What does it take to have salvation?

[JLB777]

Christianities requirement for a salvation package is the image of a Judgmental God standing ready to send His own creation to Hell as well as a God that is separate and apart from life and all there is. I reject both views. When our body dies, it dies and goes back to the elements, which is a physical aspect of God. Than there's our Souls, the spiritual aspect of our being. Our Soul is an activity of God. And just as a bubble goes back into the Ocean when popped, our soul is absorbed back into the essence of God when our body dies. That's how I see things.

Life after your body dies.

19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”

 

[AllanV]

And this is why I consider "book religions" that elevate a set of documents to quasi-divine status to be deficient.
Even if there was a divine beings, as the theists insist, choosing the written word as its vector of communicating with us would be the least efficient and most potentially misleading way of communication imaginable - as evidenced by the fracturing of major religions into warring (or at the very least doctrinally differing) sects and the complexities of exegesis required to support specific theological stances.

There was a king Hezekiah who destroyed the artifacts from the time of Moses because they were being idolized as Holy objects.
The Bible is called Holy and perhaps the attention it draws is to the exclusion of something more real.

 

[Fizzywig]

This is something of a default position after a reset button is pushed.

Hi Allan, it does not have to be seen like that. Simple trust is childlike, much as Jesus advocated. I am simply saying that it can be found/given as gift, in infinite ways.

 

[AllanV]

Hi Allan, it does not have to be seen like that. Simple trust is childlike, much as Jesus advocated. I am simply saying that it can be found/given as gift, in infinite ways.

The kingdom of God is entered by those who are child like but this does not mean we act like children when interacting with rebellious, stubborn adults. There is only one path one way into the Kingdom of God.

 

[AllanV]

I don't understand how anything we do from that place of Love could ever be a sacrifice, especially when it is God whom we are Loving in what we do.

And being pleasing to God, I believe, has more to do as a way for us to grow into a more fully human, Human Being than anything else.

Just a couple of comments that bubbled up as I read your post.

An individuals body is to be presented as a living sacrifice. God's will is to fill the body up from the inside and the gift is then applied to edify and uplift. The nature and mind of Jesus is acceptable and must be found and God energizes the Love in it.
Any love a person thinks they have is conditional and will be directed towards the ones closest to themselves first.

 

[Fizzywig]

The kingdom of God is entered by those who are child like but this does not mean we act like children when interacting with rebellious, stubborn adults. There is only one path one way into the Kingdom of God.

Hi again Allan,

Where are the rebellious, stubborn adults around here? How does/did that arise?

As far as the one way is concerned, as I have said elsewhere on another post ( I forget where) there is the One Way of Christ and there is the "only way" beloved of the "true" Christians. I am seeking to express the One Way, known and given in infinite ways.

Thanks

 

[AllanV]

Hi again Allan,

Where are the rebellious, stubborn adults around here? How does/did that arise?

As far as the one way is concerned, as I have said elsewhere on another post ( I forget where) there is the One Way of Christ and there is the "only way" beloved of the "true" Christians. I am seeking to express the One Way, known and given in infinite ways.

Thanks

Understanding this is difficult and perhaps it needs expanding (quote)"I am seeking to express the One Way, known and given in infinite ways."

There needs to be care taken when interacting with others. Christ means anointed one or anointing and sometimes the scripture is misinterpreted. When it relates to taking on Christ it is the anointing and the true depth is lost as to the actual meaning. There is something actively working within the mind to block, and to stop this being taken up.

The prophet Samuel said
1 Samuel 15:23(KJV) 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

This says something about all mankind because we all are genetically of the same race and rebellious.
What is witchcraft but an ability to get into the minds of others and even deeper therefore all humans interact in this way.

How does it work? It is actually obvious in all observable communications between people's personalities where their hard heart and mind form the emphasis on words and direct them. This is more obvious in tense situations and an impression of the person can be placed in the mind and remembered for some time. This can cause good and bad dreams and provokes some into responding the way that is seen in all human behavior.
Usually it is just remembering a sense of the personality of a friend and a good time or event from the past. There is a general bonding with mortal biological humans in the mind and heart that maintains a general hardness within.

This mental bonding needs to be severed and the scriptures explain how. It is not about being nasty to others but if a person does purify their self and the heart and mind is acceptable to God in the nature of Jesus then some will not like it, including Christians.
When the angels go forth to gather up from the four corners they will not be gathering up individuals who are going to bring issues with them.

