What We Believe

[fat wee robin]

glad you liked what Dot posted, is there an Orthodox Church near you?

No there is not ,as I live in the countryside,and the nearest one is I believe
several hundred kilometres away ,but I may be moving, and there is an Orthodox Church near my famliy . What I imagine may happen in the near future is that there may be big changes coming down ,and we will go back to
something like we had in the past . I loved one part where the Church is described as a 'living thing' while certain have ossified ,and excluded .I am not however a progressive ,just to be clear ,but I do believe the Church must breathe,and the in the case of Rome it simply suffocates .

 

[ArmyMatt]

prayers for you! Lord have mercy!

 

[fat wee robin]

prayers for you! Lord have mercy!

Merci beaucoup , et que Dieu vous benit .

 

[Dorothea]

Hi, fat wee robin,

You're welcome! I'm glad what I posted uplifted you. God be with you.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Merci beaucoup , et que Dieu vous benit .

You are most welcome!

 

[Light of the East]

The mob that called out for his crucifixion to Pilate is a kind of second fall, Fr. David said, because they have a rejection in belief in Who He is. He's not a passive victim of the tragedy of rejection of Him. Far beyond that. It transcends tragedy. He voluntarily offers Himself unto death. It is a voluntary sacrifice. No one, including the Father, demanded it of Him. (remember this!)

I've never heard this expressed before. When I was in Protestantism, the idea was always that the sacrifice of Christ was in the mind of the Father from the beginning. Could someone expand upon this a bit?

 

[Light of the East]

Noting the dates on the posts here, it has been 2-3 years since the last post that I discovered this thread.

Marvelous stuff here.

Dorothea, you did a wonderful thing in posting all this and are to be commended for your hard work and dedication.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I've never heard this expressed before. When I was in Protestantism, the idea was always that the sacrifice of Christ was in the mind of the Father from the beginning. Could someone expand upon this a bit?

it was, but the Father and the Son have one mind (since there is one God). the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, as it says in Revelation. since there is only on Divine Will as well, whatever the Father freely willed, is also freely willed by the Son.

 

[Light of the East]

it was, but the Father and the Son have one mind (since there is one God). the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, as it says in Revelation. since there is only on Divine Will as well, whatever the Father freely willed, is also freely willed by the Son.

Thank you, Matt. But that doesn't explain to me that the Father didn't demand it. That's what I was referring to, that the sacrifice was necessary to appease the wrath of God (i.e., therefore it is demanded to "pay for" sin and appease God)

 

[~Anastasia~]

Can God forgive simply because He desires to have mercy on someone? Is His wrath so out of His control, that it DEMANDS to be satisfied by being spent on punishing SOMEone, else He cannot show mercy?

The perfect blood sacrifice has been made ... God's "wrath" is another matter ....

This image of God sort of puts God the Father and God the Son at odds with one another in terms of desire and personality, don't you think?

 

[ArmyMatt]

But that doesn't explain to me that the Father didn't demand it. That's what I was referring to, that the sacrifice was necessary to appease the wrath of God (i.e., therefore it is demanded to "pay for" sin and appease God)

where does it say that the Father demands anything to appease His wrath?

 

[Light of the East]

where does it say that the Father demands anything to appease His wrath?

Thank you - all of you - as I work through my Western mindset of "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God."

Matt, when I read this:

Can God forgive simply because He desires to have mercy on someone? Is His wrath so out of His control, that it DEMANDS to be satisfied by being spent on punishing SOMEone, else He cannot show mercy?

The perfect blood sacrifice has been made ... God's "wrath" is another matter ....

This image of God sort of puts God the Father and God the Son at odds with one another in terms of desire and personality, don't you think?

I thought immediately of "demand." I mean, what is sacrifice but a payment to a demand for justice?

And the Scriptures are filled with verses which speak of God's anger and wrath. So it is not as easy as thought to just put this aside and see God as a Being without wrath when the Scriptures speak of it. Sacrifice, in the Western mindset, speaks of appeasing that wrath and cooling down the anger.

Look forward to your answer on this. I am learning.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I mean, what is sacrifice but a payment to a demand for justice?

an offering out of love.

And the Scriptures are filled with verses which speak of God's anger and wrath. So it is not as easy as thought to just put this aside and see God as a Being without wrath when the Scriptures speak of it. Sacrifice, in the Western mindset, speaks of appeasing that wrath and cooling down the anger.

