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The Early Church is the Catholic Church

Teslafied

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Jesus only started one Church. He said that he was building the Church on Peter. You apparently don't believe him.

Which Church do you think is the Church Jesus started?

I'm sorry you have a faulty interpretation of the bible.

If the church was built on Peter it failed. Afterall Peter denied Jesus not once, not twice, but thrice! Humans doubt and flesh fails that's why Jesus came. God didn't come all the way down to earth to tell us that the church is based on a man. If the church was based on a man aka Peter well it failed because poor Peter is dead. Now the church being truly founded on Christ the rock of salvation did not fail because Jesus IS God and He's eternal.
 
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Thursday

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I'm sorry you have a faulty interpretation of the bible.

If the church was built on Peter it failed. Afterall Peter denied Jesus not once, not twice, but thrice! Humans doubt and flesh fails that's why Jesus came. God didn't come all the way down to earth to tell us that the church is based on a man. If the church was based on a man aka Peter well it failed because poor Peter is dead. Now the church being truly founded on Christ the rock of salvation did not fail because Jesus IS God and He's eternal.

All humans are sinful, but the Church is divine. The Church is the body of Christ. Jesus promised to be with his Church until the end of the world, and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

Do you believe the promises of Jesus?
 
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Teslafied

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All humans are sinful, but the Church is divine. The Church is the body of Christ. Jesus promised to be with his Church until the end of the world, and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

Do you believe the promises of Jesus?

What is the church? You're skipping over the definition, the church does not equal Peter. The church is every believer. The church is not some cult straight from the Roman Empire and their wackadoo Babylonian idol worship.
 
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actionsub

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Above is typical Catholic conflation apologetics. A Church Father writes something about Peter and Catholics read it as being about the Bishop of Rome. The best example of how foolish this approach is, is through their misuse of St John Chrysostom who spent most of his life NOT in communion with Rome, and yet not once in the huge volume of his works does he say anything suggesting he needed that communion to be in Christ's Church.

It is indeed an exercise in begging the question.
 
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prodromos

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Not true. The Bishop of Rome was recognized by the Eastern Patriarchs as the successor of Peter. When they left the Catholic Church, they were cutting themselves off from the successor of Peter and they knew this to be the case.
You keep telling yourself that :)
 
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prodromos

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You are avoiding the point because you have no choice.
Au contraire, it is you who is avoiding the point. I'll ask a third time though I don't expect you will answer. Who does the Patriarch of Antioch trace his Apostolic lineage back to?
You and I both know that the Bishop of Rome was regarded as the successor of Peter by all the Eastern Patriarchs before, during, and after some of them left the Catholic Church.
The Bishop of Rome was not the exclusive successor to Peter regardless of the accolades given to Rome. The Church in Rome was under nearly constant persecution until the Edict of Milan, with many Popes becoming martyrs for the faith.
 
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Soyeong

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I think Jesus is clarifying the spirit of the law whereas some were focused on the letter of the law.

Jesus is pointing out that David broke the Sabbath traditions by eating bread from the temple. He seems to condone this.

I don't think the issue here is obeying the law, but rather understanding the law.

There are various instances where God's laws seem to conflict with each other, such as when the command to circumcise a baby boy on the 8th day happens to fall on the Sabbath. It would seem that if they chose to circumcise the boy, then they broke the Sabbath, but if they kept the Sabbath, then they broke the command to circumcise, however, the issue was not they were forced to sin no matter which law they chose to obey, but rather that one of the laws was never intended to prohibit the other law from being obeyed. In this case, the command not to work on the Sabbath was never intended to prevent a baby boy from being circumcised on the 8th day, so doing so was not breaking the Sabbath. Similarly, the issue arose about what to do if someone needs medical attention on the Sabbath, where rabbi Shammai taught that the Sabbath had priority and people from his school were criticizing Jesus for healing on the Sabbath, but Jesus took the position that the Sabbath was never intended to prohibit us from doing good. This is the same point that Jesus was making in Mark 2:23-27, so I agree that this is an issue about how to correctly understand and obey the law.
 
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GillDouglas

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No other Church can legitimately make this claim.

These early writings confirm the truth that Jesus started one Church and it was the Catholic Church.

First up, this is taken from the letter of Pope Clement, the fourth pope, written to the Corinthians in about 90 AD. I've highlighted some key quotes that demonstrate the authority of the Church and the pope.
<snip>

No one really cares which was the first 'church', honestly. If I had a pick one, I would agree with @Soyeong that the congregation of Jewish followers of Jesus was the first Christian church. You speak of worldly things as if they have some real meaning or value. You might want to think upon whether you're just really proud of the long history of your church or just boasting.

Also, I think its funny that you would judge a Messianic Jew for following traditions.
 