Stubbornness is more about making idols of opinions and holding on to them in the mind. These also block the change in the heart and mind that God is producing by his Spirit.
Some say it is a sovereign act of God and we are under grace, nothing needs to be done, but a person must believe and this goes very deep and is not just a matter of saying a few words. The rebellious mind will inhibit a full belief because it is full of its own strength and personality with an impurity that is generally attached to a biological human.

The self is purified by following scriptures exactly.

2 Corinthians 10:5 (KJV)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Romans 12:2“And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”

If a person has the Holy Spirit, try doing this for three weeks while fasting and the mind changes with the belief to be complete enough to expose the demons as mind fixtures in own personal makeup. When fixtures are expelled the heart and spirit can then be broken deeply enough to find the divine nature. The nature of Jesus covers with His Love and God fully indwells with his Spirit.

The new nature is deeply gentle and full of Love and cannot be comprehended in the natural mind. There needs to be a complete transformation on the inside and God will do it by His Spirit.
The change in the mind is lead by being obedient to the Spirit and occurs day by day during a fast as the thoughts are directed only toward scripture. The anointing, that is being in Christ, is very strong in its gentleness and does not bond in the mind with the self willed rebellious.

 

[Fizzywig]

Understanding this is difficult and perhaps it needs expanding (quote)"I am seeking to express the One Way, known and given in infinite ways."

There needs to be care taken when interacting with others. Christ means anointed one or anointing and sometimes the scripture is misinterpreted. When it relates to taking on Christ it is the anointing and the true depth is lost as to the actual meaning. There is something actively working within the mind to block, and to stop this being taken up.

The prophet Samuel said
1 Samuel 15:23(KJV) 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

This says something about all mankind because we all are genetically of the same race and rebellious.
What is witchcraft but an ability to get into the minds of others and even deeper therefore all humans interact in this way.

How does it work? It is actually obvious in all observable communications between people's personalities where their hard heart and mind form the emphasis on words and direct them. This is more obvious in tense situations and an impression of the person can be placed in the mind and remembered for some time. This can cause good and bad dreams and provokes some into responding the way that is seen in all human behavior.
Usually it is just remembering a sense of the personality of a friend and a good time or event from the past. There is a general bonding with mortal biological humans in the mind and heart that maintains a general hardness within.

This mental bonding needs to be severed and the scriptures explain how. It is not about being nasty to others but if a person does purify their self and the heart and mind is acceptable to God in the nature of Jesus then some will not like it, including Christians.
When the angels go forth to gather up from the four corners they will not be gathering up individuals who are going to bring issues with them.

Stubbornness is more about making idols of opinions and holding on to them in the mind. These also block the change in the heart and mind that God is producing by his Spirit.
Some say it is a sovereign act of God and we are under grace, nothing needs to be done, but a person must believe and this goes very deep and is not just a matter of saying a few words. The rebellious mind will inhibit a full belief because it is full of its own strength and personality with an impurity that is generally attached to a biological human.

The self is purified by following scriptures exactly.

2 Corinthians 10:5 (KJV)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Romans 12:2“And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”

If a person has the Holy Spirit, try doing this for three weeks while fasting and the mind changes with the belief to be complete enough to expose the demons as mind fixtures in own personal makeup. When fixtures are expelled the heart and spirit can then be broken deeply enough to find the divine nature. The nature of Jesus covers with His Love and God fully indwells with his Spirit.

The new nature is deeply gentle and full of Love and cannot be comprehended in the natural mind. There needs to be a complete transformation on the inside and God will do it by His Spirit.
The change in the mind is lead by being obedient to the Spirit and occurs day by day during a fast as the thoughts are directed only toward scripture. The anointing, that is being in Christ, is very strong in its gentleness and does not bond in the mind with the self willed rebellious.

Allan, thank you for your in-depth understanding of the mechanics of "salvation" and, according to you, the way of the Christian.

The point I am seeking to make is that such can be seen as a template that can in fact be described, understood and experienced in infinite ways.

Please don't take my word for it. Pure Land Buddhism has its own buzz words to encompass just the same process, words such as bonno, jiriki, tariki, hi and ko, hakarai, edo etc etc. You can look then up if you want a link.

The proof of such infinite ways can be found by simply opening our eyes to the world around us and the world and its people throughout history, where the loving and compassionate can be seen and found in all Faiths and sometimes of none. Reality-as-is (God) is freedom itself, love itself, and need not be restricted to any one persons grasp and explication of any one book.

