Galatians 3: Under The Law?

[Sophrosyne]

Isaiah 56
3Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely separate me from His people." Nor let the eunuch say, "Behold, I am a dry tree."
6"Also the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, To minister to Him, and to love the name of the LORD, To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the sabbath And holds fast My covenant;
7Even those I will bring to My holy mountain And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar; For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples."

Foreigners who "join" themselves are NO longer foreigners and NO LONGER GENTILES upon that act.

God had that promise for Gentiles before Jesus' earthly time, so it shows that God didn't plan on making the Sabbath Hebrew-exclusive. In that promise several hundred years before Jesus was born, it is true that no threat of punishment was given to the Gentiles for not keeping the Sabbath holy. However, God promised blessing and honour for those who did. ie. God had already begun to work on the Gentiles by way of invitation.

Hogwash, nothing but a delusionary dream with no basis in the Bible whatsoever.

It is a relevant example, because of Isaiah 56:6. I was using what was written there to translate it into a modern analogy. The Hebrew word translated here as 'profane' also means 'desecrate' and 'pollute', which are forms of vandalism of what is holy.

Give me a break.... how can one "vandalize" a day of the week.... what udder nonsense.

Well clearly Jesus didn't tell His disciples anything averse to keeping the Sabbath holy, because they refused to embalm Jesus because it was the Sabbath day. They obviously loved Him very much, but keeping the Sabbath was more important than embalming Jesus.

The Sabbath Day was so important that is was FORGOTTEN throughout the New Testament pretty much no importance attached to anyone BUT Jesus keeping it.

Somehow Seth, Enoch, Joseph and Abimelek knew. Either it was passed down from mouth through generations through Adam's/Noah's/Abraham's interaction with God or God spoke to them directly.


Neither is the commandment to honour our parents something you can just "do". Different cultures had different definitions of honouring their parents. Cannibals are the most different ones that comes to mind.


What do you think was the reason why God ordered a death sentence for those who curse their parents and break the Sabbath intentionally (this is different from forgetting)?

All this means nothing as Jesus himself reiterated 9 of the 10 commandments which are pretty much contained in the "love your neighbor" commandment. Too bad the Sabbath day was IGNORED by Jesus as an "important" commandment..... even when asked what was the GREATEST commandment Jesus didn't even give the Sabbath a mention. Why you folks are so fixated on a defunct commandment that Jesus didn't himself promote as part of Christianity nor did any of his chosen apostles promote the Sabbath Commandment is beyond me. It is like you are all worshiping the DAY itself instead of Jesus.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Perhaps you should read up how Jewish rabbinical tradition viewed it.

If the same Rabbis would also say that the Sabbath Day isn't but Israel's (Jews) would you IGNORE that?

Firstly, Paul still extolled Judaism.
Romans 3
1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision?
2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

Secondly, Paul believed the whole world will still be judged by the Law.
Romans 3
19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

Thirdly, whatever Paul said, he did not mean that the Law no longer had meaning.
31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Sometimes, a certain verse can be interpreted in multiple ways. To make sure your interpretation doesn't contradict what the author meant, you need to read his own conclusions about the matter.


A disciple wasn't a instant carbon copy of the rabbi. It was a long, intensive process. A disciple is someone who wants to and actively does his best imitating everything his rabbi did.

nope..... Paul didn't promote Judaism at all, and you purposely IGNORE Paul when he says that those who choose to be under the Law will be judged by it and those who choose grace will NOT. If he was promoting Judaism then why do you IGNORE most of their commandments while saying that Paul wants us to be full blown Jews... you contend he wants us to be partial Jews keeping this and that commandment...... HOGWASH I say.

 

[Sophrosyne]

In my defense, I was merely translating God's own promise into a modern day analogy.
Isaiah 56:6 calls it polluting/desecrating/profaning. 'Vandalism' still sounds nicer than 'desecrating'.

I don't buy personal translations, as you ignore my personal translations why should I buy yours?

 

[Sophrosyne]

Oh btw I'm not going to vote for such a vague term as the Torah.... it is pretty much meaningless such that not even those in the MJ forum can agree what it means specifically.

