What does it take to have salvation?

[dlamberth]

And, yes, here it says we also need to be sweetly pleasing to our Father, in the sacrifices we do.

I don't understand how anything we do from that place of Love could ever be a sacrifice, especially when it is God whom we are Loving in what we do.

And being pleasing to God, I believe, has more to do as a way for us to grow into a more fully human, Human Being than anything else.

Just a couple of comments that bubbled up as I read your post.

 

[com7fy8]

@dlamberth I offer that is clear what you say

By sacrifice we do not mean something that is suffering and a loss. There is what we call the sacrifice of thanksgiving and praise. And I think sacrifice can mean to totally give up something, for the sake of something else. So, we can do something which helps us to become sacrificed to loving, leaving self behind.

So, also, it is not necessarily a material sacrifice. It is measured by the quality of love.

And being pleasing to God, I believe, has more to do as a way for us to grow into a more fully human, Human Being than anything else.

How God wants us to become is most important > we are predestined "to be conformed to the image of His Son", Paul says in Romans 8:29. The sacrifice can be to leave behind our selfish and dominating stuff, and become gentle and humble like Jesus, and all-loving like Jesus.

So - - thank you

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

It can fit with how if you truly forgive someone, you are giving your life to the person . . . your blood. With true forgiveness we give the lifeblood of our love

Jesus on the cross did more than only legally let us off the hook. He loved us and gave Himself.

I think it's fairly easy to relate to a story of heroic self-sacrifice, regardless of whether it's a soldier throwing himself on a grenade to save his comrades, a parent giving their life to save their children, or a deity sacrificing themself to shoulder the burden of their creation.

I even think that Christianity contains a fairly strong message if you see it in the context of a culture that still practiced sacrifices (even if they weren't human at that point of history, for the most part). René Girard made a compelling case for Christianity basically breaking the vicious cycle of the odious "logic" behind ritualized bloodshed, settling once and for all that we ARE forgiven, rendering sacrificial killing a thing of the past once and for all.

All of that said, the story starts to fall apart once you argue that the One True God demanded/needed this human/divine sacrifice: it draws attention away from the heroic willingness to pay the price for protecting others, and instead focuses on the nonsensical brutality of a potentate who will be appeased by nothing short of blood, preferably in large quantities.

And I don't think true forgiveness demands self-sacrifice, figuratively or literally. In fact, I'd go so far as to claim that genuine forgiveness is far more important for the healing process of the forgiving party than for the forgiven. I don't cut out my heart to forgive - I mend it. I don't spill my blood - I clean it of poison that was gnawing away at my psyche.

 

[LoAmmi]

All of that said, the story starts to fall apart once you argue that the One True God demanded/needed this human/divine sacrifice: it draws attention away from the heroic willingness to pay the price for protecting others, and instead focuses on the nonsensical brutality of a potentate who will be appeased by nothing short of blood, preferably in large quantities.

Personally I find that a regression from the Jewish understanding at the time that HaShem didn't need the sacrifices at all but rather it was an external expression of the internal repentance. This is found in Isaiah, so it isn't even some kind of idea that developed later.

If anybody NEEDED the sacrifices it was the Levis and the Priests, since that's how they got their food.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[dlamberth]

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

One of the things I've learned through the years is that a Blood sacrifice to God is not a requirement for a person to live in His sweet-smelling aroma. Or, as I like to put it, to have God as one's reality in life.

 

[dlamberth]

The sacrifice can be to leave behind our selfish and dominating stuff, and become gentle and humble like Jesus, and all-loving like Jesus.

I see what your saying, but when a person actually goes through a rebirth transition born of Love through the Divine, it's more of an awakening. It's only through the eyes of ego that anything is sacrificed because of the ego's attachments to things. Through Love, service is freely given with no constraints as a person becomes more Loving and Compassionate as they move forward in that Love. Spiritual growths tends to be an evolutionary kind of event where a person may not even realize that they are leaving things and actions of the past behind. I dwell on this a bit longer not to make an issue about it, other than to say that for many of these very same reasons is why I do not accept the image of God sacrificing His son. What I do accept when it comes to Christ are things like sitting in the Heart of Christ and moving forward from that perspective. The change in a person from that perspective is not a sacrifice as they become more Christ like.

