will was the predominant speaker in the old testament and in the gospels was the Son and now it is the Holy Spirit. Your assessment is not consistent with the scriptures.
17. Actually, there are not three Gods because they are all one in harmony that has never, is not now and can never and will never be broken. That is the impossibility.
18. That is the proper scriptural explanation, inspiration of unity with all people with the one Godhead. The scriptures reveal the way and the truth and the life of Christ and the Father who sent his Son and the Holy Spirit who the Son sent. It is completely logical in the proper context.
What you should do is explain what your exact position of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit and if they are all divine or not divine and why and why you think your position is logical. Thanks Jerry Kelso

 

[Teslafied]

Here are a few scripture to consider supporting the personhood of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, has a distinct will, a distinct mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 15:26).
.....Some false teaching religions like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., claim e.g. that the Holy Spirit is nothing but an impersonal force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is totally false. If the Holy Spirit was merely an impersonal force or power, He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11), a self, (Jn 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).
.....There are, at least, seventy two (72) personal characteristics or attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are, within the Trinity.

Names of the Spirit
1. God -Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27, Heb 3:7-11, Heb 10:15-17
2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14
Attributes of (9)
7. Eternal -Heb. 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalm 139:710
10. Distinct Will from the father and the son– 1 Cor. 12:11
11. Loves - Rom. 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts 8:29; Acts 13:2
13. Distinct Mind from the father and the son – Rom 8:27
14. Distinct Self from the father and the son – John 16:13
15. Alive – John 14:17
Symbols of (3)
16. Dove - Mat 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts 2:3
Sins Against (6)
19. Blasphemy - Mat 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
21. Insult - Heb 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts 5:3
23. Grieved - Eph 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thes 5:19
Power in Christ's Life (6)
25. Conceived of - Mat 1:18-20
26. Baptism - Mat 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Rom 8:11
The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)
1 Access to God - Eph 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Rom. 8:15-16; Gal 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Pet 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:32-34; 1 Cor 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; Acts 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thes 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:2
9 Comforts - Act 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Cor 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Gen 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thes 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Phil 2:1
17 Fills - Acts 2:4; Acts 4:29-31; Acts 5:18-20; Acts 9:17
18 Forbids action - Acts 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Cor. 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Rom 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Rom 8:9-14; Gal 4:6
24 Inspires prayer - Eph 6:18; Jude 20
25 Intercedes -Rom 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Cor 2:1,14; Eph 1:17
27 Leads - Rom 8:14
28 Liberates - Rom 8:2
29 Molds Character - Gal 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Gal 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Rom 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luk 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Rom. 15:16
35 Seals - Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:30
36 Sends - Acts 13:4
37 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
38 Strengthens - Eph 3:16; Acts 1:8; 2:4; 1 Cor 2:4
39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Rom. 8:2-4; Gal 4:6
41 Warns – Acts 20:23
42 Worship helper - Phi 3:3
[91]​

Sources Consulted:
CARM.org

DTL.org/Trinity

Thank you and while I will be checking this out, I have read the Bible and from my understanding the Holy Spirit is God the Fathers Spirit emanating to man. So I don't deny He can feel or be grieved, what I deny is Him being a separate entity.

 

[Hoghead1]

Thank you and while I will be checking this out, I have read the Bible and from my understanding the Holy Spirit is God the Fathers Spirit emanating to man. So I don't deny He can feel or be grieved, what I deny is Him being a separate entity.

So the Holy Spirit is a personality, right?

 

[Teslafied]

So the Holy Spirit is a personality, right?

I'm not a theologian, and I'm not God, and I don't claim to be perfect, but from what I gather the Holy Spirit is God the Fathers way of reaching out to humanity. I hate to use mumbo jumbo terms, I also hate to outright make statements when I could be wrong... All I know is what the good book says: we have a Father, a Son, and the Holy Spirit. Now how He's perceived is up to each person yet He IS important the Bible says no man can come to the Father unless they are drawn by the Holy Spirit.

So I don't want to argue or debate further on this matter, it seems like you don't understand how I feel or even what I'm trying to say and quite frankly I'm tired of the accusations and the Heresy hunts.

 

[Hoghead1]

I'm not a theologian, and I'm not God, and I don't claim to be perfect, but from what I gather the Holy Spirit is God the Fathers way of reaching out to humanity. I hate to use mumbo jumbo terms, I also hate to outright make statements when I could be wrong... All I know is what the good book says: we have a Father, a Son, and the Holy Spirit. Now how He's perceived is up to each person yet He IS important the Bible says no man can come to the Father unless they are drawn by the Holy Spirit.

So I don't want to argue or debate further on this matter, it seems like you don't understand how I feel or even what I'm trying to say and quite frankly I'm tired of the accusations and the Heresy hunts.

No, I wouldn't pretend to know how you feel; I don't know you at all.

 

[Imagican]

I choose to believe He begat His Son in heaven and then on Earth.

Not sure I can agree with this one.