 

[bugkiller]

I have no idea what you mean here.

Just submit to v 10 since you quoted v 11.

Sure!
Exodus 20
11"For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Genesis 2
2By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
3Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Where does the word Sabbath appear in the above passage? The Scripture says specifically God ceased. It says nothing about worship nor anyone else's participation which would include Adam. Problem is Adam hadn't worked 6 days yet. More problems exist with the Deuteronomy version of the command. I will give you that the Sabbath is based on the 7th day of creation.

Also to note: The 4th Commandment is a reminder to observe it as holy, but their observance is not what made it holy. It was made holy by God resting from creating.

So why aren't you incompliance with the command?

O_O Huh?? I've repeatedly said that without grace, obeying the law is not possible at all. It says so in Romans 8:6-8!
How can you possibly think I believe keeping the law grants us salvation? Grace saves us and enables us to obey the law. Being able to obey the law is a result of the gift of salvation and not it is not the means of salvation. You've got to be saved first before you can be subject to the law of God!

Romans 8 says nothing about being able to obey the law. There's not a single passage in all the Bible even throwing a teeny tiny hint about being able to obey the law. In fact it explicitly states no one does or can. The Psalms, prophets and Romans back me up here.

If you are under the law, you are not subject to the law.
If you are under grace, grace empowers you to be subject to the law.
(Romans 8:6-8)

Obviously you have no concept of the word under.

Did you mean another verse? Because I'm not seeing the relationship to what I wrote.


... ?? God was the one who wrote the 10C for Moses and Jesus is the Word of God and is God! I'm frankly surprised you didn't make the connection. Jesus is God. God gave the law to Moses. Jesus gave the law to Moses.

Please explain John 15:10 for us. My understanding of what you wrote above is anti-Trinitarian and thus makes you ineligible to post in this section of the forum.

I tithe my salary to my local conference. The rest of the details are here: https://www.adventist.org/en/information/official-statements/guidelines/article/go/-/use-of-tithe/

Money isn't tithe under the Levitical law of the tithe. Thus you rewrite the Bible to fit your idea. Eh don't worry to much about it. Most if not all religious organizations do the same. The same passage from Malachi is abused.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Well, they are two different nouns implying different types of people.
In Ex 12:48, the noun is 'gare' which are foreigners that lived among the Hebrews and integrated among them.
In Isaiah 56:6, the noun is 'nekar' which are foreigners of other nations. ie. non-Hebrew living in their own land with their own pagan religious system. eg. Egyptians in Egypt, Moabites in Moab, Native Americans in North America, Indians in India etc.

What I said remains true.

bugkiller

 

[disciple1]

So you are confessing that you will disregard any law that God has instituted?

Can you explain to us why a God who is perfect and is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, changes His mind so much about His laws? Does this ever changing God give you confidence in what He has said He will do...? I mean, if He can change His mind about something as important as laws, maybe He will change His mind about sending His Son again? How can you be sure?

John chapter 13
34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
1 peter chapter 4
8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9 Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling. 10 Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms. 11 If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God. If anyone serves, they should do so with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Cribstyl]

I'd love to see proof of this claim.

bugkiller

Scriptures does not support his claims.
He'll probable add other false claims to refute. You know the drill.

 

[Cribstyl]

I don't know why you bring this up, because I was saying circumcision came from the time of Abraham. If a boy was born on a Thursday night or Friday morning, then he was circumcised on the Sabbath (Friday evening to Saturday evening).

My response was to these claims you've made.
You said: "Firstly, I hope you understand that the Sabbath's sanctity did not come as a result of the 4th Commandment, but with Creation."

"Secondly, this proves you are not a disciple of Jesus. This isn't an attack on your character or the like, I'm stating objective fact based on the definition of "disciple". A disciple did, said and believed the same things in the exact same manner of their teacher. It's how Jesus' disciples were recognised. The purpose of discipleship was akin to making carbon copies of the rabbi. Since Jesus kept the Sabbath holy, and you don't then you literally can't call yourself a disciple."