Thank you
Derek

 

[fatboys]

Allan, thank you for your in-depth understanding of the mechanics of "salvation" and, according to you, the way of the Christian.

The point I am seeking to make is that such can be seen as a template that can in fact be described, understood and experienced in infinite ways.

Please don't take my word for it. Pure Land Buddhism has its own buzz words to encompass just the same process, words such as bonno, jiriki, tariki, hi and ko, hakarai, edo etc etc. You can look then up if you want a link.

The proof of such infinite ways can be found by simply opening our eyes to the world around us and the world and its people throughout history, where the loving and compassionate can be seen and found in all Faiths and sometimes of none. Reality-as-is (God) is freedom itself, love itself, and need not be restricted to any one persons grasp and explication of any one book.

Thank you
Derek

At the time of Adam the gospel was taught. Truths were understood and lived. As time went by people left to surrounding areas to live. Human events such as wars earth quakes famine many times left men to their own devices. Because of this truth from parts of the gospel can be found in all religions.

 

[Fizzywig]

At the time of Adam the gospel was taught. Truths were understood and lived. As time went by people left to surrounding areas to live. Human events such as wars earth quakes famine many times left men to their own devices. Because of this truth from parts of the gospel can be found in all religions.

Sorry fatboy, I am unable to relate to your post. I deal in such as homo erectus, neanderthal man etc etc, to whom no gospel was taught. I have seen no evidence that "truths" (of the gospel) were understood and lived some time in the distant past and that we have since "fallen" from them. While I appreciate this leaves such Biblical verses as "as in Adam all men die, so in Christ shall all be made alive" problematic, I am happy to leave such to Christian Apologetics which is honed in finding the facts to support preconceived conclusions.

 

[AllanV]

Allan, thank you for your in-depth understanding of the mechanics of "salvation" and, according to you, the way of the Christian.

The point I am seeking to make is that such can be seen as a template that can in fact be described, understood and experienced in infinite ways.

Please don't take my word for it. Pure Land Buddhism has its own buzz words to encompass just the same process, words such as bonno, jiriki, tariki, hi and ko, hakarai, edo etc etc. You can look then up if you want a link.

The proof of such infinite ways can be found by simply opening our eyes to the world around us and the world and its people throughout history, where the loving and compassionate can be seen and found in all Faiths and sometimes of none. Reality-as-is (God) is freedom itself, love itself, and need not be restricted to any one persons grasp and explication of any one book.

Thank you
Derek

In the first instance the Bible had never been read but while living on a purchased rural property at 26 my mind was opened up to knowing God. A dream from the night before was remembered and reflected on while wood working in a small shed.

My body was energized strongly and with increasing intensity my mind was drawn deeper and beyond where usual thoughts come from. The effect was weakening, with a partial collapse and there was difficulty breathing.
The mind was opened up to the pattern of mind of an immortal with all its knowledge as a comparison and how my mind did not measure up. The effect on me was very powerful but gentle and full of Love and it almost seemed as though I could be taken from where I stood. There was an almost complete release from the biological form.

It is as though everything seen is a mist with a covering of light. God manifests everything seen instantly. A foundation is laid out with spirals, concentric circles, gradients and then everything seen appears. God is forever the same but manifests a universe as seen.

God is an observer just beyond and deeper than the mind that is usually though from. God knows each person by the way they are unable to measure up and this is where sin is hatched.
God is Spirit and is the binding energy in the atom and the life in the cell. We live and move and have our being in God.

A concept was given with the immortal mind that there is an effect on and around the earth that carries the power of the will and humans are able to manifest objectives into their lives. The main one is final death but others are easily observed. The human is absorbed in the biology of the planet and mental attributes are predatory where a general hardness is required. Therefore the self belief of an individual that is developed from a predatory biological perspective is empowered by the will. This will is similar to God's Will that creates but there is an impossible barrier within the mind that produces a separation.

The earth decays and there is oxidizing and this is taken within the body at the cellular level. This is why today, antioxidants in the diet are understood to lessen aging.
The barrier to knowing God in the mind is in all human interaction where a hardened mental bonding occurs. There is a separation form God and people become sick.

The whole path of salvation is to retain a Spirit lead inner transformation that renews the mind. A receptiveness has to be maintained by not taking part in the predatory mind of the biologically driven human. On one hand there is the animal and the other a refined purified individual who has the potential to be immortal.