 

[Fizzywig]

Christianity is meant to be about being in the Pureland before death. When Jesus returns He is returning for His completed Holy Church.

Hi Allan, Pure Land Buddhism, much like we see here with Christianity, is a broad spectrum of often conflicting beliefs and doctrines and teachings. The Pure Land is sometimes seen as a destination beyond this life, yet others see it as THIS world transformed by faith and trust in the infinite compassion of Amida (reality-as-is)

As Robban has said (perhaps implied), genuine trust transforms. In Pure Land Buddhism even our trust itself can be known as that of Amida herself given as gift to us. Being over reliant upon the depth of our own faith, trust and commitment is recognised as a form of "self power"

The myokonin Saichi has said......

O Saichi, will you tell us of Other Power?
Yes, but there is neither self power nor Other Power.
What is, is the Graceful Acceptance only.

This essentially non-dual realisation is fundamental. Such "graceful acceptance" can be recognised as taking infinite forms in infinite lives, beyond all creeds and dogmas and interpretations of "holy" books.

 

[AllanV]

Hi Allan, Pure Land Buddhism, much like we see here with Christianity, is a broad spectrum of often conflicting beliefs and doctrines and teachings. The Pure Land is sometimes seen as a destination beyond this life, yet others see it as THIS world transformed by faith and trust in the infinite compassion of Amida (reality-as-is)

As Robban has said (perhaps implied), genuine trust transforms. In Pure Land Buddhism even our trust itself can be known as that of Amida herself given as gift to us. Being over reliant upon the depth of our own faith, trust and commitment is recognised as a form of "self power"

The myokonin Saichi has said......

O Saichi, will you tell us of Other Power?
Yes, but there is neither self power nor Other Power.
What is, is the Graceful Acceptance only.

This essentially non-dual realisation is fundamental. Such "graceful acceptance" can be recognised as taking infinite forms in infinite lives, beyond all creeds and dogmas and interpretations of "holy" books.

Through experience, even before any reading was done, an understanding was rationalized that is simple.
There is a supernatural aspect that will take the mind beyond and deeper by disarming aspects usually observed in the personality. This can be spontaneous or sought after, in my case there was no search initially and then another time there was an inadvertent discovery that was lead into.

The Bible story is essentially the following when related to salvation.
Everything seen is manifested instantly by a regenerating power that has no limit. There is a pattern and foundation laid out that incrementally measures the power coming into the creation. A corruption appeared and is the oxidizing and decay that takes everything back to a base form.

The human mind was designed for intimate communication with the creator but the corruption of the planetary forces was absorbed, and tuned into by the biologically driven man. The creator God was then held at some distance and was unable to be comprehended by the mind of man who had become predatory in the use of it. The mind of man was then corrupted and misused the power of God by an empowerment of the impure, imperfect aspect in the self bringing with it, degeneration, oxidizing, mutation, aging and then death.

God's Spirit can be enhanced and strengthened because it is now, all the time, immediately present within the body in the atom and cellular life.

The mind gathers up fixtures and is set and these hold it into producing behaviors and also even the way words are delivered. These are not seen as bad in a normal person because it is not understood what they are. Each person attempts to draw others into their own mind set and this installs fixtures through a familiar, behavioral, emotional interaction. The heart and mind become hard in defensive and predatory activity, therefore cementing in a distance from knowing God in the mind.

Jesus walked the earth and resisted the predatory human mental activity with fixtures and developed a mind that was acceptable to God, being one that would regenerate rather than degenerate. The heart and mind of Jesus's nature are gentle and contain an incomprehensible Love that is energized by God. Jesus was able to overcome to the point of death and was raised immortal by the regenerating power of God and is an example and hope of a future for those who believe.

With some assistance an individual is also now able to experience the same nature and acceptability.
There is a completed healing process called salvation that reveals purity of mind and heart, in true holiness, perfection and gives access to the sanctuary of God.
The purity and acceptability needs to be sought by exposing and expelling impure mind fixtures.
The goal is the divine nature with its Love and the indwelling of God powerfully.
These are examples of God's Kingdom ruled by Jesus.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

It's simple, really:

if Christianity imbued its genuine followers with the ability to supernaturally grasp a meaning that is out of reach for any ordinary person, then Christians throughout history would exhibit an inexplicable ability to arrive at the same result in their exegesis of scripture.