We disagree with your point that Sabbath was sanctified at creation.
The scripture says that God rested on the seventh day and blessed and sanctified it, because He rested from all His works. We understand the God's seventh day does not imply the 14th, 21st, 28th or weekly seventh days. The scripture say that God rested because He was FINISHED with all His work.
I asked you to respond about Jesus saying, that "circumcision was passed down from the fathers". Jesus' claim was in response to breaking the Sabbath. You have little to say about our requests, but you continue to make unsupported claims.

He gave it to them, yes, but not in the sense of making the 7th day just for them. God kept calling it "my sabbaths".

Another unsupported claim in bold above)
That cant be true if God says " ... a sign between me and you." Secondly, God calling it "my Sabbaths" does not change the fact that; Sabbath was made for man to keep, not for God or Jesus to keep.

As for exclusivity, I had previously pointed out God's desire:
Isaiah 56:6 Also the aliens, that join themselves to the LORD, to minister unto Him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from profaning it, and holdeth fast by My covenant:


I believe Isaiah 56:6 applies.


Like I had written in the quote, I did not mean it as a slight to the character. Before being upset with me, you should look up what a rabbi's disciple meant historically. It's fine, it wasn't an insult if you had lived in those times - you can be a believer and be saved without being a disciple. Being a disciple isn't the criteria to be saved. When Jesus healed the demoniac at Gedarenes of demon possession, the man begged Jesus to let him follow Him (it was the euphemism of the times to become a disciple), but Jesus told him to go back home and spread the good news of what God did for him. A disciple is a believer + extra-normal dedication in mirroring everything the rabbi did. All are called to have faith in Jesus, but not all are called to be disciples. The thief on the cross was saved, but he hadn't had time to become a disciple.


Yes, it's true that God never stops working on the Sabbath. Hebrews 4 said that when He rested, He rested from all His works. He did all His resting at the end of Creation week. A disciple shouldn't be using the Sabbath as a day of sleeping in, because Jesus went to church and went around preaching and healing.

More claims without scriptures to support your possition. Have you read the Sabbath commandments? REST, DO NO WORK.

 

[Mb_C]

John chapter 13
34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
1 peter chapter 4
8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9 Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling. 10 Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others, as faithful stewards of God’s grace in its various forms. 11 If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God. If anyone serves, they should do so with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.

Indeed, we will be known to other people for our love for one another.

The greatest testimony to a changed life is a change in compassion towards others.

The Sabbath isn't about our connection with people, it's about our connection with God.

I think it would help the discussion to know what you believe is the reason why God gave the 10C to Israel in the first place.

 

[bugkiller]

Scriptures does not support his claims.
He'll probable add other false claims to refute. You know the drill.

Yeppers I do.

bugkiller

 

[Sophrosyne]

Scriptures does not support his claims.
He'll probable add other false claims to refute. You know the drill.

It is like instead of shooting down a missile that has a lock on you, instead you throw out chaff hoping the missile will be "drawn away" from the target.

 

[Mb_C]

Foreigners who "join" themselves are NO longer foreigners and NO LONGER GENTILES upon that act.

This is an interesting view you have.

Paul wrote that Gentiles who believe the gospel are wild olive branches grafted to Israel (Romans 11:17). The author of Hebrews wrote that the new covenant was made to Israel (Hebrews 8:10-11).

Give me a break.... how can one "vandalize" a day of the week.... what udder nonsense.

You're probably thinking vandalism to only be spray-painting a wall type of act.
Isaiah 56:6 uses the Hebrew word chalal, which as a verb means "pollute/desecrate/profane".
These are vandalism acts.

How does someone do it? By not treating it as holy. I don't know about you, but 'desecrate' sounds worse that 'vandalism'.

The Sabbath Day was so important that is was FORGOTTEN throughout the New Testament pretty much no importance attached to anyone BUT Jesus keeping it.

All that matters is how Jesus kept it. Just because the Sabbath wasn't written in the other epistles, doesn't mean they didn't keep the Sabbath holy. It's neither proof for nor against keeping the Sabbath holy. What we do know is that Jesus kept the Sabbath holy.