Firstborn of every creature. The 'beginning of the creation of God'. These indicate that Christ did indeed have a 'beginning' and was 'begotten' previous to being instrumental in 'creation' itself.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

I'm confused as to how this thread is allowed yet I make one post about nontrinitarianism and get a warning. And get told to make a thread in another forum instead. Either we can talk about the trinity here or we cant. I can see why there would be inconsistency because some people get offended when you disagree with their deeply held view and most people aren't flexible in their theology. By that I mean they aren't open to ideas that are unorthodox. Yet even among those who believe in orthodoxy there is serious disagreement.

 

[Teslafied]

I'm confused as to how this thread is allowed yet I make one post about nontrinitarianism and get a warning. And get told to make a thread in another forum instead. Either we can talk about the trinity here or we cant. I can see why there would be inconsistency because some people get offended when you disagree with their deeply held view and most people aren't flexible in their theology. By that I mean they aren't open to ideas that are unorthodox. Yet even among those who believe in orthodoxy there is serious disagreement.

I agree , I think the key to it all is to be able to talk about the nature of God as long as we are not purposefully blasphemous. At the end of the day we are all human and no matter what we think or how hard we try none of us can completely fathom who God is. All we know is God is good and He's worthy to be worshipped.

 

[Radagast]

I'm confused as to how this thread is allowed

Ditto. It seems to be clearly in breach of the rules for this subforum, which say:

"Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Christianity & World Religion forum and the Debate Non-Christian Religions forum. The non-Nicene, unorthodox Christian topics which may discussed in this forum include (but are not limited to):

• Universalism
• Open Theism
• Full Preterism
• Annihilationism
• Gnosticism

Faith groups that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF. Posts that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation are considered non-Christian theology and are not allowed in 'Christians Only' forums."

 

[Der Alte]

OK, so what I am trying to figure out is how you are avoiding tritheism. You present the Trinity as three separate, unique personalities. Well, that is three gods. No question about it. So where is the one Godin your reckoning?

God said "Hear O Israel the Lord your God is one." Jesus said "Hear O Israel the Lord your God is one." Yet Jesus and the Holy Spirit are called or referred to as God in the NT. If God is able to create the entire world and everything in it, I'm confident He can take care of anything.

 

[Hoghead1]

God said "Hear O Israel the Lord your God is one." Jesus said "Hear O Israel the Lord your God is one." Yet Jesus and the Holy Spirit are called or referred to as God in the NT. If God is able to create the entire world and everything in it, I'm confident He can take care of anything.

That does not even begin to answer my question.

 

[Der Alte]

That does not even begin to answer my question.

I'm not here to play 20 questions, I suspect there is nothing I could say which would answer your question to your satisfaction. About 14 years ago I had a close relative who was "oneness Jesus only," since I worked for DOD in the far east and he was in the states we discussed our differences for 2-3 months by mail. At one point he went to a Christian book store looking for "evidence" to throw at me. He picked up a book read a page or two, went on shopping, came back and read a few more pages, did this a couple of times, left, came back the next day read a little more, and bought the book. After he read it through twice he wrote me and said "You were right and I was wrong." So I ordered the book. The title of the book is The Trinity, Issues and Evidence by Robert Morey. He cites 479 verses of scripture, 40 Apocrypha and Apocalyptic books, 12 dead sea scrolls and 10 Talmudic texts.

 

[Hoghead1]

I'm not here to play 20 questions, I suspect there is nothing I could say which would answer your question to your satisfaction. About 14 years ago I had a close relative who was "oneness Jesus only," since I worked for DOD in the far east and he was in the states we discussed our differences for 2-3 months by mail. At one point he went to a Christian book store looking for "evidence" to throw at me. He picked up a book read a page or two, went on shopping, came back and read a few more pages, did this a couple of times, left, came back the next day read a little more, and bought the book. After he read it through twice he wrote me and said "You were right and I was wrong." So I ordered the book. The title of the book is The Trinity, Issues and Evidence by Robert Morey. He cites 479 verses of scripture, 40 Apocrypha and Apocalyptic books, 12 dead sea scrolls and 10 Talmudic texts.

Look, I simply asked you a very basic question: Do you view the trinity as three personalities? If so, how is this different than tritheism? Now, those are solid questions many have asked and many others should and many will ask.

 

[Der Alte]

Look, I simply asked you a very basic question: Do you view the trinity as three personalities? If so, how is this different than tritheism? Now, those are solid questions many have asked and many others should and many will ask.

I answered your question. That you did not like my answer is not my problem. There is one God. The Father is God but He is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is God but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but He is not the Son or the Father. There is one God. The minutiae I leave to God.

 

[Hoghead1]

I answered your question. That you did not like my answer is not my problem. There is one God. The Father is God but He is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is God but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but He is not the Son or the Father. There is one God. The minutiae I leave to God.

I asked you if you consider each member of the Trinity to be a separate, unique personality, however. That ought to be an easy-enough question for you to answer.

 

[Der Alte]

I asked you if you consider each member of the Trinity to be a separate, unique personality, however. That ought to be an easy-enough question for you to answer.

I do not intend to get bogged down in a detailed discussion about the words "person,""personality" etc. What is your opinion of the Trinity? My answer in a nutshell, I think I stated this before. There is one God. The Father is God but He is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is God but He is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God but He is not the Son or the Father. There is one God.