I know, I had that mindset for many a year. to say that God can be cooled and His wrath appeased means that He can change. He was angry at us and now He is not because He took out His anger on His Son. so it is God who changes while we remain the same.

in the Orthodox POV, the wrath of God is His love as experienced in the face of the sinner. so we appease His wrath because Christ's dying on the Cross and Resurrection changes us, and not Him. yes He has wrath and anger, but not in the same way we do. St. Maximos the Confessor says that the same sun will harden clay and melt wax. the sun stays the same.

 

[Light of the East]

an offering out of love.



I know, I had that mindset for many a year. to say that God can be cooled and His wrath appeased means that He can change. He was angry at us and now He is not because He took out His anger on His Son. so it is God who changes while we remain the same.

in the Orthodox POV, the wrath of God is His love as experienced in the face of the sinner. so we appease His wrath because Christ's dying on the Cross and Resurrection changes us, and not Him. yes He has wrath and anger, but not in the same way we do. St. Maximos the Confessor says that the same sun will harden clay and melt wax. the sun stays the same.

Yes. I remember reading that in Dr. Alexandre Kalomiro's presentation THE RIVER OF FIRE. I still find that view more compelling than the Western view of an angry God who has to be placated. It puts all the onus of salvation on us and our choices rather than this angry God who actively chooses to save a few and damn the rest.

Still.....hard to get away from the propitiation of wrath model.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Yes. I remember reading that in Dr. Alexandre Kalomiro's presentation THE RIVER OF FIRE. I still find that view more compelling than the Western view of an angry God who has to be placated. It puts all the onus of salvation on us and our choices rather than this angry God who actively chooses to save a few and damn the rest.

Still.....hard to get away from the propitiation of wrath model.

I just want to say, I'm appreciating your questions because I like to see the answers you receive. This was really the turning point for me to embrace Orthodoxy, since only the Orthodox Church has this view of God (that He loves us and wants us saved, and it is only our deliberate rejection of Him, and NOT His desire to "pay us back" for our sins, that determines our course and is the basis for our path to salvation). I can relate - it is VERY difficult to get over that mindset concerning God, but once I did, the Gospel suddenly fell into place and God's very nature made sense. There is no way I could, in complete honesty, reconcile the view I'd been taught of God's wrathful need to punish us with Christ as He revealed Himself to us. It IS difficult to fully understand (will we EVER "fully understand" God? ), but having the understanding of the Orthodox Church makes it all make sense.

I don't know if this could help you, but I credit the "lightbulb moment" for myself to listening to many hours of AFR - almost all Fr. Evan Armitas in Orthodoxy Live - back then. I played several episodes every day while I did my (mindless) chores, and Fr. Evan explains things on such a basic level that, taken all together, it finally sank in. I listened to Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick back then too, on differences between Orthodoxy and various denominations and how their theology evolved. Iirc, Fr. Patrick Reardon has some good info on this particular topic that also helped. All of this I got from AFR (Ancient Faith Radio) online.

But I can relate to your difficulties, and I still like to read conversations on this. So as I said, I really appreciate your questions.

 

[Light of the East]

I just want to say, I'm appreciating your questions because I like to see the answers you receive. This was really the turning point for me to embrace Orthodoxy, since only the Orthodox Church has this view of God (that He loves us and wants us saved, and it is only our deliberate rejection of Him, and NOT His desire to "pay us back" for our sins, that determines our course and is the basis for our path to salvation). I can relate - it is VERY difficult to get over that mindset concerning God, but once I did, the Gospel suddenly fell into place and God's very nature made sense. There is no way I could, in complete honesty, reconcile the view I'd been taught of God's wrathful need to punish us with Christ as He revealed Himself to us. It IS difficult to fully understand (will we EVER "fully understand" God? ), but having the understanding of the Orthodox Church makes it all make sense.

I don't know if this could help you, but I credit the "lightbulb moment" for myself to listening to many hours of AFR - almost all Fr. Evan Armitas in Orthodoxy Live - back then. I played several episodes every day while I did my (mindless) chores, and Fr. Evan explains things on such a basic level that, taken all together, it finally sank in. I listened to Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick back then too, on differences between Orthodoxy and various denominations and how their theology evolved. Iirc, Fr. Patrick Reardon has some good info on this particular topic that also helped. All of this I got from AFR (Ancient Faith Radio) online.

But I can relate to your difficulties, and I still like to read conversations on this. So as I said, I really appreciate your questions.

Ummmmmm......thank you. They are heartfelt and not designed to cause contention. For many years I have wrestled with so many inner demons which made me a person who was A.) not particularly fun to be with and B.) unhappy inside, even as a professing Christian. I've come to realize that the overarching reason for this is something similar to what Luther experienced. You see, it is in man's nature to transpose the relationship we have with our earthly fathers to God our Father. As such, Luther's dad was ........... not a nice person ...... and Luther transposed that to God, making God to be in Luther's mind this unpleasable tyrant. It drove Luther all his life, and you can see it in his writings.