All this means nothing as Jesus himself reiterated 9 of the 10 commandments which are pretty much contained in the "love your neighbor" commandment.

And "Love the Lord your God".

Too bad the Sabbath day was IGNORED by Jesus as an "important" commandment.....

Let's be honest about it - Jesus didn't mention "Do not bow down before graven images" or "Do not take the name of the Lord in vain" to the rich young man either.

even when asked what was the GREATEST commandment Jesus didn't even give the Sabbath a mention.

Let's be honest about it. When Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment is, He said:
Matthew 22
37Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
38This is the first and greatest commandment.
39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

What this means, is that the laws: "remember to keep the Sabbath holy", "do not steal", slave laws, laws of personal tithe and Levitical tithe, etc. ALL attribute themselves to "Love the Lord your God" and "love your neighbour as yourself".

The fourth commandment is both "Love the Lord your God" and "love your neighbour as yourself". The blessing of the Sabbath rest was to extend to the non-Hebrews each of them knew.

Jesus said: "the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27)
You may not feel obligated to keep the Sabbath holy, but no one is obligated to accept Jesus as their Saviour either. The New Testament never calls accepting Jesus an obligation. It's something you choose to. The Sabbath is a blessing, not a burden.

You say that the Sabbath was only given to Israel. Not so. Isaiah 56:6 and Mark 2:27 and Romans 11:17 together say that Gentiles are free to be grafted onto that blessing if they so choose, for "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, ... for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

The Sabbath was never called a day to worship. It was called a day of "holy convocation". Worship is only part of it. Worship is to be done every day. The Sabbath is different. It's a time God put aside to soak in and reminisce the goodness of God and reflect on how we've let God work through us and increase our connection to Him. It's His promise that keeping the Sabbath holy is different from all the other days.

Why you folks are so fixated on a defunct commandment that Jesus didn't himself promote as part of Christianity nor did any of his chosen apostles promote the Sabbath Commandment is beyond me. It is like you are all worshiping the DAY itself instead of Jesus.

I worship Jesus and want to be His disciple, which is why I want to keep the Sabbath holy - because He did. The Spirit-filled life is about Jesus abiding in us, not just a belief in His sacrifice. If Jesus lives in us, our desire is to be like Him. Not to be saved, because salvation cannot come from works; I do it because He abides in me.

If the same Rabbis would also say that the Sabbath Day isn't but Israel's (Jews) would you IGNORE that?

I would, because that's not what Isaiah 56:6 says nor is there a command by God that Gentiles cannot keep the Sabbath holy.

nope..... Paul didn't promote Judaism at all, and you purposely IGNORE Paul when he says that those who choose to be under the Law will be judged by it and those who choose grace will NOT.

"under the law" is so frequently thrown about, but you don't even know what it means.
That phrase cannot mean those who are obedient to it. Here's the contradiction that happens when you think it does:
"what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."
If we are obedient to the law, how can we be guilty before God?
Romans 8:6-8 says that the mind that is transformed by the Spirit is obedient to the law.

If he was promoting Judaism then why do you IGNORE most of their commandments while saying that Paul wants us to be full blown Jews... you contend he wants us to be partial Jews keeping this and that commandment...... HOGWASH I say.

To the contrary. Paul never said not to. For some, Paul said the shadow was accomplished in Jesus. The sacrificial system is now transferred to the heavenly sanctuary. Are there specifics you want to get into? I mean some of them, like the law about uncleanness after [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], can't apply directly because the sacrificial system is now in heaven. So, what bothers you?

 

[Mb_C]

I don't buy personal translations, as you ignore my personal translations why should I buy yours?

Because your analogy didn't factor in that for the new covenant, Gentiles are grafted in - the new covenant isn't made with Gentiles, they are brought in.

 

[Bob S]

Because your analogy didn't factor in that for the new covenant, Gentiles are grafted in - the new covenant isn't made with Gentiles, they are brought in.