As it is, we observe the exact opposite - from the humble beginnings in the first century CE to the present day.
Paul's epistles betray fundamental doctrinal differences in the first and second generation of Christians, and his writings are often aimed at settling disputes among the faithful.
Church history is filled with accounts of the culling of undesirable interpretations (and those who held them), right from the start. Even in these cases, what we see is not a flock of enlightened carrying the torch of revelation to the dark places, but politics, power plays, and military interventions.
The Reformation made the Scriptures available to everyone who could read, sparking literacy and democratization - and also the fragmentation of Christianity into a gazillion of discordant "denominations" who cannot agree on the meaning of a single verse.

 

[Fizzywig]

Through experience, even before any reading was done, an understanding was rationalized that is simple.
There is a supernatural aspect that will take the mind beyond and deeper by disarming aspects usually observed in the personality. This can be spontaneous or sought after, in my case there was no search initially and then another time there was an inadvertent discovery that was lead into.

The Bible story is essentially the following when related to salvation.
Everything seen is manifested instantly by a regenerating power that has no limit. There is a pattern and foundation laid out that incrementally measures the power coming into the creation. A corruption appeared and is the oxidizing and decay that takes everything back to a base form.

The human mind was designed for intimate communication with the creator but the corruption of the planetary forces was absorbed, and tuned into by the biologically driven man. The creator God was then held at some distance and was unable to be comprehended by the mind of man who had become predatory in the use of it. The mind of man was then corrupted and misused the power of God by an empowerment of the impure, imperfect aspect in the self bringing with it, degeneration, oxidizing, mutation, aging and then death.

God's Spirit can be enhanced and strengthened because it is now, all the time, immediately present within the body in the atom and cellular life.

The mind gathers up fixtures and is set and these hold it into producing behaviors and also even the way words are delivered. These are not seen as bad in a normal person because it is not understood what they are. Each person attempts to draw others into their own mind set and this installs fixtures through a familiar, behavioral, emotional interaction. The heart and mind become hard in defensive and predatory activity, therefore cementing in a distance from knowing God in the mind.

Jesus walked the earth and resisted the predatory human mental activity with fixtures and developed a mind that was acceptable to God, being one that would regenerate rather than degenerate. The heart and mind of Jesus's nature are gentle and contain an incomprehensible Love that is energized by God. Jesus was able to overcome to the point of death and was raised immortal by the regenerating power of God and is an example and hope of a future for those who believe.

With some assistance an individual is also now able to experience the same nature and acceptability.
There is a completed healing process called salvation that reveals purity of mind and heart, in true holiness, perfection and gives access to the sanctuary of God.
The purity and acceptability needs to be sought by exposing and expelling impure mind fixtures.
The goal is the divine nature with its Love and the indwelling of God powerfully.
These are examples of God's Kingdom ruled by Jesus.

Hi again,

As I see it and know it, a simple trust in the nature of reality-as-is suffices. Then as the Pure Landers say, things are made to become so of themselves. Or as in the Good Book, the earth brings forth fruits of herself.

Such trust, as I said before, can grow and be known in infinite ways and by infinite means.

Thank you

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Hi again,

As I see it and know it, a simple trust in the nature of reality-as-is suffices. Then as the Pure Landers say, things are made to become so of themselves. Or as in the Good Book, the earth brings forth fruits of herself.

Such trust, as I said before, can grow and be known in infinite ways and by infinite means.

Thank you

And this is why I consider "book religions" that elevate a set of documents to quasi-divine status to be deficient.
Even if there was a divine beings, as the theists insist, choosing the written word as its vector of communicating with us would be the least efficient and most potentially misleading way of communication imaginable - as evidenced by the fracturing of major religions into warring (or at the very least doctrinally differing) sects and the complexities of exegesis required to support specific theological stances.

 

[com7fy8]

if Christianity imbued its genuine followers with the ability to supernaturally grasp a meaning that is out of reach for any ordinary person, then Christians throughout history would exhibit an inexplicable ability to arrive at the same result in their exegesis of scripture.

what we see is not a flock of enlightened carrying the torch of revelation to the dark places, but politics, power plays, and military interventions.

