Why do Christians have trouble with accepting Evolution?

[Faith77]

You have strange choices of words. I did NOT say TOE is infallible. All I said was, its true. The evidence proves it. You can trust the direct word of God, left behind in the stars, the rocks, and the genomes.

It's perfectly simple to prove the Bible supports evolution. The proof goes like this.

a) Evolution is true (scientifically proven)
b) The bible is infallible (faith based axiom)
c) Therefore the Bible supports evolution. An iron clad, absolutely logical proof. There is no flaw in this deduction.

I leave the detailed exegesis of the Bible to show it consistent with evolution as an exercise for the reader.

I have not seen this before. Certainly, no deductive flaw in the logical argument. It's amazing how quick people are to believe illogical arguments just because the conclusion is something they already believe, or dismiss logical arguments, because the conclusion is not a palatable one. As far as your argument goes, what some don't accept is the first premise. But the reasons they don't often have nothing to do with logic or reasoning. It's simply the result of a previous bias, which is very very hard to change, because the stakes are high. To change beliefs is to change social support structures, and to change that makes one very vulnerable to isolation, rejection and depressed moods.

I myself found it very hard to believe that evolution could be true, until I looked at the evidence, from both sides. When I only looked at literature from creation science, I did not know what evolution really was and believed all the arguments put forward by the creationists. It was only when I had access to other evidence that it all came together. It also made sense that Genesis wasn't meant to be taken literally. To read something that wasn't meant to be read in the way it was intended is to miss the message of the author - I hate it when my children do that. I dare not do that with God. I dare not align with untruths when God is a God of truth.

So here I am, an evangelical Christian, from a typical Western Christian denomination, who used to spout the same things that the creationists say, but now have no trouble believing that evolution is true (based on the large body of evidence which is difficult to dismiss unless truth doesn't matter and only religious stubbornness does) and God sits on the Throne. Thanks, too, to your comments, as well as those of Hoghead.

 

[Colter]

Faith -- and fact.

Blind faith evolutionism - is just junk science combined with 'wishful thinking' --

The Bible is right -- evolutionism is wrong.

In a discussion such as this "details matter".




And of course we already know - nobody designs or builds airplanes.

I think we have already heard this one before. How is this helping evolutionism?

Far beyond our "technology" to replicate --

He who designed that -- also designed heaven and has foretold the fact of the Rev 20 lake of fire.

"biology is the study of complicated things that appear to have been designed for a purpose.”
The Blind Watchmaker, 1996, p. 1.

Dawkins illustrates the point that a sufficiently talented “story teller” can spin a story to convince himself to ignore the observations in nature where we can see complicated biological systems that appear to have been designed for a purpose.


"biology is the study of complicated things that appear to have been designed for a purpose.”

God did indeed create the life that evolved. We have tons of evidence in the fossil record.

YEC was speculation on the part of Hebrew writers for which there is NO evidence at all.

 

[KWCrazy]

You can trust the direct word of God, left behind in the stars, the rocks, and the genomes.

So you can read the Stars but you can't read the Bible?

a) Evolution is a theory of origins.
b) The bible is infallible. It is the word of God.
c) The infallible word of God contradicts every claim of evolution and presents a world created in its mature state, then repopulated about 4,500 years ago after a global flood. Contradictory proofs cannot both be true.
d) Therefore, evolution is false. This is an iron clad, absolutely logical proof. There is no flaw in this deduction.

 

[Colter]

So you can read the Stars but you can't read the Bible?

a) Evolution is a theory of origins.
b) The bible is infallible. It is the word of God.
c) The infallible word of God contradicts every claim of evolution and presents a world created in its mature state, then repopulated about 4,500 years ago after a global flood. Contradictory proofs cannot both be true.
d) Therefore, evolution is false. This is an iron clad, absolutely logical proof. There is no flaw in this deduction.

The Bible is only infallible to people who make an idol or fetish out of it. Hence, any reality that contradicts the Bible must be dismissed to perpetuate the false teaching by church government that God wrote what they themselves wrote.

 

[Hieronymus]

The Bible is only infallible to people who make an idol or fetish out of it.

You make a liar out of God.

 

[Hieronymus]

So you can read the Stars but you can't read the Bible?

a) Evolution is a theory of origins.
b) The bible is infallible. It is the word of God.
c) The infallible word of God contradicts every claim of evolution and presents a world created in its mature state, then repopulated about 4,500 years ago after a global flood. Contradictory proofs cannot both be true.
d) Therefore, evolution is false. This is an iron clad, absolutely logical proof. There is no flaw in this deduction.

Premise b) needs strong evidence though.

 

[Colter]

You make a liar out of God.

Never, the Bible was written by men who didn't even claim to be writing by inspiration. I would only be making, as ou say, a liar, out of the control freaks in religion that promote their writings as Gods. The people who killed Jesus knew the truth but they were moral cowards.