Jesus told the disciples to go into all the World and spread the Gospel to all nations. It is absolutely true that He came for all mankind.

Brought (grafted) in to what? Remember Jews lost their covenant and now come to Jesus just as gentiles do.
John 15

 

[Mb_C]

Jesus told the disciples to go into all the World and spread the Gospel to all nations. It is absolutely true that He came for all mankind.

Yes, He came for all mankind. However, it is through Israel that it came.

Brought (grafted) in to what? Remember Jews lost their covenant and now come to Jesus just as gentiles do.
John 15

The vine has always been Jesus. The native branches were Israel Jews. Because of their unbelief, they were removed and the wild olive branches are grafted on. However, the native branches are only the people. The system which they were attached to was God. Gentiles upon belief get grafted to the same system they were removed from. The covenant was only the means through which they were connected to the vine. The system stayed the same. That is why Hebrews says that the new covenant is about God writing His law on our hearts and minds, but it is still made to Israel.

Jesus gave Moses the laws, so that the Hebrews could be "a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation" (Exodus 19:6). The first covenant failed because it was based on humans promising to keep the law in their own strength ("all you have said, we will do"). The new covenant doesn't fail because now it is God promising "My laws will be put in your hearts and minds by Me". The laws were perfect. The people weren't. But God can put it in us perfectly if we let Him.

We get remarks like "you want to put Gentiles under bondage", but that is not what we're saying. We're saying: "If you let God put His law in your heart and mind, He will do so and you will be willingly obedient to the law of God". It's not for salvation, but part of the salvation package. God doesn't only justify; He sanctifies. "Let God do His thing, don't be afraid of it or shun it and don't call it legalism". If God decides He now wants you to keep His Sabbath holy, then He will guide you to it. But do not tell others doing it makes them lose the grace of God - it is the grace of God that convinces of the beauty and blessing in the Sabbath. Have there been legalistic Seventh-day Adventists? Yes. However, the official foundational belief is that obedience to the law is a progressive thing that comes from the workings of the Holy Spirit and not human effort.

 

[Sophrosyne]

This is an interesting view you have.

Paul wrote that Gentiles who believe the gospel are wild olive branches grafted to Israel (Romans 11:17). The author of Hebrews wrote that the new covenant was made to Israel (Hebrews 8:10-11).

Paul doesn't equate Israel being grafted INTO at all but rather Israel is one of the branches cut off for unbelief. It is only believers that are grafted and they are grafted in believe into the prince of peace (Jesus). Have you ever wondered why and olive branch is a symbol of peace?

You're probably thinking vandalism to only be spray-painting a wall type of act.
Isaiah 56:6 uses the Hebrew word chalal, which as a verb means "pollute/desecrate/profane".
These are vandalism acts.

How does someone do it? By not treating it as holy. I don't know about you, but 'desecrate' sounds worse that 'vandalism'.

desecrating a physical structure and applying the same reason to something not physical but rather a ceremony that is performed is nowhere near the same thing.... keep trying to convince yourself of this all you want to though I'm not buying into it.

All that matters is how Jesus kept it. Just because the Sabbath wasn't written in the other epistles, doesn't mean they didn't keep the Sabbath holy. It's neither proof for nor against keeping the Sabbath holy. What we do know is that Jesus kept the Sabbath holy.

Arguments from silence to bring mandatory rules upon people is tyranny, especially when people aren't TOLD they must keep these rules by their rulers. I don't bow to the Levitical priesthood of Israel so I don't have to keep their rules I bow to Jesus and he never ever told us to keep rules of Israel nor did any of his appointed apostles tell Gentiles we must keep ALL the rules of Judaism.... nor did they claim we were to keep parts of the rules of Israel either. And to stave off another argument used to reply to this post just because some rules are similar to those of the Law doesn't mean they ARE the Law itself just like if Canada and the US have similar speed limit laws in school zones if Canada says 20mph and we saw 25mph it doesn't mean going 25 in America will get you in trouble in the US because their Laws don't apply here.

And "Love the Lord your God".

