Someone Please Explain Olive Tree Theology

[Job8]

It certainly never refers to today's multi ethnic, secular, democratic, nation state of Israel, that's for sure.

Modern Israel is not the future redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel under Christ. Therefore there is no need to mix up the two. However, modern Israel is composed primarily of Jews, and that is the issue that is important.

Biblically, Israel is defined by COVENANT.

Yes, and the Abrahamic Covenant (which was reiterated to Isaac and Jacob) makes it crystal clear that in God's eyes the descendants of Jacob/Israel will be deemed to be Israel in future, and the twelve tribes will be settled in the Promised Land as described in Ezekiel. The 144,000 redeemed Jews from the 12 tribes are representative of Israel under Christ.

 

[parousia70]

Modern Israel is not the future redeemed and restored kingdom of Israel under Christ. Therefore there is no need to mix up the two. However, modern Israel is composed primarily of Jews, and that is the issue that is important.

However, the Jews in Modern Israel (and Modern Earth for that matter) are Talmudic Jews, not Mosaic Jews.
They have ZERO relationship to the Pre Desolation Mosaic Jews.

So yes, there is no need to mix up the two.

 

[ewq1938]

That would bring relief. I'm pretty sure Lazarus and the rich man is a parable, but the principles Jesus taught, including the unabated fire and the torment a person can never get out of--these are real.

Christ never spoke about eternal torture. I find the idea against God's morality. God's punishments are always just but no sinner deserves eternal torture for a brief life of sinning. They do deserve death though, and the punishment is the second death. There is no life in that death.

Besides, Hades and the people in it are thrown in the Lake of Fire so that parable is still relevant.

Mark 9:43-47
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—44 where
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—46 where
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire—48 where
‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’

Not a word about being tortured forever, just fire that is eternal.

 

[ewq1938]

Luke 16:23-24
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’

Revelation 20:14-15
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

The torture of Hades is described in Luke, and then Hades (and the people who were in it) are cast into the Lake of Fire. If the fire and torture is unabated in Hades, why should those stop in the Lake of Fire?

The torment in Hades is temporary and not anywhere near torture. It's simply unpleasant. That the rich man is not screaming wildly and has a normal conversation proves that. The lake of fire is the second death, a complete death where nothing continues to live. Even if the body doesn't get completely destroyed, what torment or pain can a dead body feel?

 

[ewq1938]

Why resurrect only to kill them again?.. Just to judge them and put them back to sleep? Makes no sense

It makes sense to judge a person who is a complete person and to destroy that complete person. The second death is basically the uncreating of someone, body soul and spirit.

 

[ewq1938]

Eternal torment is exactly what the Bible teaches. You and ewq1938 make the second death pretty palatable.

At least we are true to the concept of death. You teach that even the unsaved receive eternal life which isn't biblically true. There is life or destruction/death. There is no other option.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[dfw69]

I think it's a big mistake to ever use our own human rationale to try to understand what I got does anything. That's when we get into bad territory and start judging God based on our own human evaluations.

God gave us a brain for a reason .. to think about why God does things he does and accept it

 

[ebedmelech]

Yes I would.

Great! As Paul moves forward in Romans 11:7-10 He's explaining there are those of Israel who are chosen of God to obtain salvation and the rest were hardened (vs 7)...and also looks to the prophecy of of Isaiah 29:10 (vs 8) and also Psalms 69:22-3 to show this is the plan of God for those in unbelief (vss 9-10).

At vs 11 Paul now shows that this all works in the plan of God to save Gentiles. This point is also made clear by Paul at Acts 28:28, (just to name one place), when the Jews refuse to believe the gospel, as we know everywhere Paul went he sought out the Jews first.

Would you agree with that?

 

[dfw69]

So Sin and Suffering will exist forever? They are never completely eradicated?

Perhaps to teach future generations not to sin against God ...

Will you love God less if he created eternal damnation for satans followers ?....

We should be glad and rejoice God made a way to escape eternal damnation through Jesus righteousness

 

[dfw69]

Christ never spoke about eternal torture. I find the idea against God's morality. God's punishments are always just but no sinner deserves eternal torture for a brief life of sinning. They do deserve death though, and the punishment is the second death. There is no life in that death.





Not a word about being tortured forever, just fire that is eternal.

So are we not rewarded eternal life for the brief life of righteousness in the faith of Jesus?

 

[StanJ]

God gave us a brain for a reason .. to think about why God does things he does and accept it

Indeed he did, along with clear instructions to obey and not overthink Him.

 

[dfw69]

Great! As Paul moves forward in Romans 11:7-10 He's explaining there are those of Israel who are chosen of God to obtain salvation and the rest were hardened (vs 7)...and also looks to the prophecy of of Isaiah 29:10 (vs 8) and also Psalms 69:22-3 to show this is the plan of God for those in unbelief (vss 9-10).

At vs 11 Paul now shows that this all works in the plan of God to save Gentiles. This point is also made clear by Paul at Acts 28:28, (just to name one place), when the Jews refuse to believe the gospel, as we know everywhere Paul went he sought out the Jews first.

Would you agree with that?

Ebed have you ever been called anti Semitic ?...

I have a question for you.. What is the offense of the cross mean?

 

[dfw69]

Indeed he did, along with clear instructions to obey and not overthink Him.

Yes amen obey Jesus commandments ..to love one another and keep the faith ... So we don't have to worry about eternal damnation in the lake of fire

 

[dfw69]

It makes sense to judge a person who is a complete person and to destroy that complete person. The second death is basically the uncreating of someone, body soul and spirit.

I kinda hope you are correct that there is no eternal lake of fire ... But it's wishful thinking .. The lake of fire was created for Satan and anyone who willfully chooses to follow Satan will reap satans reward ...but if anyone recieves Jesus will recieve Jesus reward

 

[ewq1938]

So are we not rewarded eternal life for the brief life of righteousness in the faith of Jesus?

A reward can be as big as God wants but to be fair and just, the punishment must fit the crime. Overpunishment is unjust and simply cruel.

 

[dfw69]

Well, the Bible says in heaven there are gold streets! So maybe there are mountains of gold dust.(just letting my imagination have a little fun y'all, don't trip)

We can't use our imaginations its forbidden some say

I hope it's a mountain of chocolate fudge

 

[ewq1938]

I kinda hope you are correct that there is no eternal lake of fire ... But it's wishful thinking ..

Well that fire is eternal but if anyone is alive in there forever then the second death isn't true plus all the scriptures I posted about the fate of the wicked being destroyed are also untrue. Eternal torture and being alive eternally in torture is based on misunderstanding a few verses and was used as a scare tactic to force people to believe.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

We can't use our imaginations its forbidden some say

I hope it's a mountain of chocolate fudge

Awwwwww! But I like chocolate too!

 

[dfw69]

A reward can be as big as God wants but to be fair and just, the punishment must fit the crime. Overpunishment is unjust and simply cruel.

It does fit the crime ... Follow Satan reap satans reward ...Satan steals kills and destroys and God have reserved everlasting torment for him .. Makes one think twice to not rise up against gods anointed

 

[dfw69]

Awwwwww! But I like chocolate too!

Can't eat gold haha