There is something like a technology where receptive individuals can be taken from where they stand when the time comes.

When the Bible was read it became deeply absorbing but then when the different doctrines of the visited churches was listened to it was depleting and difficult. There was no separation from the biological temperament and there was a lot of sickness.

Jesus being acceptable to God developed the mind of an immortal that can be shown as a pattern and understood within a Human mind. There is no other way after contemplating many different religious offerings that will achieve the same acceptability to God. Jesus is the only example and is to be followed as the Head and first.

 

[Fizzywig]

Jesus is the only example and is to be followed as the Head and first.

Allan, thanks for your multi-layered response. I would wish to address the last sentence.

Jesus as example. Period? Do we look for the nearest fig tree to curse? Reach for a whip to drive certain others from our church? Ride upon donkeys?

Jesus is the Word made flesh according to Christian belief. But how to follow as "example"?

There is Christ as the ground of being.

As ground of being it can therefore be found in infinite expressions. I appreciate your own allegiance to the Bible as the Word made text, or "letter". There are other texts and other letters.

As I have sought to say, for me it is indisputable that Christ can be found, and is found, throughout history, even prior to what you believe was the Incarnation in time and space.

 

[AllanV]

Allan, thanks for your multi-layered response. I would wish to address the last sentence.

Jesus as example. Period? Do we look for the nearest fig tree to curse? Reach for a whip to drive certain others from our church? Ride upon donkeys?

Jesus is the Word made flesh according to Christian belief. But how to follow as "example"?

There is Christ as the ground of being.

As ground of being it can therefore be found in infinite expressions. I appreciate your own allegiance to the Bible as the Word made text, or "letter". There are other texts and other letters.

As I have sought to say, for me it is indisputable that Christ can be found, and is found, throughout history, even prior to what you believe was the Incarnation in time and space.

Christ is anointing and the example followed will reveal the mind that is acceptable to God. The mind of an immortal can now be revealed and this was developed by Jesus as acceptable to God. The pattern of mind can be comprehended in the differences seen from within the mind in a transformation.

The transformation and renewal of the mind can now be understood.

All mankind is familiar in the mind by their response to incoming sensory information. The Bible is relating that some things occur at a deeper level and the mind is potentially a battle ground between two states. Both states are empowered but one is lead by the biology and individual self willed skills are developed in the mind to interact with others. With observation this tends to be predatory. People do get into the minds of others or at least an attempt is made to get what is perceived to be necessary. If a trespass or incursion is made into another mind this affects the brain and is then felt by the hormones and there is a response. This explains the general and emotional damage that some people carry and also the strong minded who can be difficult.

Most of the scriptures are difficult to understand with out some interpretation. This could be because the translations are completed before this time now. There is enough within the pages to understand when a better observation of human interaction is already complete before reading.

The scriptures relate the kingdom of Satan now rules in the mind by fixtures within it. This is revealed in behaviors and also the emphasis on words coming from the hardened protective mental attitude that every one has.
The idea is if the nature of Jesus is taken up step by step the mind is changed and separation from Satan's kingdom is completed.
Entry into the Kingdom of God produces a people who will take part in a future as immortal beings under the kingship of Jesus but as cooperative rulers.

 

[Robban]

Christ is anointing and the example followed will reveal the mind that is acceptable to God. The mind of an immortal can now be revealed and this was developed by Jesus as acceptable to God. The pattern of mind can be comprehended in the differences seen from within the mind in a transformation.

The transformation and renewal of the mind can now be understood.

All mankind is familiar in the mind by their response to incoming sensory information. The Bible is relating that some things occur at a deeper level and the mind is potentially a battle ground between two states. Both states are empowered but one is lead by the biology and individual self willed skills are developed in the mind to interact with others. With observation this tends to be predatory. People do get into the minds of others or at least an attempt is made to get what is perceived to be necessary. If a trespass or incursion is made into another mind this affects the brain and is then felt by the hormones and there is a response. This explains the general and emotional damage that some people carry and also the strong minded who can be difficult.

Most of the scriptures are difficult to understand with out some interpretation. This could be because the translations are completed before this time now. There is enough within the pages to understand when a better observation of human interaction is already complete before reading.