Telling a believer in Christ they must love God is redundant, if one doesn't love God then truly they don't believe in the first place and those who don't believe what can keeping the Law profit them regarding salvation? none

Let's be honest about it - Jesus didn't mention "Do not bow down before graven images" or "Do not take the name of the Lord in vain" to the rich young man either.

Jesus didn't mention not speeding in school zones or molesting your children either so to be honest the 10 commandments fall way short in those two areas also. The only solution is to love your neighbor and those who ARE believers shouldn't be interested in idolatry or calling God names their heart should be already pointed towards loving all. God included.

Let's be honest about it. When Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment is, He said:
Matthew 22
37Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
38This is the first and greatest commandment.
39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

What this means, is that the laws: "remember to keep the Sabbath holy", "do not steal", slave laws, laws of personal tithe and Levitical tithe, etc. ALL attribute themselves to "Love the Lord your God" and "love your neighbour as yourself".

You were doing good until you put words in Jesus mouth that he didn't say which isn't HONEST at all... but rather deceptive and DISHONEST and breaking a commandment to not LIE.

The fourth commandment is both "Love the Lord your God" and "love your neighbour as yourself". The blessing of the Sabbath rest was to extend to the non-Hebrews each of them knew.

Jesus said: "the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27)
You may not feel obligated to keep the Sabbath holy, but no one is obligated to accept Jesus as their Saviour either. The New Testament never calls accepting Jesus an obligation. It's something you choose to. The Sabbath is a blessing, not a burden.

You say that the Sabbath was only given to Israel. Not so. Isaiah 56:6 and Mark 2:27 and Romans 11:17 together say that Gentiles are free to be grafted onto that blessing if they so choose, for "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, ... for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

The Sabbath was never called a day to worship. It was called a day of "holy convocation". Worship is only part of it. Worship is to be done every day. The Sabbath is different. It's a time God put aside to soak in and reminisce the goodness of God and reflect on how we've let God work through us and increase our connection to Him. It's His promise that keeping the Sabbath holy is different from all the other days.


I worship Jesus and want to be His disciple, which is why I want to keep the Sabbath holy - because He did. The Spirit-filled life is about Jesus abiding in us, not just a belief in His sacrifice. If Jesus lives in us, our desire is to be like Him. Not to be saved, because salvation cannot come from works; I do it because He abides in me.


I would, because that's not what Isaiah 56:6 says nor is there a command by God that Gentiles cannot keep the Sabbath holy.


"under the law" is so frequently thrown about, but you don't even know what it means.
That phrase cannot mean those who are obedient to it. Here's the contradiction that happens when you think it does:
"what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."
If we are obedient to the law, how can we be guilty before God?
Romans 8:6-8 says that the mind that is transformed by the Spirit is obedient to the law.


To the contrary. Paul never said not to. For some, Paul said the shadow was accomplished in Jesus. The sacrificial system is now transferred to the heavenly sanctuary. Are there specifics you want to get into? I mean some of them, like the law about uncleanness after [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], can't apply directly because the sacrificial system is now in heaven. So, what bothers you?

This means nothing to proving your point or disproving mine and a waste of my time. If you are going to go on rants and misrepresent Jesus' own words I have nothing left to say to you.

 

[disciple1]

Sadly, that's what you don't understand...He not only fulfilled the Law but He is able to empower His people to obey it.

This is what happened when people tried to obey the law.
Romans chapter 9 verses 30-Romans chapter 10 verse 4
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written: See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame. Brothers my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are Zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own the did not submit to God's righteousness, Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

 

[disciple1]

Indeed, we will be known to other people for our love for one another.

The greatest testimony to a changed life is a change in compassion towards others.

The Sabbath isn't about our connection with people, it's about our connection with God.

I think it would help the discussion to know what you believe is the reason why God gave the 10C to Israel in the first place.

God gave all the law to lead us to Christ both new testament and old.

 

[Sophrosyne]

God gave all the law to lead us to Christ both new testament and old.

Actually God gave Israel the Law, Gentiles were lead to Christ without the Law as they were a law unto themselves.