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Job8

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In the beginning, there was just one Church.
We need to always distinguish between the Church (redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body) and churches (assemblies in various cities). So the Church is the Body of Christ.
We can determine which Church it is today by following the successors of the apostles.
Any church (local assembly) which adheres to the New Testament pattern could be considered an apostolic church.
Do you think a Church without the successor of Peter could be the Church Jesus started?
Sure. None of the churches in the first century were accountable to Peter as such, and Peter was the apostle to the church at Jerusalem. So the church at Jerusalem would go back to Peter (and the other apostles and elders at Jerusalem). We do not see Peter as the primate of the Jerusalem church either. It would appear that James was the leader.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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No other Church can legitimately make this claim.

These early writings confirm the truth that Jesus started one Church and it was the Catholic Church.

First up, this is taken from the letter of Pope Clement, the fourth pope, written to the Corinthians in about 90 AD. I've highlighted some key quotes that demonstrate the authority of the Church and the pope.

First Epistle to the Church at Corinth,
by His Holiness Pope St. Clement I



Chapter 40

These things therefore being manifest to us, and since we look into the depths of the divine knowledge, it behoves us to do all things in their proper order, which the Lord has commanded us to perform at stated times. He has enjoined offerings to be presented and service to be performed to Him, and that not thoughtlessly or irregularly, but at the appointed times and hours. Where and by whom He desires these things to be done, He Himself has fixed by His own supreme will, in order that all things being piously done according to His good pleasure, may be acceptable to Him. Those, therefore, who present their offerings at the appointed times, are accepted and blessed; for inasmuch as they follow the laws of the Lord, they sin not. For his own peculiar services are assigned to the high priest, and their own proper place is prescribed to the priests, and their own special ministrations devolve on the Levites. The layman is bound by the laws that pertain to laymen.

Chapter 41

Let every one of you, brethren, give thanks to God in his own order, living in all good conscience, with becoming gravity, and not going beyond the rule of the ministry prescribed to him. Not in every place, brethren, are the daily sacrifices offered, or the peace-offerings, or the sin-offerings and the trespass-offerings, but in Jerusalem only. And even there they are not offered in any place, but only at the altar before the temple, that which is offered being first carefully examined by the high priest and the ministers already mentioned. Those, therefore, who do anything beyond that which is agreeable to His will, are punished with death. You see, brethren, that the greater the knowledge that has been vouchsafed to us, the greater also is the danger to which we are exposed.

Chapter 42

The apostles have preached the Gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ has done so from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first-fruits of their labours, having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus says the Scripture a certain place, "I will appoint their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith."

Chapter 43

And what wonder is it if those in Christ who were entrusted with such a duty by God, appointed those ministers before mentioned, when the blessed Moses also, "a faithful servant in all his house," noted down in the sacred books all the injunctions which were given him, and when the other prophets also followed him, bearing witness with one consent to the ordinances which he had appointed? For, when rivalry arose concerning the priesthood, and the tribes were contending among themselves as to which of them should be adorned with that glorious title, he commanded the twelve princes of the tribes to bring him their rods, each one being inscribed with the name of the tribe. And he took them and bound them together, and sealed them with the rings of the princes of the tribes, and laid them up in the tabernacle of witness on the table of God. And having shut the doors of the tabernacle, he sealed the keys, as he had done the rods, and said to them, Men and brethren, the tribe whose rod shall blossom has God chosen to fulfil the office of the priesthood, and to minister to Him. And when the morning was come, he assembled all Israel, six hundred thousand men, and showed the seals to the princes of the tribes, and opened the tabernacle of witness, and brought forth the rods. And the rod of Aaron was found not only to have blossomed, but to bear fruit upon it. What think you, beloved? Did not Moses know beforehand that this would happen? Undoubtedly he knew; but he acted thus, that there might be no sedition in Israel, and that the name of the true and only God might be glorified; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Chapter 44

Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those presbyters already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry. We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them, or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole Church, and who have blame-lessly served the flock of Christ in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry. For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties. Blessed are those presbyters who, having finished their course before now, have obtained a fruitful and perfect departure [from this world]; for they have no fear lest any one deprive them of the place now appointed them. But we see that you have removed some men of excellent behaviour from the ministry, which they fulfilled blamelessly and with honour.

This and dozens of other early Church writings can be found here:

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/
Firstly, you aren't even quoting the Scriptures and it is the Scriptures and only the Scriptures that Jesus points us to.
Jesus says in John 17:17:
Sanctify them by Thy Truth; Thy Word is Truth.
You have veered off course from the Truth by adding to it...how dare anyone...and superimposing man made rules in other areas.
 
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prodromos

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I disagree. I guess we'll have to leave it there as far a Clement goes.

Subsequent quotes from other early Christians support my position, however.

For example, how do you deal with this?

"[After quoting Matthew 16:18f; John 21:15ff]...

On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigned a like power to all the Apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one Chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (Cyprian, The Unity of the Catholic Church [first edition] 4, c. AD 251)
This is one of the most abused quotes by Catholic apologists. St Cyprian is not speaking of Rome when he speaks of the "one chair". He speaks of the one chair on which ALL bishops sit, and in particular on which he himself sits.
 