It was done to you and so you do it to others.

 

[Hieronymus]

Never,

Another lie.

 

[Extraneous]

To choose mans wisdom over scripture, this is apostasy. It doesnt glorify God but man. God has made mans wisdom foolish as Paul teaches us. To accept all beliefs in the name of love and unity, this is apostasy as well. This fulfills 2 Timothy 4:3.

There is only one logical and spiritual thing we can do, which is to mind only spiritual things, i.e., to mind Christ and him alone, and agree only on that and nothing else.

 

[Luke17:37]

To choose mans wisdom over scripture, this is apostasy. It doesnt glorify God but man. God has made mans wisdom foolish as Paul teaches us. To accept all beliefs in the name of love and unity, this is apostasy as well. This fulfills 2 Timothy 4:3.

I agree that we aren't to choose man's wisdom over God's wisdom (as revealed to us through Scripture). The end of debasing God's authority is apostasy, but that doesn't mean that anyone who refuses to believe a certain element of Scripture is apostate yet. Apostasy is defined as falling away or denying the faith (to no return).

2 Thessalonians 2:3
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day [of the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, v. 1] will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Timothy 2:11-13
11 This is a faithful saying:
For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

There is only one logical and spiritual thing we can do, which is to mind only spiritual things, i.e., to mind Christ and him alone, and agree only on that and nothing else.

This is also skewed if we mind not the physical things God spoke to us about. That was the error of Gnosticism. We need to believe the entire Word of God, which instructs us on both the physical and the spiritual things.

 

[Extraneous]

I agree that we aren't to choose man's wisdom over God's wisdom (as revealed to us through Scripture). The end of debasing God's authority is apostasy, but that doesn't mean that anyone who refuses to believe a certain element of Scripture is apostate yet. Apostasy is defined as falling away or denying the faith (to no return).

2 Thessalonians 2:3
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day [of the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, v. 1] will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Timothy 2:11-13
11 This is a faithful saying:
For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.



This is also skewed if we mind not the physical things God spoke to us about. That was the error of Gnosticism. We need to believe the entire Word of God, which instructs us on both the physical and the spiritual things.

If by "physical" things you mean we must not do evil things with our bodies, and we must take care of each other, then i would agree. However if you mean we must rule the world i would disagree.

 

[Extraneous]

It boils down to understanding the works of the flesh verses the fruit of the spirit. By understanding those things we can understand why the Lord and his apostles gave us the commands that they did.

We must also remember that the enemy controls this world, and our citizenship is in heaven. That is important as well. If we try to rule this world or be citizen of it, we will only be deceived by it. Its like eating the forbidden fruit of the tree i suppose, not that the world is that tree, but its about not obeying God, and wanting what he hasn't given to us. Satan is always there, in that place, ready to deceive us.

 

[Extraneous]

Anyone, in any denomination, who chooses to be a citizen of this world instead of heaven itself, will be deceived by this world. That's why we are called to be separate from this world (holy). The power of the enemy is in this world, not in heaven.

 

[Extraneous]

The deception, which comes by not giving up our earthly citizenship, is seen in the works of flesh. When we choose to be a citizen of this world we will end up in contention, division and strife, over worldly things, which are works of the flesh. If however we give up our lives, and our earthly citizenship, then what do we have to be contentious or divided about? Nothing. Only by abiding in Christ and Him alone can we truly be free from this world and begin to bear fruit.

 

[Luke17:37]

If by "physical" things you mean we must not do evil things with our bodies, and we must take care of each other, then i would agree. However if you mean we must rule the world i would disagree.

No, I mean, in addition to the spiritual things, we must also believe the physical things--what God told us about the universe (history and science), Adam's sin and its effects (especially death), Jesus' literal death and literal resurrection, His future bodily return, the future resurrection and gathering of the Church, Jesus' future reign on the earth with the saints, the resurrection of the rest of dead, eternal life (in an immortal body) in the physical New Heavens and the New Earth, and eternal death (in an immortal body) in the physical Lake of Fire.

I was afraid you were advocating a "spiritual" existence while denying the physical (a modern gnostic). Jesus clothed Himself in flesh, yet He was sinless. He was raised from the dead with a physical glorified body, as we will receive. Bodies and the earth aren't inherently sinful. God created it "very good." Sin's affects will be put away when Jesus reigns (first on the present earth, and then in the new heavens and the new earth).

 

[Extraneous]

No, I mean, in addition to the spiritual things, we must also believe the physical things--what God told us about the universe (history and science), Adam's sin and its effects (especially death), Jesus' literal death and literal resurrection, His future bodily return, the future resurrection and gathering of the Church, Jesus' future reign on the earth with the saints, the resurrection of the rest of dead, eternal life (in an immortal body) in the physical New Heavens and the New Earth, and eternal death (in an immortal body) in the physical Lake of Fire.