The Reformation made the Scriptures available to everyone who could read, sparking literacy and democratization - and also the fragmentation of Christianity into a gazillion of discordant "denominations" who cannot agree on the meaning of a single verse.

Jane, even we who are real Christians are not perfect. And we are not controlled and cloned by some few dictators who make us all say and think the exact same thing. And there are false ones who come up with many different wrong items.

We grow to know things, like a child needs to develop before he or she even can know what he or she needs to learn. A baby's young body does not have very good unity of behavior. And, like a growing child, we grow into our unity as the body of Jesus.

However, the unity is not only in outward say-so and behavior. But we find our true unity in becoming gentle and humble and all-caring. And we become pleasing to our Father in His love's "gentle and quiet spirit" >

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

Notice how the beauty of God's gentle and quiet love is "incorruptible". No nasty messing things can degrade us, as much as we are in the almighty immunity of God's love. This is included in being saved > being safe emotionally >

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

As we become changed into the image of Jesus, we grow in being safe from various fears and worries and the personality torments which are rooted in fears of different sorts.

So, true unity is in God's love, not only in having the same ideas. Tyrants seek to make all their people the same, so they can control them as a group. But Jesus is not a tyrant. So, yes there are groups who call themselves Christian, but who are isolating people with their ideas, then controlling those groups for what they want. And yes plenty of Satan's people are into this counterfeit stuff. Counterfeits are used to try to make the real thing look bad.

There are people who criticize "God" and "Christianity", but they really are talking about Satan and how things work in his evil kingdom.

But salvation in Jesus is not about quantity of people or copy-catting the same beliefs and behavior, but there is the quality of unity in "the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (in 1 Peter 3:4) And we have our true unity in how we relate > "with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2) "submitting to one another in the fear of God." Ephesians 5:21) And we discover our unity in obeying the theocracy of how our Heavenly Father personally rules each of us in His very own peace in our hearts > Colossians 3:15.

So, yes, there is Satan's clever trick of having people call attention to all that is wrong, so our attention is elsewhere!! And so, salvation includes being turned "from the power of Satan to God" (in Acts 26:18). Only God is able to make the real change, and not only outward change of outward religious conforming.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

com7fy8: your faith won't allow you to believe this, but I actually experience the kind of serenity you describe here - and found it only after I turned away from theism in general and Christianity in particular. (Or more precisely: finding it turned me away from Christianity/theism.)

 

[Fizzywig]

Jane, even we who are real Christians are not perfect. And we are not controlled and cloned by some few dictators who make us all say and think the exact same thing. And there are false ones who come up with many different wrong items.

We grow to know things, like a child needs to develop before he or she even can know what he or she needs to learn. A baby's young body does not have very good unity of behavior. And, like a growing child, we grow into our unity as the body of Jesus.

However, the unity is not only in outward say-so and behavior. But we find our true unity in becoming gentle and humble and all-caring. And we become pleasing to our Father in His love's "gentle and quiet spirit" >

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

Notice how the beauty of God's gentle and quiet love is "incorruptible". No nasty messing things can degrade us, as much as we are in the almighty immunity of God's love. This is included in being saved > being safe emotionally >

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

As we become changed into the image of Jesus, we grow in being safe from various fears and worries and the personality torments which are rooted in fears of different sorts.

So, true unity is in God's love, not only in having the same ideas. Tyrants seek to make all their people the same, so they can control them as a group. But Jesus is not a tyrant. So, yes there are groups who call themselves Christian, but who are isolating people with their ideas, then controlling those groups for what they want. And yes plenty of Satan's people are into this counterfeit stuff. Counterfeits are used to try to make the real thing look bad.

There are people who criticize "God" and "Christianity", but they really are talking about Satan and how things work in his evil kingdom.

But salvation in Jesus is not about quantity of people or copy-catting the same beliefs and behavior, but there is the quality of unity in "the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (in 1 Peter 3:4) And we have our true unity in how we relate > "with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love," (Ephesians 4:2) "submitting to one another in the fear of God." Ephesians 5:21) And we discover our unity in obeying the theocracy of how our Heavenly Father personally rules each of us in His very own peace in our hearts > Colossians 3:15.