The scriptures relate the kingdom of Satan now rules in the mind by fixtures within it. This is revealed in behaviors and also the emphasis on words coming from the hardened protective mental attitude that every one has.
The idea is if the nature of Jesus is taken up step by step the mind is changed and separation from Satan's kingdom is completed.
Entry into the Kingdom of God produces a people who will take part in a future as immortal beings under the kingship of Jesus but as cooperative rulers.

Would it be completely unthinkable that the NT was written under the influence of the satan?

 

[AllanV]

Would it be completely unthinkable that the NT was written under the influence of the satan?

Because Satan is within the mind the rendered translation with interpretation is a major concern.

 

[Robban]

Because Satan is within the mind the rendered translation with interpretation is a major concern.

What will that say?

 

[AllanV]

What will that say?

The reality of what the bible relates will be lost.
What the following scripture says still applies. If religion is without an in depth understanding the true path will not be taken and a false doctrine then exists. There are many different types of belief generated and the is no single belief in God from His perspective.


Hosea 4:6King James Version (KJV) 6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

 

[Robban]

The reality of what the bible relates will be lost.
What the following scripture says still applies. If religion is without an in depth understanding the true path will not be taken and a false doctrine then exists. There are many different types of belief generated and the is no single belief in God from His perspective.


Hosea 4:6King James Version (KJV) 6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Deuteronomy 13 warns of a false prophet who would arise to test our faith.

Do not add or subtract, many mistakenly think this means from the whole, of scriptures.

It means do not add or subtract any details from the law.

 

[AllanV]

Deuteronomy 13 warns of a false prophet who would arise to test our faith.

Do not add or subtract, many mistakenly think this means from the whole, of scriptures.

It means do not add or subtract any details from the law.

The God that drew my mind deeper and beyond where thoughts usually come from revealed the mind of an immortal as a comparison. There was much knowledge given and the Love of God was revealed to the extent I partially collapsed and had difficultly breathing.
God was known at that moment as the creator who manifests everything seen and unseen instantly and this is in the whole universe.
There is a foundation, a geometry laid out and everything appears.
I made many notes but burnt them all years ago.

Fourteen years later the truth of the scriptures were understood to a new depth when the divine nature was revealed and the Love in this was energized by God. God was fully indwelling when my own rebellious nature was covered by the nature of Jesus.
Faith had produced a forward momentum lead by the Holy Spirit where my mind was transformed and renewed in a single event during a fast.
It is true.
When a person is prepared the energy comes from within as pure and clean.

The problem for me is that I was not brought up in a church culture or any religion. I just treat my body as an instrument for God to indwell.
When it all goes well it is very good but there have been problems.

 

[Fizzywig]

Christ is anointing and the example followed will reveal the mind that is acceptable to God. The mind of an immortal can now be revealed and this was developed by Jesus as acceptable to God. The pattern of mind can be comprehended in the differences seen from within the mind in a transformation.

The transformation and renewal of the mind can now be understood.

All mankind is familiar in the mind by their response to incoming sensory information. The Bible is relating that some things occur at a deeper level and the mind is potentially a battle ground between two states. Both states are empowered but one is lead by the biology and individual self willed skills are developed in the mind to interact with others. With observation this tends to be predatory. People do get into the minds of others or at least an attempt is made to get what is perceived to be necessary. If a trespass or incursion is made into another mind this affects the brain and is then felt by the hormones and there is a response. This explains the general and emotional damage that some people carry and also the strong minded who can be difficult.

Most of the scriptures are difficult to understand with out some interpretation. This could be because the translations are completed before this time now. There is enough within the pages to understand when a better observation of human interaction is already complete before reading.

The scriptures relate the kingdom of Satan now rules in the mind by fixtures within it. This is revealed in behaviors and also the emphasis on words coming from the hardened protective mental attitude that every one has.
The idea is if the nature of Jesus is taken up step by step the mind is changed and separation from Satan's kingdom is completed.
Entry into the Kingdom of God produces a people who will take part in a future as immortal beings under the kingship of Jesus but as cooperative rulers.

Hi Allan,

Beneath all your words is the familiar circular thinking of many "true" Christians. i.e. The true spirit is needed to interpret in a "saving" sense, I have such saving sense, therefore I have the true spirit.

The Good Book tells us to "test everything to see whether it be of God". Such indeed takes discernment. A discernment that is ours as gift. It is relatively easy to test everything to see if it accords with our current views, but any efficacious discernment is pure gift, given freely, without favouritism. It is far beyond the "discernment" of self-commendation and presumption.