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BornAgainChristian1

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Jesus only started one Church. He said that he was building the Church on Peter. You apparently don't believe him.

Which Church do you think is the Church Jesus started?

The only person in the bible that is ever referred as the "ROCK" is Christ Himself. Do a word study on "rock" in the bible.

Peter was not the first pope nor is there a pope mentioned or condoned in the bible

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter (stone), and upon this rock I will build my Church: and the gates of hell shall not overcome it.

John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And Jesus beheld him, and said, Thou art Simon the son of Jonah: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation a stone.

Who was Christ referring to when He said this....19 Jesus answered, and said unto them, Destroy this Temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.

1 Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay, than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:4
And did all drink the same spiritual drink for they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them: and the Rock was Christ.


Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone, and a rock to make men fall: and everyone that believeth in him, shall not be ashamed.
 
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chevyontheriver

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The Catholic Church does not teach Torah observance, so that is a significant distinction from how Christianity was first practiced.
No Torah observance is necessary for the goyim, at least according to the apostles. You may be Torah observant, but is not a requirement for me. The Catholic Church simply follows the New Testament on this depending on who you are.
 
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Soyeong

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No Torah observance is necessary for the goyim, at least according to the apostles. You may be Torah observant, but is not a requirement for me. The Catholic Church simply follows the New Testament on this depending on who you are.

We must obey God rather than man, so if God said to do something and you think that man said that Gentiles don't have to do that, then you should obey God rather than man. According to Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from God's law, so if you think that the apostles had subtracted all but four of the laws of the Torah, then they would have been sinning. Furthermore, according to Deuteronomy 13:4-6, anyone who says not to follow any of God's commands is a false prophet, even if they perform signs and wonders, so if you think the apostles had done that, then you should know that they were not speaking for God and you should disregard what they said. However, it doesn't come down to that because when we are careful not to misinterpret something that is against obeying man-made laws as being against obeying God's law, then we will see that the apostles never spoke against Torah observance for Gentiles.

On the contrary, Gentiles are told not to sin, and sin is defined as the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4), so Gentiles are not to transgress God's law. Our salvation is from sin, so our salvation is from transgressing God's law for the purpose of coming into obedience to it. We are saved by grace through faith, not by doing good works, but for the purpose of doing good works (Ephesians 2:8-10) and OT Scriptures, which primarily includes God's law, equip us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). We have been set free from disobedience to the law to become slaves of obedience (Romans 6:16). Christ gave us a perfect example to follow of walking in obedience to God's law and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), and to walk as he walked (1 John 2:4-6). Jesus said that not the least part of the law would disappear until heaven and earth pass away and all is accomplish, both of which refer to end times. He also warned that those who relaxed the least part of the law or taught others to do the same would be called least in the kingdom (Matthew 5:17-19).
 
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rockytopva

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The Messianic church was the first church. The church if taught as coming down in ages...

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the circumcision, Peter.
Smyrna - Gentile Persecuted Church - Beginning with the Apostle to the uncircumcision, Paul.
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate. Issues, yes, but we all have our issues. This is a Christian church all the same.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing?
 
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ViaCrucis

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In the beginning, there was just one Church. We can determine which Church it is today by following the successors of the apostles.

Do you think a Church without the successor of Peter could be the Church Jesus started?


Also, I don't think that the pope exercising his authority over other Churches, as Pope Clement did, can be used by any Church other than the Catholic Church as evidence of their status as the first Church.

St. Peter has a successor in Antioch, not just Rome. Can a Church without the successor of Peter be the Church Jesus started?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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The Catholic Church does not teach Torah observance, so that is a significant distinction from how Christianity was first practiced.

The Apostles didn't teach Torah observance, so that seems like a pretty big non-issue.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Linet Kihonge

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Who should we look up to the Church that proudly traces its descent to Peter or the Church that follows the word of the LORD? Is the Church that is able to trace its succession back to Peter, 100% scripturally sound??? How much scripture supports the blessing or intercession to Mary & other venerated Saints? How comes apostles Including PETER only pointed us to God the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit and not others used in both Novenas and prayer books??? How comes only the Ordained are allowed to Interpret Scripture? Does it deny the competence of the Holy Spirit to teach layman or is it fear it will lead to more Protestantism?
 
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pat34lee

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No other Church can legitimately make this claim.
These early writings confirm the truth that Jesus started one Church and it was the Catholic Church.

NO church at all can make that claim legitimately.
Yeshua made no church. He never left Judaism. His
disciples were all Jews who remained Jews all their
lives. The true followers of them, Wayists or Nazarenes,
kept the faith for several hundred years until they were
broken up by both Christians and Jews as apostates.
 
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pat34lee

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The Apostles didn't teach Torah observance, so that seems like a pretty big non-issue.

Wrong. Read James. Read any NT book
with the foreknowledge that they had
no NT and everything they taught came
from the Torah.
 
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