So, yes, there is Satan's clever trick of having people call attention to all that is wrong, so our attention is elsewhere!! And so, salvation includes being turned "from the power of Satan to God" (in Acts 26:18). Only God is able to make the real change, and not only outward change of outward religious conforming.

My observation is that genuine transformation can be found and seen in many throughout history without the need to associate it with any particular religion, book or creed. Again, without the need to judge the "true" and the "false" followers, without the need to attribute any opinion not my own to "satan's tricks"

Unity transcends creed or our own particular allegiances.

Communion between people can in fact be hindered by such judgements, attributions and allegiances.

 

[dlamberth]

com7fy8: your faith won't allow you to believe this, but I actually experience the kind of serenity you describe here - and found it only after I turned away from theism in general and Christianity in particular. (Or more precisely: finding it turned me away from Christianity/theism.)

It was much the same for me as well. But I have to say that also the Divine expression in life became more alive and vibrant for me after I turned away from the Christian religion. I think it's because my soul became more free as I was allowed to actually experience the Divine more deeply as well as more opened to a Universal perspective.

 

[TreasureHunter12]

com7fy8: your faith won't allow you to believe this, but I actually experience the kind of serenity you describe here - and found it only after I turned away from theism in general and Christianity in particular. (Or more precisely: finding it turned me away from Christianity/theism.)

Do you remember a struggle and upheaval of parts of your life before/during finding it?

The reason why people are stuck in their belief system is because they don't want to face the pain of that growth experience; it's not really about a lack of exposure to other options or info.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Do you remember a struggle and upheaval of parts of your life before/during finding it?

Yeah, I went through a kind of "Christian nihilist"-phase right before that, considering mankind to be horribly deficient and headed straight for the abyss (myself included).
The mystical experience that helped me to snap out of that mode of thought was quite a profound contrast with that. It was - for lack of a better word - Love. Not desire. Not want. Not attraction. A Love complete unto itself, embodying the very nature of reality and holding it all together. I remember lying awake all night in some kind of bliss, realizing that in that one perfect moment lay eternity.

It did not immediately result in my deconversion. Love seemed compatible with my childhood faith at first glance, which had always revolved around a very benevolent, merciful interpretation of God and Jesus. I hardly knew the "fire and brimstone"-elements that some denominations are so fond of. The Christian God was GOOD, right?
I was eager to learn more, eager to study the religion I had been brought up with to find that Love embodied within it.
The reverse happens: the more I learned about Christianity, the more I read the Bible, the less it corresponded with my experience and even the plain reality that surrounded me. My deconversion wasn't a traumatic process, however: more like gradually realizing that Santa Claus wasn't real, but that he still held value as a symbol/myth/embodiment of the season.

 

[AllanV]

It's simple, really:

if Christianity imbued its genuine followers with the ability to supernaturally grasp a meaning that is out of reach for any ordinary person, then Christians throughout history would exhibit an inexplicable ability to arrive at the same result in their exegesis of scripture.

As it is, we observe the exact opposite - from the humble beginnings in the first century CE to the present day.
Paul's epistles betray fundamental doctrinal differences in the first and second generation of Christians, and his writings are often aimed at settling disputes among the faithful.
Church history is filled with accounts of the culling of undesirable interpretations (and those who held them), right from the start. Even in these cases, what we see is not a flock of enlightened carrying the torch of revelation to the dark places, but politics, power plays, and military interventions.
The Reformation made the Scriptures available to everyone who could read, sparking literacy and democratization - and also the fragmentation of Christianity into a gazillion of discordant "denominations" who cannot agree on the meaning of a single verse.

Ordinary people have progressively taken charge by establishing Bible colleges where doctrine is set.
It began during the time of the Apostle Paul as the scripture states.

 

[AllanV]

Hi again,

As I see it and know it, a simple trust in the nature of reality-as-is suffices. Then as the Pure Landers say, things are made to become so of themselves. Or as in the Good Book, the earth brings forth fruits of herself.

Such trust, as I said before, can grow and be known in infinite ways and by infinite means.

Thank you

This is something of a default position after a reset button is pushed.