I think that something similar happened to Augustine when he came up with some of his not-so-Eastern-in-thought theories with which Holy Orthodoxy does not agree. Augustine, as you remember, lived a very dissolute life before his conversion, and I have the feeling that guilt over this colored his thinking and perception of God, especially in the Roman legal milieu in which he lived.

And in similar manner, I have had both Luther and Augustine's experiences, and I realize that I struggle to see God as loving Father instead of angry Judge.

I think I should look up Fr. Evan's audios. Do you happen to have a link?

Thanks....for your comments, helps, and especially to those who have prayed for me.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Ummmmmm......thank you. They are heartfelt and not designed to cause contention. For many years I have wrestled with so many inner demons which made me a person who was A.) not particularly fun to be with and B.) unhappy inside, even as a professing Christian. I've come to realize that the overarching reason for this is something similar to what Luther experienced. You see, it is in man's nature to transpose the relationship we have with our earthly fathers to God our Father. As such, Luther's dad was ........... not a nice person ...... and Luther transposed that to God, making God to be in Luther's mind this unpleasable tyrant. It drove Luther all his life, and you can see it in his writings.

I think that something similar happened to Augustine when he came up with some of his not-so-Eastern-in-thought theories with which Holy Orthodoxy does not agree. Augustine, as you remember, lived a very dissolute life before his conversion, and I have the feeling that guilt over this colored his thinking and perception of God, especially in the Roman legal milieu in which he lived.

And in similar manner, I have had both Luther and Augustine's experiences, and I realize that I struggle to see God as loving Father instead of angry Judge.

I think I should look up Fr. Evan's audios. Do you happen to have a link?

Thanks....for your comments, helps, and especially to those who have prayed for me.

Just to be clear, I hope I didn't come across that I thought you were contentious or that I was saying anyone else thought so. I was merely expressing appreciation for honest inquiry, which is what your posts sound like to me. I can respect that very much.

Here's the link for Orthodoxy Live. I wish I could point you to a particular episode, but I listened to them all, then listened a second and third time. I think it's his general manner. But it was the episodes prior to about May 2015 - though anything recent is probably just as helpful. I just had my "moment" around that time.

I think what you say about fathers is very true. I didn't have a very good relationship with my stepfather (he was actually quite frightening), and I didn't meet my real father until much later, and that didn't go well either. I had my grandfather, but he rarely spoke to a child - all he had to do was look at us and we were terrified. I haven't read that much of Luther or Augustine - I have read some - but not to a degree to be able to analyze that really, and I doubt I ever will. But I could recognize even as a child that it was difficult to relate to a "Father God" because of how I felt about "father" in general. I think I actually have my priest, Fr. M, to thank for being helpful in this as well. It's taken the better part of two years now to build a solid basis of trust but I think that process has been very healing for me. So I certainly agree with your statements.

The Orthodox Church offers help with those inner demons. Just don't be in too big a hurry, and pray for the right help to come to you. But there are many helpful tools. It's another thing I very much appreciate about the Church. It really is all about healing and freedom.

You have my prayers as well. God be with you.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Still.....hard to get away from the propitiation of wrath model.

I know, haha. and that is no issue as an Orthodox Christian. it's okay to have those struggles. God will illumine you in His time.

 

[READERJOSEPH]

I have taken notes on a lecture by Fr. David Anderson on what the Orthodox Church believes. I would like to share all of what I took notes on here so that people who are interested in the EOC, can read this thread to learn where we stand on very important issues. I have two more DVD's to listen to, so I will probably add more notes after watching them. I was wondering if the MODS should make this a sticky so people can see it when they come in and go to it.



ETA: As of this evening, March 5, 2014, I have added a link on the last page that was provided to me by angelsbooklove (christian forum member who has this series on tape as well and uploaded the videos for us).

Does she still have this series as well as The Inner Life series? I am looking for a new set to transfer to DVD.

 

[Dorothea]

Noting the dates on the posts here, it has been 2-3 years since the last post that I discovered this thread.

Marvelous stuff here.

Dorothea, you did a wonderful thing in posting all this and are to be commended for your hard work and dedication.

Hi, Light of the East,

Thanks for your kind comments! Ah, to get back into those zealous days of mine where I could sit and take notes off of 12-DVD sets of lectures! lol ArmyMatt answered your questions perfectly, so I don't have anything to add other than, thanks for reading over the lectures and I'm glad you're getting something out of them.