I was afraid you were advocating a "spiritual" existence while denying the physical (a modern gnostic). Jesus clothed Himself in flesh, yet He was sinless. He was raised from the dead with a physical glorified body, as we will receive. Bodies and the earth aren't inherently sinful. God created it "very good." Sin's affects will be put away when Jesus reigns (first on the present earth, and then in the new heavens and the new earth).

No, i believe Christ actually walked on earth as a man. I dont think that is symbolic, yet it is spiritual as all truth is spiritual. WE are commanded to be holy, and to give up our lives, and to forsake our earthly citizenship and seek heaven alone. IT matters not that Christ may come back and rule this earth, it matters not whether that is literal or figurative in meaning. All that matters is what we are commanded to do now. We are not suppose to love the world or the things in it, nor are we earthly citizens anymore. We do not mind earthly things but only spiritual. Its spiritual to feed the poor but not spiritual to fight over land, governments, or material things, or to be divided over such worldly things either. Look at Paul he was content whether full or hungry, and look at Acts 4, they shared all things, but they didnt fight over them, or seek help from politicians either which is covetousness. They either shared what they had, or were content when they had necessity, but never did they complain, or contend, or fight over worldly things such as nations, governments and material things.

 

[Extraneous]

I guess my words may seen confusing at times, because i talk a lot about symbolism and spirituality. I believe that Christ walked the earth. I believe in the exodus too. I believe however that there are spiritual truths hidden in those stories, they are seen in symbolism, and are seen with spiritual eyes. Some people try to see one but not the other, and that's a mistake. We must see both. Carnal people will see only symbolism so they can justify their carnal actions. Likewise, they can also see only the flesh or carnal part of the scripture but not the symbolic part also, and this likewise only justifies carnality rather than spiritualism. We have the right, the left, and then we have the correct way.

 

[Luke17:37]

No, i believe Christ actually walked on earth as a man. I dont think that is symbolic, yet it is spiritual as all truth is spiritual. WE are commanded to be holy, and to give up our lives, and to forsake our earthly citizenship and seek heaven alone. IT matters not that Christ may come back and rule this earth, it matters not whether that is literal or figurative in meaning. All that matters is what we are commanded to do now. We are not suppose to love the world or the things in it, nor are we earthly citizens anymore. We do not mind earthly things but only spiritual. Its spiritual to feed the poor but not spiritual to fight over land, governments, or material things, or to be divided over such worldly things either. Look at Paul he was content whether full or hungry, and look at Acts 4, they shared all things, but they didnt fight over them, or seek help from politicians either which is covetousness. They either shared what they had, or were content when they had necessity, but never did they complain, or contend, or fight over worldly things such as nations, governments and material things.

You said "all truth is spiritual" but then you agreed that Jesus actually walked on the earth as a man. There is physical truth as well, and that is okay. You say it doesn't matter if He comes back literally and rules the earth. I completely disagree with you. It does matter. He is definitely coming back in the flesh and definitely reigning. He will punish His enemies (Zechariah 14) and reign, and He will begin dismantling the effects of the curse and healing the earth (Isaiah 2, 11, 65, Ezekiel 47).

Consider this: if Jesus was never coming back in the flesh, life on this sin-cursed planet could continue forever and the wicked would never learn that God is God until they die. This is what the scoffers who disbelieve in God's special creation and the worldwide flood will say (2 Peter 3:3-9) ("Where is this coming he promised?"). Because they don't believe the clear teachings of the Bible on the beginning, it will provide a foundation to reject the clear teachings of the Bible on the end.

But He is coming in the flesh, He will humble man (Psalms 2, Psalms 10), and He will physically reign in Zion. He will heal the earth of the effects of sin. There was a beginning through Jesus Christ, and there will be an end through Jesus Christ.

 

[Extraneous]

So there are 3 different ways we can see scripture, but only one is right. However, its not so difficult really, because we don't need to understand all mysteries necessarily. All we need to do is follow Christ and His commands. We are commanded to give up our lives, and to give up our earthly citizenship. If we do not, we will follow one of the two paths which are wrong.

Look at these two scriptures. Do they contradict each other? No, not once you realize that there are 3 different ways to understand scripture, but only one is right. Also, we must understand that although being spiritual means to be a citizen of heaven and not earth, we are still commanded to love each other, and our enemies, and to share what we have with each other. It all makes sense, although it appears to be a contradiction.

Proverbs 4:27 Do not turn to the right or the left;
Remove your foot from evil.

Isaiah 30:21 Your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying,
“This is the way, walk in it,”
Whenever you turn to the right hand
Or whenever you turn to the left.

 

[Colter]

Before Pangea began to break up there had been hundreds of millions of years of evolving life.